5scoutmom

Just to respond to the Webelos at a Camporee issue - for some years, our district has invited 2nd year webelos to spend the day at camporee. They do not camp out with the scouts.

Last year, they did a Jamboree where scouts and cubs both camped but the campgrounds were on opposite sides of the venue.

Everyone was happy and the rules were not broken.

UPDATE:

The meeting to discuss my 2 youngest sons' return to the troop was held in early January. The meeting ended with the COR saying he would like to see all 3 boys back in. CC and ASM said they would get back to us.

Three weeks later, having not heard back from them, we took the 2 youngest boys to another troop. Two of the 3 leaders know my expelled son from summer camp and the 3rd has only heard good things about them. My son is still not interested in being in a troop but is happy in the venture crew. We are hoping he will join this new troop.

Today was scout sabbath at the CO of our crew, as well as our former troop and the pack. In years past, Scoutdad has cooked bacon, sausage, eggs, peppers and onions and the like for the congregation of our CO to say thank you. In November, the pack (Scoutdad is ACM and webelos leader) and crew voted to allocate money to cover this. The troop refused to participate and said it would take care of bagels and coffee. Over the past month, CC, ASM and the advisor all put enormous pressure on the CM to tell Scoutdad he wouldn't be allowed to cook and only bagels should be served. CM said that the Pack committee had voted and that was that.

Advisor showed up early, came into the kitchen and stormed out when he saw us cooking. One of the scouts who is good friends with my sons and is always at my house was helping; advisor yelled at him to get in to the church for the service.

CC showed up with younger son; son who is SPL had a review course to attend and did not come. CC did not enter the kitchen, did not say hello to me or Scoutdad and when the service was over, dragged his son out. The boy wanted some bacon and his dad loudly told him that he could not have any.

ASM had a family commitment and did not attend.

Two moms asked where my boys have been; their sons are 6th graders like my younges and one has 2 younger boys in the pack. She told me she is not happy with what is going on. I told them about the new troop we joined. My sons were very impressed by the fact that the leaders did not hover over the activities and allowed the boys to lead the meeting. It was something new for them and for us.

Seeing the behavior of these adults was confirmation that we made the right call. We were weloomed to the committee of the new troop and the boys will be attending their first camping trip on the anniversary of last year's disastrous trip.

One last point - in the other thread, someone said that my son had made his comments to CC's son. That is incorrect. It was CC himself who asked my son if he respected him. My son gave his answer. The only people there at the time were my two sons, CC and ASM. CC's son only heard about what my son said because his father told him. I should also point out that my son had been in the pack and troop with this man for TEN years before this and had never said word one to him about respect and he never would have if he had not been asked a direct question. I said to him recently, why didn't you just lie or deflect the question and he said "You and dad have taught me to be honest. He asked me a question and I gave him an answer. It is not my fault he didn't like what I had to say but I will not apologize for it even it means I never make Eagle Scout. I was asked, I didn't volunteer the information, I don't know what I did wrong besides hurt the feelings of someone who asked for it."

In our family, the subject is now closed. We will never be part of our former troop as long as these men are associated with it. I am just happy we found (after looking at about a half dozen others) a troop we feel comfortable with.

And, by the way, I don't really feel that 14 years of scouting is down the drain. That was just immense frustration speaking. I am happy to be back in active scouting mode again.

I am the mother and OP on the other post being discussed here.

To clarify, my son was willing to apologize for hurting "Person C's" feelings, although he expressed confusion about why C's feelings would be hurt by receiving an honest answer to a question he asked. What he was not willing to do was take back the opinion he expressed when one was demanded of him. He made the crack about washing the dishes to his brother (person B). Person C asked him what he said and he repeated it. Person C said "I gave that instruction. Don't you respect me?" My son said "No, I don't. Respect is earned, not conferred." That is the comment that got him expelled. He would never have made that comment had person C (an adult) not goaded him into it.

My son did apologize to Person C's son for hurting his feelings by insulting his dad, although sadly (and not unexpectedly) a serious fracture has been put into their long term friendship (which existed despite my son's feelings about his friend's dad, which had never been expressed before that moment). The loss of Person C's son's friendship, which I have not mentioned before, is a serious and lasting consequence of my son's actions and is one of the things he does regret about the incident.

Scoutfish - I really appreciate your take on this. I do believe an apology was necessary for the hurt, but I could not force my son to take back the honest expression of his feelings and the adults involved were unwilling to accept less than both, although as I said in my last and final post on the other topic - I do wish it had turned out differently.

