"I like to disperse new scouts to established patrols"   

I too experienced the mixed-age patrol as a Scout, and that's fine so long as the Scouts decide who goes where and no one is forced away from friends against their will. Adult ideas of "balance" are irrelevant to friendship.

“Again, although the Scoutmaster may often

  advise with the Patrol leader …concerning new recruits, the admission of a

   new [Scout] … to the Patrol should be with the  approval of the Patrol members.”

                        Hillcourt, William

The "resource role" has meant for 90 years that adults guide leaders to knowledge as required so leaders can teach scouts needing teaching.

$30 per unit for the weekend or $15 per day per unit.

6 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Love that slides can (and should, IMO) be made by Scouts.  Scouts who make their own slides tend to guard them more carefully.  If it gets dropped, everyone pretty much knows whose it is

"Handicraft slides made by youth may also be worn." G2A&I

 

A cord or thong, worn like the Wood Badge beads, prevents the slide from coming off and provides a bit of cordage.

Yup, all those foreign degenerates and their knoted neckers. worn over the collar  😁

The Patrol Leader of the New Scout Patrol is a "New Scout."  He is, thus, not very "experienced" and needs good coaching, mentoring, and resources in the form of the Troop Guide plus the adults.  BSA recommends that the job be rotated among the "New Scouts" through the year so all Scouts get some experience, as the goal is "leadership development,"  not a "well-oiled machine."

The patrols control the respective patrol agendas by democratic consensus, consistent with Aim "citizenship development" and, with coaching from leaders and Scouters, can plan patrol program that inherently leads to advancement. 

In the minority of a Scout's time that is to be devoted to troop activities, the PLC controls the agenda.  Since I checked a day before presenting on this topic at Area, I can confirm that there still is no "Troop Method" in Scouting, as ever defined by BSA.

"In Scouting, a troop is composed of several patrols. Boy Scouting happens in the context of a patrol."  Scoutmaster Position-Specific Training, at p 20 (https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/training/pdf/511-213_WB.pdf)[Including "famous" "quote" from Baden-Powell that he never said or wrote].

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I had to use a real IT pro to get here.   When I try to do a normal entry to Scouter.com I get this message:

"Welcome to nginx!

If you see this page, the nginx web server is successfully installed and working. Further configuration is required.

For online documentation and support please refer to nginx.org.
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Thank you for using nginx."

I will try from time to time to log on.  

I have no trouble logging on to eleven other forums.

9 hours ago, njdrt-rdr said:

It truly is a mess trying to actually abide by the rules. We have the issue with eagle projects now. A scout is working with his mentor or his parent and a group of scouts on some eagle work days and now that has to be 2 leaders present, when you only have a few leaders in your troop to begin with, it's friggin hard, leaders only have so much time and it seems like scouts just assumes that all you want to do is scouting stuff 24x7 365.

 

So lets ask another technical question. Going by the letter of the law, Can a leader drive to a campout with 4 scouts in the car.There's now only 1 leader present.

As noted above. yes you can, although BSA prefers otherwise.

 Scouting,  January 19, 2028:

Q: "My understanding is, as long as Two Deep is practiced for the overall campout or event, it is always OK for a single adult to be with Scouts as long as there is more than one boy present."

A:  "Not quite, we prefer to have a minimum of two adults as your previous paragraph described."

if I were "king," a patrol could go on a day hike with no adults, o=providing the Scoutmaster approved.  That was the rule for over seventy-five years.  To which, some might say, times have changed."  And they have.

At present, BSA might say: "Two or more registered adults must attend each Scout activity, such as a campout or meeting.  It is preferred, but not required, that no group of Scouts go off separately, beyond sight or sound, with less than two registered adults. "

This wording would pretty clearly, or more clearly, reflect this official statement of BSA in Scouting,  January 19, 2028:

Q: "My understanding is, as long as Two Deep is practiced for the overall campout or event, it is always OK for a single adult to be with Scouts as long as there is more than one boy present."

A:  "Not quite, we prefer to have a minimum of two adults as your previous paragraph described."

Or, to piggyback on the official answer: "As long as Two Deep is practiced for the overall campout or event, it is always OK for a single adult to be with Scouts as long as there is more than one boy present, but BSA prefers to have a minimum of two adults present with any group of Scouts."

4 minutes ago, RainShine said:

I saw a post here where a person was saying, if the situation was right, the adults could stay in camp while the Scouts are on a hike.

We have an outing this year that would be perfect for this. We have a group campsite next to a lake. There is a trail around the lake, 4 miles, flat hiking. No road, just trail, nice woods. I was hoping to stay in camp while patrol A goes clockwise and patrol B goes counterclockwise. I intend to have a PLC that morning to review the map, and then send them with walkie talkies. Then pour a cup of coffee and read the paper.

