Jump to content

tjhammer

Members
  • Content Count

    358
  • Joined

  • Last visited

Everything posted by tjhammer

  1. Really Ed? Come on, now... do you really value Scouting so little that you'd bail if some troop across town or in another council decided a 16-year-old gay Scout should stay, or the gay parent of a boy should be assistant Scoutmaster? You've demonstrated in this forum many times just how simple you are, but I can't believe it's that cut and dry for you.
  2. Trevorum, we're not in disagreement. I've acknowledged that my own homosexuality is innate, much like being left-handed or having a specific personality trait, regardless of nurturing. I also see the genetic argument that a society might adapt homosexuality as a percentage of the population. But at the point we ONLY argue prejudice against gays is wrong "because they're born that way", we're entering a slippery slope. We have to be VERY vigilant that the "it's genetic" argument is not twisted by those who are prejudice to be "it's a genetic defect". Those that currently prejud
  3. OGE, I certainly did not expect that you personaly felt it was a "defect"... I've always had respect for your perspective on this (and other) issue(s). I think you expressed yourself very well, and you've said nothing from which to back away. I'm pointing out a personal discomfort I have with the whole "genetic" debate (which is even more highlighted when the concept of "genetic defect" comes in to the discussion). If we place all our emphasis on arguing that homosexuality is genetic, it's a slippery slope to then say it's a genetic defect, and then on to "treating" the defect. On
  4. The whole discussion of choice versus innate quality versus genetic "defect" is troublesome to me. I understand why the topic is proffered, but I think it could ultimately push the discussion in the wrong direction. This discussion should simply be about whether gays can be good role models for Scouting. The larger discussion should simply be about whether gays are the same as everyone else, and undeserving of social prejudice. Ultimately, the answer to these questions should be answered regardless of whether I'm gay by "choice", by "defect" or "other". Some people choose to argue t
  5. Though I must add, I don't have any short-term expectations of a change in BSA policy. The current administration (including the Chief Scout Exec and his team, as well as the Nat Exec Board and the Nat Relationships Committee (where this policy was born and further clarified), are either incapable or unwilling of building consensus on this issue. Their own internal research (however likely skewed) still shows a sizeable percentage of parents disagree with this policy, and they heard from several chartering organizations (many that even filed friends-of-the-court briefs) against BSA'
  6. OGE asks why we have this discussion on this forum. 1) to help the leaders that read here be more sensitive to this issue, and cause them to think through the issue (hopefully) in advance of encountering it in real life in their unit. 2) to better understand those people that have opposing views of my own, and completely understand their arguments. 3) to place into the general "consciousness" of Scouting volunteers an articulate (as best I can) response to BSA's policy of prejudice (this forum seems to be about the most visible "discussion" of Scouting taking place online).
  7. BobWhite, thanks for posting the data to support your claim that an "overwhelming majority" of parents agree with the BSA's prejudice against gays. Pardon me if I'm somewhat underwhelmed by the data presented so far. This was based solely on "BSA Internal Research" surveying 2400 people. Exactly which 2400 people were surveyed? From what geography? What demographic? What was the question? Which chartering organizations were surveyed? I don't doubt that "opinion" is generally in favor of BSA's prejudice, by I also don't doubt that opinion is dramatically shifting, especially among th
  8. For the record (again, and again, and again), I LOVE what Scouting teaches, and so does nearly everyone on this forum. Many of us just believe BSA's dead wrong on this issue, and while we support Rooster and his CO to determine the moral fitness within their unit, we also support every Scouting parent and CO to do the same. For you to suggest this specific rule "exist to define what the BSA movement represents" is a complete bastardization of Scouting's purpose, in my view. It separates us from our founding principles more than connecting us. ========= BW, again 80% of your post
  9. OGE asks in another thread "of all the gay parents/legal guardians there have been, what is the breakdown of the childrens sexuality gay vs straight as opposed to the general population."I Googled "kids of gay parents" (because all I have is anecdotal info) and almost every match in the first few pages indicate that the kids are no more likely to end up gay than kids raised by heterosexual parents (statistically about the same). One recent study that surveyed more than 12,000 kids across the country also confirmed "what countless other studies have shown [for nearly 50 years], that sexua
  10. I feel like I need to apologize, because after years of discussing this issue in this forum, for the first time I can actually feel my blood pressure rising. While I am responding specifically and directly to other posters, I will continue to label and challenge their ideas, not them personally. I hope most would agree (and my writing on this forum will support) that I have usually been fair - and reasonable - in arguing this issue on this forum. I have tried to avoid being very emotional, and stick to the logic of debate. And while it's true that I am a gay man, who grew up in Scout
  11. >Please do not confuse the individual opinions of any scouter as the viewpoint of the BSA. BW, in your thinly veiled attempt to continue as the "anti-Mori", you fail to understand that you took two posts and 95% more words to say exactly the same thing as him. >>a private organization the BSA has the legal right to determine membership Enough of the red herring. I've not met a single person in this forum that didn't understand AND agree with this. Not one person. So quit using it as a hammer to try and change the subject to "BSA victimhood"... we ALL agree the BSA sh