I do believe in the power of apology, if sincere. I was also faced with the situation of my son (not this one) being in a fight at school with a bully. I refused to agree to have my son write an apology letter to the bully although I did have him thank and apologize to the boy who tried to defend him and was also suspended for fighting. He never got an apology from the bully.

and, scoutfish - several people have suggested to me that Person C should apologize to my son. I would not ask that and my son does not think it is needed, either.

Thank you.

Actually, I did not abandon the post. I slipped on the ice and hurt my hand and couldn't type for a couple of days...

Moosetracker - THANK YOU! You have described my son in the way that I couldn't. He is not mouthy and is not rude. He does see being made to apologize for something he doesn't feel he did wrong as being hypocritical. He was willing to apologize for hurting the CC's feelings but was not willing to say he respects him as a Scouter because he doesn't. I can't force him to, not without going against the principles of honesty that Scouting puts forth.

At this point, I have accepted that my son is not going back to this troop. He is happy in the Venture Crew and is looking forward to working at scout camp again this summer, where he will likely bunk with boys from the troop, as will my next son, who is also going to be working there.

My only concern now and the reason I came back to the post after we had decided that no amount of punishment was going to make him apologize is because ASM was starting to punish my younger boys for their brother's refusal to apologize and return to the troop. I was livid when I learned that ASM had told my sons they could not camp unless Scoutdad went because of their older brother's conduct. I did not think it was appropriate to tell that to my sons and he said it while standing far enough away from me that I couldn't hear it AND smiling. I thought he was telling them something good! He should have come to me because I was there. It was also inappropriate because ASM knows that Scoutdad now has a heart condition and was told by his doctor not to camp, at least for awhile.

Scoutdad did camp with the troop on a pretty regular basis until the last year or so, when he developed the heart condition. I do not camp because I have a physical disability that precludes it. However, we are involved parents and always have been. Both of us were den leaders (Tigers and Webelos, in fact, Scoutdad is still running a Webelos den that has no child of mine in it), Scoutdad is the ACM of our pack, I am the CC of our crew, we have run Scouting for Food for 10 years, run blood drives, been on troop committee, sat at BOR's, etc. There are many other ways to volunteer in a troop besides camping and Scoutdad and I did those in abundance. I was in the process of registering to be the troop's religous merit badge counselor for my religion, Scoutdad was signing up to be a counselor for several MBs as well. Those who say we are non-present parents who are allowing others to raise our children are incorrect. We were not on that camping trip because it was the first time in YEARS that we were going to have a weekend night alone without at least one child around and we didn't have a car capable of driving the 150 mile roundtrip to the campground. The leaders, by the way, had no issue with us not attending camping trips before this. As I said, we helped in many other ways.

Anyway, I am done - stick a fork in me.

My son is out of the troop he loved because he can't see past his teenaged self to just apologize, even if he doesn't mean it. My youngest son is probably out of scouting as well because we've already checked out 3 troops and haven't found a fit. We have 2 left and I hope we make a match at one of them. Otherwise, 14 years of family scouting is essentially down the drain.

Thanks to everyone who gave thoughtful comments, even if they were unfavorable. I have thought about all that each one of you has taken the time to write (including the critical ones!) and I do appreciate the different POV's.

I wish it hadn't turned out this way. I wish CC had not asked my son to repeat what he'd said, I wish my son had listened to his brother and made a joke about how I would make them wash the pots again no matter how well they scrubbed them, so why bother? instead of what he actually said. I wish my son could have swallowed his stubborn, 15 year old defiant pride and just apologized. I MISS MY TROOP, I MISS THE FRIENDS I MADE OVER 10 YEARS PLUS and I wish it hadn't ended this way, but I don't know what I could have done to change it without forcing my son to compromise his opinions.

Yours in scouting,

5scoutmom

I can't do that though it might make me feel better.

First of all, ASM's son would be delighted if he was thrown out of scouts. I've never met a boy who hates the program as much as this kid does. ASM loves it and he wants his son to, as well.

I've known ASM for years. In many areas, I respect him. He has amazing scouting skills, which he willingly shares with the boys in the troop. He is an asset to the troop in many ways and has been an asset to my boys in the past. I just hate that he is allowing his pigue over a 15 year old boy's comment (that wasn't even directed to him, my son still maintains that he does respect ASM, just not CC) to color his reactions to my other boys.

