tjhammer

the chances that BSA will ever be held to be a public accommodation is exactly zilch Yes, but the chances that BSA, Inc. will be held to be a business that refuses to sell a product to people with religious beliefs they don't like is very likely. And since BSA Inc. has gone to court (several times) to chase off competitor organizations that try to deploy the Scouting program outside of BSA Inc. it's certainly acted like a business. (It's not the WOSM regulations that prevent multiple Scouting organizations in the USA... it's the Congressional Charter that the BSA received, giving it

Larry Craig is another example of the end of what BrentAllen and tjhammer both hate about the old gay culture. I do feel sadness for any man of his age who has lived a lie for so long. Like every gay man, I can understand a bit of what he's going through. But I'm far younger, far more affirmed by those around me, and far less committed to concealing a big secret. And I managed to leave the self-loathing behind long ago. Larry Craig has only compounded his own misfortune by hurting others. He has a perfectly anti-gay voting record. If he was closeted but didn't use his powers to harm

BrentAllen - OK, thanks for narrowing down what you mean by "lifestyle". Funny, if someone asked me about BrentAllen's "lifestyle", I imagine Robin Leach narrating about your opulent house, fancy boat, love of fine dining and cadre or fiends. So it's not who I love, my companion of the past seven years, or my household or my friends or my religious beliefs that bother you. What you're worried about is how I might advocate (flip charts?) how I PHYSICALLY spend a collective 45 minutes, during the most private and secluded moments of my week?

BrentAllen - I acknowledge your response, and agree it does no good for us to prejudge each other based on some stereotype. I'm curious, though... I responded to YOUR WORDS... you claim to know something about my "lifestyle". How do you know about my values, home life, friends and the manner in which I spend my time? What do you believe those things to be, based on this predefined image of my "lifestyle" you have proffered?

Keep 'em coming Ed. Over the last decade, the age (and rate) in which gay people "come out of the closet" has dropped dramatically. When I was in high school, I couldn't relate to any gay people, and the prevailing prejudgment told me I was one of the worst kinds of people. The church I attended, and the Scouting program I loved, both wanted nothing to do with me if I was gay (so I hid it). This didn't jive with what I knew in my heart to be true (that I didn't choose to be gay, and that I wasn't a bad person). But you can nonetheless imagine the internal conflict. The "closet" is a

>> advocating their lifestyle Good grief. You don't know ANYTHING about my "lifestyle", just some cartoonish image you cling to as justification for your prejudice. As long as you can believe I'm so different from you, it's easy to label who I am to be "immoral". But by all means, please don't let me discourage you from continuing to share your ideas. In the end, it does more to drive people away from your line of thinking than it draws near, and I wouldn't want to deny your bliss.

BTW, can we agree prejudice against "Nazi's, mass murders, slave traders, child molesters and rapists" is a bit different than prejudging me because I'm gay? Otherwise, I think thou doth protest a bit too much about being called a bigot, no?

BrentAllen - anecdotally, yes, people seem to become more conservative as they grow older (and I think you're right, it often correlates to those payroll taxes!). But I have no reason to believe that's going to happen again with this generation. It makes for a catchy observation, though. "Conservatism" has been utterly redefined in the past 15 years. It certainly doesn't stand for rugged individualism or small and hands-off government. If people grew older and wanted to pay less taxes, expect more self-reliance and be free of a nanny-state government... they aren't going to find any of t

For what it's worth... I agree that blindly "labeling" people is wrong. If you look at my post, I've called the BSA Inc. position prejudicial... I, personally, didn't use the epithet. However, do I think there are bigots in the BSA, and within this forum... yes. But do I think everyone that's willing to prejudge gay boys and men as unfit for membership in the organization is colloquially a bigot? No, that was sort of my point. I think prejudice is often less sinister and deliberate. But when prejudice goes unchecked, denied and defended as rightuous, it's a pretty slippery slope to

I grew up during Reagan, and was inspired to what seemed a clarion call: rugged individualismbelief that America was the role model for the world, and actions that warranted itgovernment that DIDN'T try to solve problems that communities were better suited to solve (education, moral teachings, etc), government that DID solve problems it was better suited to solve (national defense, disaster recovery, etc)Millions from my generation defined conservatism as such. But there's nothing in today's Republican party that even remotely resembles my indoctrination. During the past few years, I dis

EdMori: Who beside you see the Boy Scout as bigots? Names, please. Got any non-atheist or non-gay people who side with you? OK, well, it's been a while... I'm ready to wade back into the morass... let me take a crack at answering you Ed: NYTIMES Poll, June 27, 2007: 44% of people aged 19 to 27 think gay marriage should be legal. 68% think if not marriage, at least civil unions should be allowed. Pretty much every poll of the American public reveals similar, and increasing opinion on gay couples, gay parenting and recognizing that gay people are just normal folks like everyone else

http://www.republicanunity.com/artcl/bld.htm Too bad the BSA National Council continues to drift away from some of the principles Scouting instilled in Gerald Ford.

