5scoutmom

Greaves -

The ASM brought his own son (16) along when he drove my son home. I read the scout rules and that's not a violation. However, when he left to do that (after yelling at my husband because we couldn't come and get him immediately - our car would not make the trip and they didn't give us time to try to find a friend who would loan us one), the CC had already left and he left the boys with 3 dads, known of whom is either committee or uniformed leadership. I don't want to get the ASM into trouble over that. As I have said, he is really an excellent ASM, very experienced in camping and scout skills. I don't believe it would serve the troop overall or the other boys to push him out of scouting.

My son refuses to say that he was cowering; it goes against his grain. He says "I'm not scared of them!" It was my 13 year old who told us about the cowering. I have not heard the adults' version yet, but from the way the ASM was screaming at my husband over the phone before they left the camp, I would be hard pressed to think he didn't yell at my son. I walked 10 feet away and still heard every word he said.

The only one I want out of this is the advisor to be off my son's case. I don't have a problem with anyone else being at the meeting.

I don't want to punish the ASM for one lapse in judgment, the same way I don't want my son to be punished for one lapse of judgment, either.

I can't approach the CC about removing the advisor. He hasn't even responded yet to my request that he not attend the meeting. They are good friends and hang out together outside of scouting.

My husband called the COR tonight. He is out of the country till next week.

If the SM can't prevail on the CC to keep the advisor from the meeting, there will be no meeting. That is my line in the sand.

Once my son's situation is settled, if we are still in the troop, I will address the advisor situation. If the advisor is not kept out of the loop, we will be out of the troop.

The "advisor" wasn't there and neither was I. However, as a parent, I am not putting my two cents in; I am an involved party. The SM wasn't on the trip. He is an involved and necessary party and his input is not putting his two cents in. Frankly, if the SM had been on the trip this would never have happened. He runs a tight but fair ship. You and the other people who have kindly responded to me are not putting in your two cents, you are giving solicited comments.

The "advisor" may be giving solicited advice to the CC and the ASM but not to me. He does NOT have my son's best interests at heart.

I don't want my troop to devolve. I want it to regroup and get stronger. We got a nice bridge class of 9 boys (including my youngest and "advisor's" youngest) and I am looking forward to another 7 years in the Troop. I will be here when my Life Scout has moved on to college.

I want this to be a learning experience for all of us.

Scoutfish -

I don't really think everyone is arrayed against my son - just the "advisor." People do kowtow to him because he has a position in Council.

The ASM admitted that he knew the SM didn't want him to announce it (he told the SM) but he was so angry that he did it, anyway. ASM's son is the single most annoying boy in the Troop. He hates scouting and is only in it because his dad loves the camping, etc. The boy would be very happy just to drop out and at 16 1/2 has not advanced beyond second class. My son has always dealt with him very well (ASM son's issues are very similar to those of my oldest son, who just couldn't function in scouts but is doing great in Venture crew, which is more laid back) and any favoritism my son might have gotten from the ASM is as a result of my son's general helpfulness with ASM's son, who is a year older than mine but in the same grade. However, the ASM also treats the "advisor's" son very well. Remember that I said earlier that "advisor's" son is a terrific kid and I am really fond of him. Actually, this ASM is very good with the boys as a general rule and I was shocked at what he did. He did go out of his way to be nice to my youngest at the last troop meeting but didn't apologize for upsetting him.

Again, I don't want to leave my troop. I just want this man out of my business and I want to put this episode behind us.

Scoutfish -

The friendship with ASM was damaged when he announced to all of the people present that my son had been "expelled" from Scouting despite having been told not to by the SM. He, as an adult, chose to subject my 13 year old son to humiliation AND to reduce my youngest son (who, as I mentioned, had just bridged to the troop the night before and was on his first scout outing; he thought his brother had been taken to jail!) to tears. The son who was involved had already been dropped off at home and wasn't even there. NOBODY but my 13 year old, the ASM and the CC knew what had happened at that point. It was the broadcasting of the incident around the camp that has damaged the friendship. I hope that it can be repaired but my husband is so hurt by it that I don't know if they will ever be as close again.

The "advisor" is NOT the COR. He is on the committee for the Troop and has a volunteer position at council.

So far, it seems that people agree that my son should apologize. That is a given. I don't think he was right. I do think his comment to his brother was not intended to be heard by anyone but his brother, but it was. I told him the walls have ears and apparently the woods do, too. THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK. He was not trying to get out of the cleaning job; in fact, he and his brother were on their way to the alternate location, pots in hand, when the comment was made. Was it stupid? YES! Does it deserve discipline? YES. Does it warrant the level of reaction these people have given it? No and I believe that the "advisor" has stirred it up for his personal reasons.

There have been a couple of concrete suggestions in here as to appropriate discipline.