ASM and Scoutdad were great friends until this came up. They'd take the boys to the movies, iceskating, bike riding, etc. all the time. Scoutdad is hurt and misses his friend. ASM says he misses his friend and I don't doubt his sincerity. They were great friends. ASM's marriage is not a happy one. He uses scout trips to escape his wife, who is a nice person but they are very mismatched. If he didn't have scouting, I don't know what he'd do. I know, it's not my problem, but overall, he is an asset to the troop and I can't bring myself to humiliate him in public. However, ask me again after the upcoming meeting and I might have a different answer! LOL!

OTOH, the humiliation factor would be fun against CC but he has been smart enough not to talk to my other boys.

I understand your analogy about the dog, but it is not totally apt to this situation.

My youngest has been with his age cohort in the troop since Tigers. It's not just one friend, but closer to a dozen, that he has in the troop, along with some of the older boys (7th and 8th graders) that he's bonded with over the years in the pack and then the troop. My son does not do sports so Scouts is where he has his friends, his activities and his self-esteem (due to having 3 older brothers with the troop, he has a certain ability level and is respected by his age cohort).

In addition, my family has been with this troop longer than either CC or ASM, whose sons moved up with my second son (the expelled one). We were there with our oldest first.

Frankly, if ASM and CC would just accept that my second son will not apologize to them because he doesn't feel he owes them an apology and he is not of a nature to just say it and get it over with, even if he doesn't mean it (believe me, we tried and he told us we were trying to make him into a hypocrite!) and that my second son will not return to the troop, if they would just accept my two younger ones and keep them separate from their brother, things would be okay. It's their insistence on lumping my sons together and punishing the two younger boys because their brother refuses to apologize to them that's the current problem. Scoutdad and I have accepted that second son will no longer be in the troop as long as CC and ASM are there.

It's because we feel our two younger boys, and the youngest in particular, are being punished because ASM and CC could not "break" second son, that we are continuing to fight.

I do appreciate everyone's thoughts because they help me to crystallize what I really want and need in this situation and what is best for my sons. I care about the other boys in the troop but not more than my own sons.

WoW! Your posts really ring with me. Check out my post on appropriate discipline for another story of a dysfunctional troop.

My H was an ACM and when our youngest son moved up to the troop last March, he decided to stay because all new leadership was taking over and were inexperienced. He also volunteered to lead the Webelos 2 den. In our pack, the Webelos den leader takes the boys to the local troops to visit.

Due to the issues outlined in my thread, last week, my H informed the SM of our (currently former) troop that he was NOT bringing his Webelos to visit as long as the current CC and ASM are in place and, by the way, he has committed to lead Webelos 2 for the next 3 years (until the troop celebrates its 100 anniversary - IF it's around).

We have also begun a venture crew (we have older sons of 20, 16 and 14 who moved over to that unit, along with some of their friends and we are hoping for some cross-registration from the troop). I am the CC, H is the crew advisor, and my son who was expelled from the troop is crew president. We've had 2 successful meetings so far - a group cooking event and a shooting sports roundtable which the crew members ran for the other VCs in the district. Our next meeting is supposed to be a course in the new CPR methods run by an Eagle Scout (in his late 20's) who will probably join us as an adult leader. His mom is a friend of H's from college and after her divorce, H was like a father figure to this young man.

I mentioned our activities just because I wanted to show that a new group can start and do good things.

I know how hard it is when that 11 year old in unhappy and wants to quit scouting.

Good luck to you.

Here's another update on our ongoing situation:

Scoutdad wants to be back in the troop because my youngest son wants to be. The pastor who runs the church where the troop meets has called a meeting between Scoutdad and I, SM, CC, ASM, the COR and the man I referred to in my earliest posts, who is a dad in the troop and a high-level volunteer at Council. We have asked for someone from Council to be in attendance as well. The meeting will take place in a couple of weeks.

I am still outraged about how ASM spoke to my two boys, telling them they couldn't go camping because of how my other son had behaved and implying that their dad didn't care enough about them to go camping with them (sooutdad has a fairly serious heart condition). When I heard that he is planning to make his brutish, thug son an ASM when the kid turns 18 this year, I flipped until SM said he would never allow it.

CC told SM that he would pull "HIS" charter and go someplace else with all the equipment. SM told him the charter belongs to the CO and not to him and the equipment belongs to the troop and not any individual. CC was not amused...

Frankly, the only reason we're even entertaining going back is because the other troops we're considering are too far away for a school night.

Hope everyone had a nice New Year and that your scouting years are going better than mine.