Thoughts?

The rules changed a few years ago, so much learning was rendered obsolete.

One constant problem is the inability of BSA to communicate clearly.  Two registered adults "21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, including meetings."  If the adults are back "in camp," is he or she "at" the hike"?    I submit that, at the very least, the further the Scouts are separated from the adults, the more likely YP is being violated and the hike is a "prohibited activity."   Nor is any consideration expressed in YP of the impact of technology on whether adults are "at" a given location.  The explanation of the longer-standing  "no one-on-one" rule states that others must be in "view" of an adult and Scout for it not to be a "one-on-one" situation.  So one may infer, at one's own risk, or one could ask your counsel for a ruling.  (In my experience, that often results in being referred to BSA, where one may or may not get an answer.)  Binocular-equipped Scouters in a boat at your lake?

(Note:  BSA has advised me in writing that, contrary to any rational interpretation of the YP "Two registered adult..." rule, a Merit Badge Counselor may meet  (surely a "meeting") with a candidate without a second registered adult being present.  Of course,  a third person must be present.  This  position by BSA is daft as a matter of interpreting the BSA YP language, but it is, nevertheless, correct IMO as a matter of being able to use the Advancement Method.)

Adults (or perhaps an adult) were within scream most of the time when I  was a Scout in the Golden Age when Bill ruled the roost.  However, back before the "Improved Scouting Program," adults were trained, unlike the period thereafter, and especially since 2000.  So here's how an adult reacted if he wanted to be around again:

Out on a backpacker in the San Gorgonio Wilderness Area

Scout: "Johnny is getting real tired.  Should we take a break?"

Adult: "I'm only a Scouter.  Did you ask a leader.? I see the ASPL [SPL; PL] over there.   [turning and walking away]."

Absolutely no problem.

In the Age of Incompetence," big problem.   

A Scout patrol is to be a largely self-selected team.  Adult's may influence, but the decision should be by the team members collectively.

Even-sized patrols is an adult fascination unrelated to kids. 

The Troop Guide is a coach/adviser/resource, not the Patrol leader, who is, of course, elected by the patrol members and no one else whatsoever.

If patrol members are not going on campouts, the program is not likely attractive to those "customers." One might ask them why.  Will the PLC agree to what they want?  Can the patrol or troop supply what they expect?  Once we reached 2/3 of all Scout-age boys at least for some time.  Now, it's under 5%.  Only so much can be done.  However, if we fail, it would be nice if we at least tried Scouting.  Few troops do these days.

If they are not interested in Scouting, as can be the case, they are not customers. Was it their idea to join or the parents?  If the latter, the odds were always against active participation for very long, if ever.  (They WILL escape if it's not their idea: "Dad,  I'd like to go but I have math homework I really, really need to do.")

Adults'primary responsibility, beyond safety, is training youth to lead.  Get outside help if, as is often the case given average tenure, you need it.  The Patrol Leaders are critical to keeping the patrol teams together.  If a PL is a total disaster after trying everything available to help him or her do better, the PLC should be counselled to consider a new election.  Election of a leader is not a mutual suicide pact.

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

Let's look at a few of the comments and negatively weighted parts of this article.

First:  Any of us that have been around for any length of time likely agree with the statement about inflated pay.  It has been a thorn in our sides for years.  But, it has gotten far better in the last decade or so.  Also, it seems to me that most of the statements about pay do include the pension benefits and medical, so the total figure is skewed a bit.  Still, in this area, it seems to be legitimate to challenge the system even more going forward.  The comment about people standing in line likely refers to pension benefits I would think, and that is why they are there.

2nd:  Isn't it time for the BSA and others that do not feel misleading journalism is right or fair challenge the terminology that the press has labeled the "Ineligible volunteer fils" with?  They were never called the perversion files except by the yellow journalists.  Similar to the "Obama Care" and "Affordable Care Act".  By calling them perversion files, and intimating that BSA called them that as well, they put the worst meaning on them.  But, many of the files had nothing to do with child abuse, but other things that would make someone not acceptible.  Of course, I have no idea how to fight that, as that is what the sensationalist journalists (?) count on.

3rd:  Why are these stories never complete with all the details.  For example, how is BSA overall over say the past 3-4 decades in comparison to YMCA, Schools, Sports programs.  I think the figures indicate that BSA percentage wise is the lowest, or almost the lowest, even though they are the largest group.  Also, why do the stories seldom mention that the perpetrator was also in other positions that allowed them to be in youth contact, such as teaching, sports, church, or even law enforcement?  Why is only the BSA being sued if the perpetrator also was part of these organizations?