The 60 - 90 days mentioned as a suspension would take us to the end of this soout year. I would not have a problem with 60 days, 90 days is pushing it. An apology to the CC is a given; however, since his offense was committed privately and not in front of the Troop, I don't believe an apology to the Troop is warranted. He was not the one who publicized the incident. I disapprove of the adults yelling at him, but I am not going to ask them to apologize to him. I assume that if he is suspended, he will lose his PL status; that is a reasonable consequence. An essay on the meaning of respect would be acceptable to me but since my son has a learning disability in writing, I am not going to suggest it. If they do, I will have him do it.

I am certainly not condoning my son's behavior, but from the evidence I have here, the adults did not act too well, either. The "advisor" was not even on the trip and he is putting his two cents in.

I guess my bottom line is - the discipline needs to be reasonable and appropriate and the "advisor" can not be involved in it.

My son enjoys the crew as an adjunct but the Troop is his home.

Frankly, in scrolling through the topics here, I have seen that people have allowed a scout who offered pot to other scouts to remain without consequence, have not imposed discipline nearly as severe as we are speaking of for my son on scouts who fought at camp, and did nothing to a soout who displayed a joint on a camping trip (the SPL took it away but didn't tell an adult till a month later).

I don't want to leave my Troop - we were here before the "advisor" and our youngest sons are the same age.

And as an afterthought -

I mentioned his anxiety disorder and his IEP only because it is something that has been fully disclosed to all adults involved for years. They know that he has difficulties when backed against a wall; we have had meetings and brainstormed about how to handle this IF it came up, which it never has in five years before this. I can't figure out why they didn't just take a cool down period at the camping trip and come back to it. My 13 year old said that they just started yelling at his brother and yelling and that he was cowering in a corner. None of the adults has told me what happened other than my son was "disrespectful." There was no physical violence or threat and the only other scout who was around at the time was my other son.

If I pull him out, I am not running away from a problem. I will only pull him out if we can't resolve this satisfactorily. The "advisor's" presence at this meeeting is a deal breaker for me and my husband. I can't stop the CC or ASM from talking to him, but it is utter disrespect for my family if they insist on having him at the meeting.

Our COR would be a good choice to participate. He has worked with my son on a couple of merit badges and knows him well. I would have no objection to his participation. He is a fair person and I would accept his mediation as well. The ONLY person I have an issue with is this "sdvisor." He has not earned MY respect.

I have no plans to challenge any disciplinary action that is fair and is rooted in scout ethics. I just wish that this could have been more of a learning experience, rather than a slap down by someone who is bigger and older.

My son has been co-registered with the Venture crew since he turned 14. He has also been hired to staff at summer camp this year; he was a CIT last year. He is not and has not been a discipline problem out of the ordinary before this. He is currently a PL and has been a den chief, an APL, a troop instructor and a troop guide. I assume he will be losing his PL status and that is fine.

The BOR at which he was held up was two years ago. The reason the "advisor" gave was that my son MUMBLED! Not that he said anything wrong or his answers were incorrect, but that he mumbled; he was TWELVE at the time. The two other dads there told me much later on that this man had pushed them and pushed them until they agreed that my son should not be passed on his BOR. They were afraid he would retaliate against their boys. By the time they told me, he had been passed by a different BOR so all I did was ask the SM never to assign the "advisor" to a BOR involving any of my sons again.

The CC is not picking up the phone when we call. He emailed us that he would talk to us at the meeting and not before. I will have my son apologize before the meeting. My son was banned from the troop meetings so I couldn't bring him there to apologize and I am not bringing him to the CC's home. I agree that my son should apologize and he plans to. I have spoken with him at great length about how he should just suck it up and apologize because the CC deserves respect as an adult. I said that it doesn't matter, you still have to treat him with respect. He is 30 odd years older than you and he has earned respect for his life experiences.

I just still can't figure out how my son's general stupid comment to his brother morphed into this debacle. It seems to me like the CC had his feelings hurt because nobody has said word one to me about anything specific that my son said that was disrespectful. From what I can gather, he was told that he had to respect the leaders and he said "Respect is earned, not conferred." He did NOT speak in a rude tone, did not raise his voice, did not swear or curse.

The "advisor" has always been an enemy. The CC has been ok till this point and, as I said before, the ASM was one of my husband's best friends till this happened. I was always able to deal with the "advisor" before but now if the balance tips, I will pull the boys out.

It's just a shame. This boy has 5 years in the troop and my next one has 3 in. Many of their friends are from scouting; it's a large part of their identity. For my little guy, it could be ok. His best friend went to the other troop in town because it's meeting night didn't conflict with his sports schedule.