Scoutdad made the COR aware of the assault incident. I can't compel the parents to do anything. I did hear from one of my sons that SM and CC are questioning ASM's version of the incident (ASM's son is the attacker).

Scoutdad and I are turning our back on this troop. Even SM, who we defended to Council when CC and ASM tried to get him removed, has not called us since (though I've seen him on Facebook playing games so I know he's not too busy). I am really hurt about that, I considered him a friend, but my kids come first.

Scoutdad sent a letter to the minister who runs the church which is our charter org to let him know about the latest incident. We had met with him the day after we resigned but this letter was to let him know about the fighting incident.

The attacked boy told my First Class son (not the one that was expelled) that the SM and CC did not seem to believe ASM's version when they discussed it at the last meeting (ASM is father of the attacker) but that nothing else has been done. I do not know what the attacked boy's parents have chosen to do. My expelled son was at his house tonight with the two witnesses (one of whom is CC's son) but he said the topic did not come up because other boys who aren't scouts weren't there.

I can't compel anyone else to do anything but I feel that by telling the minister about it (we identified the attacker but not the other boy by name) we have pu it out there.

This second incident made me decide that as long as CC and ASM are still there, I will not send my sons back.

We have checked out two other troops so far. One is very faith based but not our faith and I did not feel comfortable there as a parent. The other was very sports oriented and my boys have zero interest in lacrosse, basketball or football; they did not have a good time at the meeting we attended. We have two others we plan to check out. One is a predominantly Jewish, non-sports oriented troop about a 25 minute drive away (former troop was 5) and the other is former troop's traditional rival, a very rah-rah troop. I am just not sure if it is sports oriented or not.

Now that I have had a week to think about it, the thing I am angriest about is ASM taking my two youngest sons aside and telling them that they couldn't go camping because of how their older brother behaved unless Scoutdad went with them. SD and I had not told the younger boys about this and I am furious with ASM for bringing this issue up with my sons when he had no place to discuss troop discipline with boys. He overstepped his bounds. It makes me even angrier when I think of how physically aggressive his son is and he's never punished.

Anyway, just had to vent.

On a positive note, our crew ran an event this past week that was very well thought of. Two or three boys (including the attacked boy) are thinking of joining. If it wasn't for my 6th grader, I would just dump scouts altogether and focus only on the crew.

We put our oldest son in as a Wolf when we moved to the suburbs. He stayed in for one year of BS, made tenderfoot and dropped out because the older boys in that troop were really mean. He later joined another troop (ironically, the one I just pulled my youngest boys out of) where he had fun and aged out as a First Class scout. At 20, he is now an active member of the VC his dad is the CA and I am the CC of and plans to become an adult leader when he turns 21 next year.

Second boy began as a Tiger (I was the TL for him and my youngest boys), barely made it through cubs but became totally engaged when he hit BS age. He made OA and attended NOAC at age 11, he is now a Life Scout and a Brotherhood OA member. Sadly, he resigned from his troop (LONG story on another post) but is now the president of our VC and still plans to work for Eagle. The other boys looked up to him rather than the SPL (CC's son) and that annoyed them.

Next boy also joined as a Tiger. He liked cubs more than 2d boy but is in BS more for socializing than for advancement. He is 14 and just made FC. He is co-president of our crew amd I just pulled him out of the troop.

Youngest boy is 11 and just bridged last March. He made Tenderfoot and was a BOR away from Second Class when I pulled him out of the troop. We are shopping for a new troop home for him. He loves scouting and camping, etc.

The middle boys work at our district summer camp.

Hi, i's me, the OP with an not too happy update.

In the 8 months since I last posted on this topic, my son decided not to rejoin the troop because he no longer respected the CC and the ASM and could not pretend. One of his "challenges" is a painful honesty that does not let him just suck it up or compromise. Scoutdad and I were fine with that and took over a dormant Venture Crew to have somewhere for him to go.

Since then, CC and ASM have gone out of their way to be vile. Advisor has backed off, perhaps because he now has a Council position. They forced me to take my son home from an Eagle project and tried to bully another scout into not inviting my son to his Eagle project. In both instances, we had sought the guidance of our district executive before bringing him over. They refused to let us come on a "family" trip unless we left son home.

The final straw was when they refused to let our other boys go on a camping trip unless Scoutdad went along. Our second car died the week before and I could not be alone without a car all weekend as we live in the burbs. ASM told my 11 year old that he could not go on the trip because of his older brother's behavior and because his dad wasn't going along. My son was in tears.