4th:  Explain to me, all you experts and finger pointers and so on how destroying BSA serves anybody's best interests, when the overall good over the past century plus of such magnitude, and continues to overall fulfill its aims?  And why do the "ambulance chasers" think they should be able to bend the norm and drag parts of the organization into the melee?  I truly have no idea what it is about destroying one of the better parts of our society that serves any positive purpose, other than more money in the lawyer's pocket.  Our legal system truly needs some serious overhauling, not just because of this, but as see constantly in absolutely insane sawsuits and weird judgements that do not take actual personal responsibility into play.

5th:  Is there really anyone making all the accusations and demands for compensation who actually thinks that that will solve the problem of evil people that prey on the weak and helpless, or will somehow make up for mistakes from decades ago?  A few of the actual lawyers have suggested they and their clients only want the BSA to do better.  Well, in the past twenty years BSA has developed the model YP plan, one that is a template for other groups.  They have already been offering counseling and other help to past victims, before the lawsuits.  And they continue to search for ways to improve that.  Also, note that decades ago, the IEV files were something nobody else even had, nor made a broad effort to combat the bad actors.  Some of the files note that family members and authorities chose to NOT do anything, for whatever reason.  We are dragging problems of society from decades before, ones that were met with different methods then, into today's society and trying to somehow turn back the clock.  

Finally:  If you have read the report by the Doctor of psychology that investigate the IEV files in depth, you know that she notes that there is NO absolute way to stop these actions by sick, misguided individuals other than vigilance and tight rules.  But the psychologists cannot absolutely determine who might perpetuate these crimes.  

 

 

 

Plaintiffs' lawyers are after money.  That is their only objective for the most part.  If the BSA gets "destroyed," they could not care less.  The more they say, "It's not about money," the more it's about the money.  For the victims, money can be secondary.

"Look at this bigshot, being able to keep DE's for almost a year. What's the secret to your retention?"

That's the average, not the mean.

In theory, the DE's job is to do what the units need.

Then there's reality.  $$$$$$$$$$$$$

Our typical DE's have less than three years in Scouting, including as children.  They last an average of eleven months, mostly resigning.   The actual DEs may not agree that it IS "the best, most-enjoyable paid job in Scouting because the rewards are meaningful, readily-apparent and immediate."  They have little contact with youth and spend the bulk of their time trying to convince adults to donate money to pay, mostly, salaries and wages.  We had 99  functioning troops in the Cleveland area before BSA arrived on the scene in 1912.

20 hours ago, mds3d said:

I think there is a big question on if the BSA national organization was involved in any "intentional wrong-doing" or was simply not doing enough.  

Yes, but what is alleged in the complaints and what position would the excess liability carrier take?   At best, the defense will be offered under a "Reservation of Rights" if intentional wrongdoing is alleged.  Punitive damages will likely not be covered.

"Lewis v. Boys Scouts of America et al. ^[16] was a case filed in Multnomah County, Oregon, by Kerry Lewis, a former member of the BSA who alleged having been abused by former scout leader Timur Dykes in the 1980s.^[17] In 1983, Timur Dykes had confessed to the local BSA co-ordinator that he had molested 17 Boy Scouts,^[18] but was allowed to continue working with the Scouts where, attorneys argued, he subsequently abused Lewis.^[7][19]

In 2010, the jury on the case held in favor of the plaintiff and ordered that the Scouts pay $18.5 million as punishment for their actions—the largest punitive damages awarded to a single plaintiff in a child abuse case in the US.^[7]"

WIKI

"Insurers Balk

It’s also in court with its insurance companies, which argue that they shouldn’t have to pay claims related to abuse that the Scouts could have reasonably prevented. BSA and several councils sued the Hartford Accident and Indemnity Co. and First State Insurance Co. in Texas for $13.5 million in June, after the insurers argued that BSA’s own records showed the organization hadn’t done enough to warn or protect kids. These weren’t unrelated incidents, according to the insurers, but all the result of the organization’s failure to warn parents of the risk.

In a different legal dispute, insurers are refusing to pay for sex-abuse settlements and legal defense fees, arguing that the events weren’t accidents, or even unforeseen."

https://www.insurancejournal.com/news/national/2018/12/20/512554.htm

In Ohio, it is illegal for insurance to cover intentional wrong-doing. That seems to be the rules in most states, if not all.

Hammocks require the right trees in the right places.   Some models come with top, bottom and sides for dew and rain.  You must like sleeping in a hammock.

Aluminum cots and foam pads come in under 4 pounds for those designed to be light.  Some, however, are junk - the cheap ones/ all the ones at Walmart.  I have one that holds 250 pounds,  weighs just under 4 pounds, and has lasted twenty years, including 19 summer camps.