I don't have a problem with appropriate discipline. I know the Scout Law and oath are the code, what I meant is that our troop has no formal disciplinary code that I know of. I have never seen one and I have never seen the troop by-laws, either. I don't want these people making up punishments and I won't stand for any that are purely punitive, rather than intended to help him learn and grow as a scout and a person. A suspension and a banning from Troop activities till the end of the year would be acceptable. Even the boys who had a knife fight at sleep away camp two years ago (one of them the son of this ASM) were not treated this harshly! I will pull the boys if they put him on 'Animal House" double secret probation.

I in no way believe that my son is blameless. I do believe, knowing the personalities involved, that he was goaded. My 13 year old said that they asked him the same thing and he just said 'Yes, of course I respect the leaders." His older brother mouthed off and said "respect is earned."

I am sorry for rambling. This has just upset me so much. I think of our Troop as an extension of our family and to be embroiled in a fight like this is not what we want. Thank you all for listening and for your advice.

i just found out from my husband that the "advisor" is a committee member in our troop, but so am I.

There is another troop that I could put my youngest boy into and a Venture crew for the older 2 but we all LOVE our SM and don't want to leave him. This "advisor" actually managed to get our SM suspended two years ago on bogus charges (as witness the fact that the SM is back in place after the investigation was done). I have been begging the SM to move over to the Venture crew as the leader there wants to give up the post, but ...

The saddest part about it is that the "advisor's" son is such a great kid! Everyone in my family is incredibly fond of him. I am just getting to know his younger brother and he is also a good kid. They just have a jerk for a dad.

Thanks for your comments. I was starting to wonder if it was just me.

To make a very long story short, my 15 year old son, a life Scout, was overheard telling his younger brother, a First class scout, that washing pots on a camping trip to the point of sterilization was stupid because they were just going to be washed again at home.

This comment somehow devolved into my son saying that "Respect is earned, not conferred." Our committee chair took that as a personal insult and when my son refused to back down, he was brought home from the trip by the ASM. The CC had already left as he was not staying over in any regard.

My son says that he never said that he didn't respect the CC but he doesn't. He admits that he refused to tell the CC that he respected him just because of his status as a CC and an adult. He does/did respect the ASM involved. My son is diagnosed with an anxiety disorder and has an IEP at school. When he feels threatened, he won't back down and he can be defiant. Both of these men have known him for years and are aware of his issues.

To compound matters, when the ASM returned to camp after bringing my son home, he told all present (including my youngest son, who had just bridged into the troop the night before!) that my son was "expelled" from scouting forever! I found out later that the SM, who had been contacted, had specifically told the ASM not to say that and that my son was not being expelled.

To date, neither adult has spoken with us. A meeting is set for next week.

There are two separate but intertwined issues here. One is that out troop has no code of conduct so there is nothing to base an offense or a punishment on. We have spoken with our son and he was disciplined by us with the loss of certain privileges that were important to him. I believe that a suspension of one month and an apology to the CC is warranted. The SM tells me that the CC and the ASM, with their "advisor" (more on him later) want my son to be placed on a zero tolerance permanent probation which will result in him being permanently expelled if he ever does anything they deem disrespectful again.

As to the "advisor." He is a dad in our troop who has single-handedly tried to derail our son's progress at every turn. It is well known that he dislikes my son and my husband. The feelings are mutual. When the current CC was SM, he placed this man on my son's BOR for Life and he convinced the other members of the BOR to fail my son (he holds a position in our council as advancement chair and used his experience to bulldoze the other parents, who told me later that they would have passed my son if not for this man's statements). This "advisor" was not present on the camping trip at issue. I have now been told that CC and ASM have been discussing this incident with him and the email about the meeting was cc'ed to him and indicated that he would be attending. The SM asked the CC not to have him there, but the CC refused. I sent an email requesting that this man not be at the meeting. I have not had a response yet. My husband spoke with our Council Executive who said that he would inform this man to stay away if we requested it but he preferred that we try to work it out. However, we can't work it out if the CC won't respond to our emails or answer our calls.

Does anyone have any advice, either about appropriate discipline or how to keep this man out of my son's life? Note that I do feel that my son should have a consequence. Even though I believe he was goaded into his outburst, he is a teenager and needs to show respect for adults just because they are adults. If there is a probation period, I think it should last only till the end of this scouting year (about 3 months). He has already missed troop meetings and a scouting activity pending the outcome.

Also, it is our inclination to keep our son away from the meeting. At the SM's request, we are bringing him but have not decided if he will come in or wait outside till the adults finish discussing it first. Any suggestions on that?

Lastly, we have informed the SM but not the CC that we will not participate in any meeting if the "advisor" is there.

Frankly, I am so angry that I am on the verge of pulling all three of my boys out of scouting altogether, after a dozen years in the program. However, my son the Life Scout wants to earn his Eagle award.

I am so glad to have found this forum since there is nobody IRL I can discuss this with who has enough knowledge of scouting but isn't involved in our troop or pack.

Thank you.