I finally had enough. I told CC and ASM in front of SM that I was pulling my two remaining boys from the Troop and to send back my money and delete my email address from the list.

I got an email yesterday saying that they presented the issue to the committee and they voted to accept our resignation and refund our money ($300).

Then, today, my middle son told me that at the camping trip, ASM's son, who is a huge 17 year old with behavioral issues, attacked another boy (almost 17 and almost as big but no behavior problems). The boy fought back and has now been told that he can't go on any more trips without a parent. There has been NO consequence to the aggressor (although, as my son pointed out, making him go camping IS a punishment, he hates being in scouts and everyone but his dad, the ASM, knows it). I am SO angry. The attacked boy is one of the sweetest, gentlest kids I know. He is angry and feels that he is being forced out of the troop for his unabashed support of my son. Several years ago, the ASM's son attacked this same boy as summer camp with a knife. The attacked boy was sent home and ASM's son got no consequence.

I had been debating calling and seeing if I could put youngest boy back in even if he never went camping because he misses his friends and is too young for Venture crew but after this I won't.

We have been invited to check out several other troops and plan to. Scoutdad is leading a Webelos 2 den this year and is sending them all to a different troop, none to our former troop.

Just thought I'd give an update in case anyone was having a similar type of problem.

Shortridge -

Our troop is chartered to a religious group (a church of a Protestant denomination); however, I don't believe we have any boys who practice that particular religion in the Troop; actually, I don't think we have any Protestants in our troop, but we do have Hindu and Buddhist boys. We have a mixed group but Jewish and Catholic are predominant. My son is Jewish but his father is Catholic and his last name is not at all Jewish-sounding.

The summer camp is non-denominational. My understanding is that a different religious group offers the service each week and there is not a requirement to attend. I think, in retrospect, that the leaders took all of the boys because they didn't want to leave them unattended in the camp site since all of the leaders up there that week were Catholic. Given my son's name (and the fact that he looks very Irish), it was a not unreasonable assumption that he was Catholic. I have been told that I look Irish, though I have no heritage in that line. What annoyed me was that they did not take my son's word, at 10 years old, that he was Jewish and not Catholic. I probably should have told them, but it didn't occur to me that they would doubt my child! The fact that they brought him to the service did not bother me at all as I think exposure to other people's religions is an important means of fostering understanding in the world. I also understand their wanting to attend their own faith's service and not wanting to leave the boys alone. In any event, this happened to be the religion of the paternal side of his family so seeing a service would not have been detrimental to him.

The reason I told that story was not to complain about how our religious views were violated or about how our troop is religiously based (since it's not), but to point out how little trouble my son had ever been in since joining the troop and how some of the trouble was the result of a miscommunication with the leader.

Believe me, I completely understand about the religious issues. If I for a second really believed that the leaders were discriminating against my son for religious reasons, I would have filed a complaint years ago.

In the wake of that first summer, by the way, the Troop leaders now ask the parents to indicate if they want their sons to attend any services and if so, which ones. Boys can opt to attend more and can even opt out of those their parents list but they can't be made to attend any at all. My son has been attending the Jewish and the Catholic services (most of his friends in scouts are Catholic) but he self-identifies as a secular Jew.

2cubdad -

If they sent my district's ceremonial team out to kill me, I'd hear them a mile away and make a run for it!

My son volunteers at camp to help run the new ordeals and he really enjoys it.

The advisor was there. He asked if he could say something to us. We said he could. He apologized for issues in the past and said that he really, truly does want my son to do well. He said that the DE spoke with him after Scoutdad spoke with DE and asked him to really think about what his purpose was for attending the meeting. He told us that CC had called him all upset and wanting to expel son and he (confirmed by CC later on) told CC that was not appropriate. He said he has had several discussions with CC and that his goal is to retain boys in scouting. Based on that, we decided to let him stay. Scoutdad and I have decided to let the past go and take him at his word for the future and see how it works out. I think it was important for my son to see that his parents could also change a long held opinion and give someone another chance and that adults could apologize to each other (he wasn't present for that part, but we told him what had transpired).

As for the ASM, he is kind of hot-tempered and he admitted that he was pissed off at Scoutdad because he had not dropped everything to drive up to the camp and get our son as soon as ASM called. It was kind of a bummer; that weekend was literally the first time in about 15 YEARS that Scoutdad and I had no kids at home and we had plans. Scoutdad told ASM he was "working on it" as our car wasn't up to the trip and it was a Saturday night and we had no clue where to get another car at that point. ASM said take a cab ($230 round trip!) and Scoutdad told him that was ridiculous. At the meeting, ASM said he had wanted to hear "I am dropping everything to come up there now" and "I'm working on it" wasn't good enough. He was already on the road heading back to town when he made the cab comment. That's why Scoutdad has to go camping now.