Self-inflating foam-filled air mattresses are comfortable and insulate well.  They are a proven technology - over forty years old.  Originally by Thermorest, but many other makers once patents expired.  Open the valve and they inflate, roll and sit on to deflate, then close valve to keep deflated.  Many sizes.  The one I have used the most - "deluxe" model  (4 lbs 6 oz on my scale; R 6.8)  fits in a large roll tote with my 3-season sleeping bag.

I believe that, with few exception (such as a National Jamboree, the Official Record of the passing of Merit Badge requirements is the "Blue Card" and no other record. BSA, Guide to Advancement (2019) at pp. 42-43.

Here is a statement of the theory:

"The Unit Commissioner's Role

A commissioner plays several roles, including friend, representative, unit "doctor," teacher, and counselor.

The commissioner is a friend of the unit. Of all their roles, this one is the most important. It springs from the attitude, "I care, I am here to help,what can I do for you?" Caring is the ingredient that makes commissioner service successful. He or she is an advocate of unit needs. A commissioner who makes himself known and accepted now will be called on in future times of trouble.

The commissioner is a representative. The average unit leader is totally occupied in working with kids. Some have little if any contact with the Boy Scouts of America other than a commissioner's visit to their meeting. To them, the commissioner may be the BSA. The commissioner helps represent the ideals, the principles, and the policies of the Scouting movement.

The commissioner is a unit "doctor." In their role as "doctor," they know that prevention is better than a cure, so they try to see that their units make good "health practices" a way of life. When problems arise, and they will even in the best unit, they act quickly. They observe symptoms, diagnose the real ailment, prescribe a remedy, and follow up on the patient.

The commissioner is a teacher. As a commissioner, they will have a wonderful opportunity to participate in the growth of unit leaders by sharing knowledge with them. They teach not just in an academic environment, but where it counts most—as an immediate response to a need to know. That is the best adult learning situation since the lesson is instantly reinforced by practical application of the new knowledge.

The commissioner is a counselor. As a Scouting counselor, they will help units solve their own problems. Counseling is the best role when unit leaders don't recognize a problem and where solutions are not clear-cut. Everyone needs counseling from time to time, even experienced leaders."

Down through the generations, many examples can be cited of adults creating their own requirements for advancement.  Indeed, they may have the power to enforce those requirements.  Such examples of extra requirements were the most common reason for appeals to Council when I sat on the Appeals Committee of the Council Advancement Committee.

8.0.0.2 Boards of Review Must Be Granted When Requirements Are Met

A Scout shall not be denied this opportunity. When a Scout believes that all the requirements for a rank have been completed, including a Scoutmaster conference, a board of review must be granted. Scoutmasters—or councils or districts in the case of the Eagle Scout rank— for example, do not have authority to expect a Scout to request or organize one, or to “defer” the Scout, or to ask the Scout to perform beyond the requirements in order to be granted one. Neither can a board of review be denied or postponed due to issues such as uniforming, payment of dues, participation in fundraising activities, etc.

8.0.0.4 Wearing the Uniform—or Neat in Appearance

It is preferred a Scout be in full field uniform for any board of review. As much of the uniform as the Scout owns should be worn, and it should be as correct as possible, with the badges worn properly. It may be the uniform as typically worn by the Scout’s troop, crew, or ship. If wearing all or part of the uniform is impractical for whatever reason, the candidate should be clean and neat in appearance and dressed appropriately, according to the Scout’s means, for the milestone marked by the occasion. Regardless of unit, district, or council expectations or rules, boards of review shall not reject candidates solely for reasons related to uniforming or attire, as long as they are dressed to the above description. Candidates shall not be required to purchase uniforming or clothing to participate in a board of review.

I was an SA with one troop for 25 years.  Our Unit Commissioner appeared at a meeting once  - of the Troop Committee as it happened - never at a troop meeting or activity where Scouts would be present.  I have been repeatedly told  by CCs and DCs that the council goal is to have 1/3 of units "covered" by a UC who "contacts" each of "his" units once a quarter.  

2 hours ago, Treflienne said:

I had a fourteen-year-old who joined BSA with extensive backpacking experience who absolutely detested and despised the name "Tenderfoot".

Go back to Baden-Powell's original definition, "A Tenderfoot is a boy who is not yet a scout"  from Scouting for Boys page 36.  Call the kid a "Tenderfoot" as soon as he or she turns in his/her registration form.  Leave the rank requirements (and insignia) for "Scout" and the current "Tenderfoot" the same as they are not, but call them "Fourth Class Scout" and "Third Class Scout".    

It really seems backwards for "Tenderfoot" to be a lower rank than "Scout"

 

 

Apparently, BSA agrees.  "Tenderfoot" is, of course, a higher rank than "Scout."