The BSA had no legal grounds to fire Smith yet. Tell us, if you were the employer, and as far as you know your employee had not committed a crime, WHAT exactly would have have fired him for? Nothing. At least that's how I would have handled St. Jean, since BSA had no legal grounds to fire him, he was not implicated in any sort of criminal activity, and was not about to splash onto the national news in way that would embarrass the "company". Unfortunately, BSA did do something, and probably will end up right back in court defending yet more indefensible decisions. They terminated "for cau

Not to slow down the party, buut BobWhite's, shall we say "narrow" view of the facts probably should be corrected. At the time that Smith took retirement no charge was made, no charge was known. On what grounds as an employer could you fire an employees who was not under arrest, had not been charged, and was eligible to retire? As was reported when the case broke, the authorities first contacted BSA and seized Smith's computer at work. Smith didn't "retire" and months later be revealed for distributing child pornography. It's disengenous to suggest BSA had no idea Smith was imp

JD - don't sweat BW's arrogance. Birds gotta fly, fish gotta swim. But, as he implies, he means well. If you can cut through the condescension, there's often a underlying point worth agreeing with, he just does a very poor job of communicating and leading to get that point established. No matter who you are or what experiences you've had with Scouting, it won't ever reach a sufficient level as long as BW believes you're opinion is wrong. To be fair, I really don't disagree with much of the general point he's trying to make... that Scouting is best done locally, and that should be our foc

Bob -- can you educate the ignorant masses with a list of the top 10 responsibilities of the National Council? Maybe then we can all better understand just how little they have to do with 'real scouting' that's going on, and why it's non of our concern what they do.(This message has been edited by tjhammer)

BW, before you blow an authority gasket (I imagine you in an office up in the attic, chugging blood pressure medicine, tilting away and ready to throw open the window screaming "I'm mad as hell, and I'm not going to take it anymore!").... GS cookie sales are about $600 million business, and Weaver Popcorn (the company that owns Trails End brand) did about $90 million in Boy Scout popcorn sales. (But then, you probably already knew that, too.)

Bob, come on, let's not be so disingenuous here.... Smith was one of the three top paid executives for Scouting, had been directly in charge of Youth Protection guidelines, and was one of the very regular, vocal opponents to "homosexuals" in Scouting. The fact that he didn't search for and trade pictures of naked boys at the office, but confined such activities to home, seems like a pretty minor detail compared to the hypocrisy of the above, don't you think?

Without comment on the intent of the thread, I will add that the IRS 990 form you're referencing does not really include all of BSA. (I have no idea how many corporate identities comprise GSUSA.) BSA councils are all independent corporations, and their assets and P&L are probably not reflected in the above. More significantly, though, is the fact that at a national level BSA has multiple entities, making it difficult to get a true picture of the entire organizations business practices. At least a few years ago, I know there were separate tax returns filed for Supply Division (as I re

I suppose I'm the gay cousin the family is still trying to get used to... I live off in the big city, and drop back in from time to time, for family reunions and such. But I'm not really sure I know who Crazy Uncle Frank would be. All in all, I'd play horseshoes with just about anyone in the family.

Of that we are both guilty, no doubt.

Then, in your view, throughout the Bible where it says "man", it means that quite literally? If that's the case, then it would sure seem likely verses can be found that place women into subservience in ways beyond just spiritual leadership. I get the picture.

Well, let's stick with the one I brought up in the most recent post... the Bible outlines a role for women to be subserviant to man. Most of Christianity rejects this today... where do you stand? And an extension of that example, what of the recent "edits" to the Bible to be more "gender-neutral" in the use of pronouns... do you reject new translations that refer to "people" instead of "man" or "woman"?

Now come on, accordion players are clearly born that way, I mean why would anyone choose to play an accordion? But bagpipers, that's a different story. I think both accordion players and non-accordion players could play the bagpipe. It just takes a willing effort. Not that there's anything wrong with that. In fact, I think it can be quite emotional and satisfying to hear a bagpipe off in the distance late at night or early in the morning.

OGE, you've always struck me as the sort of person who could appreciate an accordion player, even if you were not one yourself.