Once we established that the issue was between Scoutdad and ASM, we were able to resolve it.

Meanwhile, son is once again at friend's house and I don't believe CC's son is there. I told son that I hoped it was not because of him that CC son isn't being invited and he said that he thinks the other boys are using the phony cheating and meanness accusations as an excuse to dump CC son but they wanted to anyway. He said he defends CC son but the other boys are fed up. CC's son is much less mature than the other boys.

We're still waiting for the email from CC outlining the requirements for the letters son needs to write.

WOW! When my son was 11 and inducted into the OA for ordeal, I asked him how it went and what had happened when he returned from the weekend. He looked at me (in those days, he still looked UP to me!) and said, in his best Maverick voice, "I could tell you, Mom, but then I'd have to kill you!"

I still have no clue what happened and he is now a Brotherhood member.

I am sending three boys to camp this year. One will be staff and was a CIT last summer, the second will be a CIT this year and the third is going as a camper for either one or two weeks, depending on if our troop can get adult coverage for the second week. My oldest son, who's in college, interviewed but was not hired. We were told that jobs were offered first to younger (and cheaper) hires than to older teens who needed to be paid more. That's a cost cutting measure the camp is imposing.

I have a dependent care account to which I put in enough to cover the youngest two weeks. I am planning on enrolling him in my town's local program for another 3 weeks, which will cost about $800. i don't have the money for a fancy camp.

Scoutfish -

Thank you. It was SO hard to learn what the leaders had to say and to realize that it was true. I AM proud that my son admitted it straight out when confronted and didn't try to blameshift or say the adults were framing him. When they told me what he had said, I knew they were telling the truth. The expressions, the vocabulary, the intonations were my son's. Scoutdad and I were mortified. To his credit, my son looked on the verge of tears for most of the time he was in the room. I do believe that he mouthed off without bad intent, but we are judged by our actions and our words, not our intentions and I hope he is learning from this.

He is NOT an angel. Neither was I, though I admit to being alot more afraid to talk back to adults than he is. None of my kids are angels. They are humans. It is my job to try to guide them and help them become self-supporting, worthwhile adults who will contribute to society in some small way. Putting my head in the sand and refusing to acknowledge truly reprehensible behaviors does no good for anyone, particularly my son. I know too many over indulged bullies whose parents think the world revolves around them to want my child to be like that.

Thanks again.

Hi, all -

It went much better than we could have hoped for and the sad reality was worse than we had imagined.

We found out last night at the meeting that after he was told he was going home, my son went and told some of the older boys what was going on. The CC's son was there and he got very upset. This has spilled out of scouting and into their social circle. The other day, my son, CC's son and 4 other boys were hanging out playing a board strategy game. The CC's son accused my son of cheating. The other boys defended my son (one of these boys was on the trip, 2 others are in the other troop in town). CC's son then left and told his father that my son sent him nasty and threatening text messages. My son doesn't have a cell phone; he doesn't want one. The texts were apparently sent to the boy's phone from another friend's phone which the boy borrowed to try and get my son in trouble. CC knows that my son has no phone and, besides, he could see the number the texts came from and it wasn't registered to anyone in my family. He is dealing with that issue with his son separately, as should be. The boy was angry because my son said his dad (CC) was "unethical," "an abuser of power" and a "power hungry megalomaniac." At the meeting last night, my son admitted saying those things. He REALLY seemed clueless as to the impact they would have on his friend and that is something "I" have to deal with. He said that if he knew those things weren't true when he was saying them (said in anger), then why would his friend believe those things. After a lot of talk, he finally GOT that saying mean things, even if they aren't true, can hurt people's feelings. These are 15 year old boys. I hope they can work it out; however, my son and his other friends have been growing apart from CC's son for awhile as he is much less mature (still plays with Pokemon cards for example).

Anyway, once that was taken care of, we dealt with the scouting aspect.

My son has to handwrite letters of apology to the CC, the ASM and the CC's son. This punishment was chosen because it is known to all of the adults in the troop that my son has a handwriting disability. The letters have to explain his thinking and why he made the choices he did. Until he writes the letters, he can't attend meetings. He has to meet with CC and ASM and read the letters to them (Scoutdad will be with him) and he can give the son's letter to CC. He will not be made to read the letter to the son.