  12. Matt, first keep in mind that you are a "white elephant", or something several members of this forum prefer to believe has not existed. The fact that you were a 14 year old boy coming to grips with your sexuality while a very active member of Scouting is something some people pretend is not affected by this policy. (And the misinformation, apprehension or hate you experienced along the way from your unit leader, other Scouts or the BSA is "insignificant", statistically.) In reality, we know you're far from alone in your ordeal, and thousands of Scouts just like you are affected (some very
  13. From one of the unlikeliest of sources, comes one of the more eloquent arguments for adopting local option and allowing local CO's to determine the moral fitness of their leaders. Stunning.
  14. For the record I have no personal objection to the Declaration of Religious Principles, I only wish BSA Inc. supported that Declaration as much as I do. while you are entitled to promote your values and ideas, you are not entitled to impose them on the BSA in my opinionAnd while you are entitled to your values and ideas, you are not entitled to impose them on the entire BSA membership (or so says the Declaration of Religious Principles). My post was mostly intended to point out the irony of recent discussions on this forum where people couldn't accept leaders who knowingly violate ru
  15. Of course. I think most (though obviously not all) of the posters on this forum agree with that). Though the hypocrisy is stronger when the morality is so diametric, no?
  16. Many of the same people who have argued there is nothing wrong with BSA Inc. institutionalizing prejudice and contradicting their own policies (i.e. Declaration of Religious Principles), are the same people who have passionately argued that Scout leaders who willingly drive five miles over the speed limit can not adequately model ethical behavior. It's been argued that leaders who willingly violate the uniforming policies of Scouting are diminished in their ability to teach ethics. Though the same people who assert this with passion have very little to say about the corruption that BSA In
  17. Well see, Merlyn can't separate the "real and good value education we provide from the religious pomposity we've pushed more recently". He also can't separate "Scouting" from "BSA Inc.". He's right of course, in that "BSA Inc." is acting both dishonestly and unethically. (i.e. the incongruity of the "gay policy" and the Declaration of Religious Principles, for example, or until recently encouraging government to own Scout units. BSA Inc. also has shown ethical lapses in its management procedures and hypocrisy among its leaders.) Perhaps the greatest ethical lapse of BSA Inc. is the dive
  18. I don't think this post belongs in the Issues & Politics section. There's simply no denying the amazing impact of Scouting on the kids that we help mold... the Movement played an amazing role in my life, to help make me the man I am today. And we've all seen first hand the direct impact of Scouting's values with countless thousands of kids influenced just by the Scouters around this forum. I recall the first Harris Research, and how that data shed light on what we all already knew. I can't imagine you will find ANY person who posts on these forums that would challenge the re
  19. Ed, it's a rare slow day at the office, so I'll bite. Do you extend the identical logic to the rest of the Bill of Rights? In your interpretation would we have the right say anything we want (free speech), just so long as we're constantly talking? The right to own any gun, but we must own at least one gun? The right to assemble, but not the right to not assemble? The right to express grievances to the government, but not the right to have no grievances? The language gets really confusing when you add prepositions that are not there. As to my original point about whether th
  20. Hmmm... Ed grade school history really doesn't get much more remedial than this, but didn't they actually flee people like you, who believed it was just fine to legislate a specific religion, the "beliefs" of a specifc sect, upon everyone else? You might want to rethink that last point of yours.(This message has been edited by tjhammer)
  21. fgoodwin, thanks for finding that Boston Herald story, it confirms my prior assumptions better than I could have with my limited web research. Staff -- not sure what was objectionable on the link I provided earlier to the GLSEN, but will defer to your judgment. I do however encourage you to leave the link that fgoodwin has provided above, because I think it explains how a safer sex pamphlet intended for adults and distributed in local bars was inappropriately (and mistakenly) sitting on one of many information booths at this conference, which was held by this association over the weeken
  22. Now see, I go and make a joke about a pamphlet, and one pos up before I can hit submit. :-) Just for some perspective, quick research around the web will clarify that pamphlet that fgoodwin mentions was NOT published or distributed by the high school or the GLSEN. It looks like that was a pamphlet designed by the Massachusetts AIDS Action Committee and distributed mostly through local bars to help with AIDS prevention and promote safer sex. It appears the high school was hosting a national convention for GLSEN (the organization that sponsors the Gay Straight Alliance program
  23. Ed Mori says: I propose we answer with "So, What's so good about being gay?"Ed, are you asking for a sales pitch? Dang it, I'm sure I have a pamphlet around here somewhere... sorry I'm not on the Recruiting Committee so I don't normally stock these things. Maybe if I submit your nomination they can mail you something? Or maybe just drop by with a PowerPoint presentation, I'm pretty sure we have representatives in your neighborhood. With all those draw backs Trevorum listed, it does make you wonder why smart, stable folks keep choosing to be gay though, doesn't it? I think that's covered
  24. Rooster, I rather expect God will judge us not on who we loved, but how we loved. Don't you think the Bible supports this notion? Regardless, I do wish you mercy when they day comes for you. PScouter, sorry for diverging from your specific thread. I'm not sure much can really be said about the very specific question you've raised: it's obvious, as NJCub has said, that the BSA's "gay policy" is in direct violation to its Declaration of Religous Principles. Can any person defend the honesty of both at the same time?
×
×
  • Create New...