My husband has to attend camping trips for the near future or at least until we get a car that can get to the campgrounds quickly. The ASM was more angry that we couldn't pick him up than about the rest of it. Also, ASM has always been urging Scoutdad to camp with them more. I would like that and Scoutdad has said he will think about it.

The ball is in son's court now. Scoutdad and I were livid with our son and we made that clear to him and everyone else. I was angry with him for not telling me the complete truth, for disrespecting his ASM and the CC AND for hurting his friend's feelings. I hope he writes the letter but I am not doing it for him - I got him the opportunity to make amends; it's up to him.

I wanted to thank everyone for their comments. I am disappointed in my son, but I love him and hope that he will learn from this experience and become a better scout and a better person. I am just glad that I came here to vent and didn't do so on the CC and the ASM prior to the meeting.

Hi, all -

We are getting ready to go to the meeting, which may be very short because the "advisor" is apparently going to be there.

My husband spoke with the DE today, who told him that we should go to the meeting and ask the "advisor" to leave. If he doesn't, the DE has told us that we should leave and contact him tomorrow. He will then deal with it.

My husband will also contact the head of our chartered organization (not the COR who is still away but the cleric who heads the institution which charters the troop).

I have read the links provided and believe that the only category that is remotely implicated is "verbal insults." As near as I can get from my sons, they were having a private conversation. The older boy made the comment about the dishes (as the two of them were walking to the wash area with pots, as they were intending to wash the dishes even though they felt it was dumb; they were going to follow the adults' instructions). The younger boy laughed and the CC ran over and said "What did you say?" My Life Scout repeated it verbatim (he does not lie, except about having English HW!) and the fun began.

As far as we are concerned, this has nothing to do with the "advisor." The SM said he asked him once again not to come but he said he will be there. The rules say "unit committee" and I assume that means everyone on the committee (about 12 people, including myself and my husband) and not just the "advisor" that CC wants to cherry pick.

The bad feelings with the advisor go way back to Cub Scouts. However, I have been able to set them aside for the good of the troop, till now. I have sat on BOR's for his sons (and passed them) after the botched BOR. His oldest son actually apologized to me for his dad's behavior recently! He said he just doesn't understand why his dad doesn't like my son. I told him not to worry about it, just don't get in trouble with his dad.

I consider it to be the height of disrespect to me and my family to have the advisor present when we specifically asked for him not to be.

In any event, the meeting will be over, for the good, the bad and/or the ugly, in 3 hours.

I think the funniest thing is that the DE told my husband that he doesn't even know who the advisor is! I am in a large council with more than 4 districts, so there is a large layer of bureaucracy; however, the advisor tries to make himself sound so important that i really thought he had the DE's ear.

I will let you all know how it works out. Thanks for all the comments.

The "advisor" is the Advancement Chair for our district.

I'm really confused now. Does the CC have the authority to discipline my son or not? If the only person who can impose discipline for his infraction is the SM, I am fine with that. He does not want the advisor there. If that is the case, this meeting is not necessary. All that is needed is for my son to say words to the effect of "I am very sorry that you felt disrespected by my comments. I did not mean for that to happen." Then, he has to learn to keep his mouth shut and reserve his true thoughts for the dinner table.

Are you also saying that the CC can't remove the SM?

I don't have a speech but what I did with my own kids was tell them that cursing is a sign of a poor vocabulary and challenge them to find another way to express themselves, preferably with large, multi-syllabic words they did not know before.

You could make it a contest or the subject of a skit. Ask the boys to come up with different ways to say the bad words and make a skit about it without using the bad words.

Beavah -

The CC is the allegedly aggrieved party. He was the person my son is alleged to have disrespected on the camping trip. The "advisor" is a committee member (as am I) and he is also holds a council position. He was not on the camping trip.

My SM told me that the CC can unilaterally remove him from office and, in fact, the previous CC had removed this same SM with the support of the current CC and the "advisor." After an investigation into bogus allegations regarding matters outside of and unrelated to scouting, the SM was reinstated. However, he is concerned that he could be removed again.

I thought that the CC had the ultimate authority over the boys and the SM and that is why we have been treading lightly. My SM has stayed in scouting even though his kids have aged out because he is really dedicated and I don't want to put his position on the line.

I STILL haven't heard from CC about the meeting.

My husband doesn't want to bring our son at all. SM has asked that we bring him so I told husband that we would bring him and he could sit outside while the adults meet. My husband is leery because we were totally blindsided at the botched BOR (run by the "advisor") and my son almost quit scouting over that episode. It took a lot of work (and the return of the current SM) to get him back into it. Another attack and he is likely to just drop out after 9+ years in.

I think that if my son had mouthed off to anyone other than the CC, he would not be involved and the meeting would be only with the SM. I plan to ask if this would be the case. I don't think there should be a differentiated treatment because of the status of the person who is complaining.

By the way, it is now almost 2 weeks since the incident occurred and I have not heard from CC about it yet.

The meeting is set for tomorrow evening.

Acco -

The CC who says my son disrespected him and the man that I can't stand are NOT the same person. I happen to like the CC and think that he does a great job with that. He was SM for one year and it is not his forte; he is much better with facts and figures and organization than with the boys, as this episode illustrates. That's why he stepped down after only one year as SM. The man I can't stand is another committee member who also holds a district position. This man was not even on the camping trip where the incident happened and has been brought into it by the CC.

I just spoke with the SM who said that he has asked the CC to not have the advisor there but he doesn't think he will listen. He said the CC has the right to have him there. At this point, my husband will call the COR but if the advisor shows up at the meeting, COR or not, we are out of there unless the advisor leaves.

Regardless, however, my son will apologize to the CC and the ASM because he should not have behaved as he did.

If the CC has the advisor there, I will take it as a clear sign of disrespect for my husband and I and I will not accept that. If that happens, my middle son will be out of scouting until he turns 14 in a few months and the youngest will go to another troop.

This has morphed into much more than it has to be. Either way, it will be resolved by the end of this week.

By the way, the SM said he has proposed a one month ban from meetings and activities (which is almost halfway done by now) and a "zero tolerance" for disrespect with him being the final and only arbiter of what disrespect is. That would be acceptable to me and my husband but we don't know if the CC will accept that. My husband has also acknowledged that he will probably be going on camping trips for the near future at least. The apologies are of course part of the package. CC has still not called me back or responded to my emails.

Thank you all for continuing the dialogue. This is really helping me to hone my thoughts.

Oh and for the writer who suggested that Scoutdad handle it, thanks for the laugh! I am the calm parent - on several occasions previously (most notably the BOR incident) Scoutdad has had to be convinced not to physically attack the "advisor."

Scoutnut,

When I said I didn't want anyone "punished," I did not mean that I don't want any discipline to be imposed. I have said from the beginning that my son owes an apology and should have a sanction of some sort. What I meant was that I did not want anything "punitive," like expulsion to happen to anyone involved.

This is my son's first serious infraction. His first year at summer camp, he was 10 and refused to shower as often as the leaders told him to. That is now a non-issue; he showers at least once a day at this point. He also refused to go up to the altar for communion at the religious service. I got a phone call from the now CC, who was then the ASM in charge of camp about my son's disrespect of "his" religion. However, the CC was unaware that my son, despite his very not Jewish sounding last name, is in fact Jewish and had been instructed by me NOT to approach for communion as that would have been disrespectful. He told the adults that and he chose not to accept what he had said. That was my fault. It was our first camp summer and I didn't realize what the religious service would entail. I should have told the leaders of our religious affiliation and not relied on a shy 10 year old to explain it successfully. Sicne then, we have had no issues beyond the usual boy boisterousness. No cursing, no yelling, no violence or fighting, with or without knives. Nothing. He has been well-respected by his peers and the other boys, older and younger.

My son was the youngest boy ever elected to OA from the troop and is a Brotherhood member already. He was in the troop one year when he was elected and beat out boys who had been in the troop for many more years.

I don't believe that I can get our COR to a meeting this week as I have been told he is out of the country. I will try his house again and see when he is getting back. Our CE will intervene to call off the advisor. My husband spoke with him and he said that there is no way a boy who is Life and just a couple of merit badges away from being able to start his eagle project is being expelled for an offense like this one. Our DE would attend the meeting if asked to by the CE. My preference would be for the CC to call the advisor off on his own. If that happens, I think we have the best chance of getting past this episode relatively unscathed. If not, there may be some bad feelings that I would hope would subside and, if they don't, my son will get his eagle through the venture crew, where I am the CC and my husband is soon to be the CL.

My main concerns, again, are to get a sense of what a suitable (i.e., not vindictive) sanction would be for my son and how to keep the "advisor" out of my family's business. I think the best way to describe the guy would be to call him a "Doug Niedermeyer."

Thanks again to all of you who are responding to me. You are helping me to formulate thoughts and recall new facts.