TAHAWK

As a Wood Badge Ticket item, I agreed to prepare a draft of a revised Wilderness Survival Merit Badge pamphlet.

I can send a copy of the draft revision to anyone willing to supply me with their email address. It is a 73 page Word document with illustrations; in short, a BIG file. I may have to send it in piece parts.

It has a table of contents, and the subtantive material tracks the proposed requirements.

It does not, as some suggested, go back to Olsen's original "primitive living" approach but does reintroduce navigation and self-rescue.

The bibliography is as up-to-date as I could make it. Dead websites have been eliminated as well as all websites that only sell training courses.

Any feedback you are willing to give me would be appreciated. Feedback I have already received from WSMB Counselors has been very helpful.

Per the editorial staff of Scouting Magazine, the three step method described above will appear in the new BSHB, consistent with the HBSM and the April Boy's Life article.

We have used a cold sanitizing rinse in out Troop since 1982 with no cases of the "runs" we know of in 51 weekend backpackers, fourteen week-long expeditions, three Philmont expeditions, and hundreds of weekend campouts.

When backpacking or canoeing, we use the (very) well-scraped large pot as the wash pot (wash in collected rinse water) and rinse with a Sierra cup from clean, hot water from the medium pot. The sanitizing rinse is in a small plastic tub, the only "extra" gear over the method taught in the current BSHB.

As implicit in the above, chlorine in a hot first rinse, with the added problems of soap and organic content, is a waste of chlorine.(This message has been edited by TAHAWK)

Da Beav: "Yah, spendin' a lot of time canoein' lakes and such. Boilin' is a given for any kind of cookin' but it's a nuisance for drinkin' water. I and most of the units I'm aware of use iodine in one form of another, either the PolarPure crystal stuff (by far da most economical if yeh use it a lot), or the tabs. A few have tried da funky two-part chlorine option which avoids the decay rate problem, but I haven't tried. I have tried the ozone thing since a buddy had one; kinda pesky and finicky."

Hey, Beav, some of da nasty "stuff" in ya' pond don' get kilt by iodine.

http://wwwn.cdc.gov/travel/contentWaterTreatment.aspx

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11990150

http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA234938

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/giardia-infection/DS00739/DSECTION=prevention

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1349767

(Dat Mayo don' go on sandwiches; NIH = National Institutes of health; "cdc = Cenetrs of Disease Control).

Filter den chems (unless Sawyer .02 micron filter) or boil.

HoKa?

"1. Do you always attend your council camp for summer camp? "

No. Unfortunately, staff is weak, and that results in poor program. For Troops that eat in the dining hall, food has been poor, hitting a new low last year with mouldy bread and spoiled milk (but cheaper because purchased out-of-date). A different Camp Director and different Program Director each year does not help, expecially when they have been very junior paid Scouters with no clout to even tie the struggle with the bean-counters in upper management who make profit the supreme goal. There is no tradition of Staff service.

"2. Do you feel obligated to support your council camp by attending summer camp there instead of going out of council?"

No. Council is to serve the Scouts, not the other way around. We have done more than our share of service projects at the camp and contributing money. We have furnished adult staffers. But we draw the line at writing off summer camp for the Troop.

"3. Do your Scouts decide on which camp to go to or is it a given that you will attend your council camp?"

DNA

"4. Do the adults in your troop have a say in the decision? If so why?"

Scouters present several choices to the leaders for the years we attend a Council's camp. Every other year, we run our own summer camp. Thus far, we have encountered ups and downs -- usually strong program areas with the exception of Scoutcraft or waterfront. Two camps had weak Scoutcraft AND weak and dangerous waterfront. We have encountered many Merit badge mills. So we are trying yet again this year to find a "home."

Magnesium shaved from a "Doan Tool" easily blows away in a mild breeze. Shaved onto the sticky side of duct tape, it stays put. Plus, the tape keeps burning long after the magnesium has flared out.

Mineral oil removes sticky from duct tape and is food quality.

Blister prevention.(This message has been edited by TAHAWK)

Again, WB left the all-Scoutcraft format in 1972. You will have a hard time (not impossible by any means) finding anyone to personally testify to how that worked. An experimental "traditional" all-Scoutcraft course sponsored by Region here in Ohio in the 1980's was, by consensus, a flop. Perhaps it was all the poision ivy. (-:

Seaton was an outdoors skills and Indian craft person, never an administrator. An administrative course, if one existed, might be named for Darth West.

WB now spends zero time on administration of the program. What training there is for unit Scouters in administration is part of "basic" training. WB is leadership and motivation with just a pinch of you're-on-your-own-learn- from-each-other Scoutcraft.

Our Council's IOLS courses are staffed from multiple districts each time. The SPL for our course in May is the immediatlely past WB Course Director. Most of the staff is WB trained and the minimum experience in Scouting is 11 years. Most are over 25 years. There is competition to be on staff in the sense that more want to be on staff than there are slots.

The notable exception is the "one day" course that our departed Exec sanctioned (and the Scouting Division did not). That was minimally staffed and pretty much what you expect when trying to reduce 23 hours to 8 -- indoors. Yeech! Sorta' "Pretend to require each unit's lead Scouter to be trained, then pretend to train them."

John-in-KC, I like your ideas. If we can pull it off, that is the sort of thing we will be starting next year under the title "Advanced Outdoor Leader Skills."

"To quote National: 'Incorporating leadership concepts that are used in corporate America, the course teaches participants the basics of listening, communicating, valuing people, team development, situational leadership, problem solving, and managing conflict. Once the skill is learned, each member is given the opportunity to use the skill as a member of a successful working team. At the conclusion of the course, each participant develops a set of personal goals related to his or her Scouting role. Working toward these goals allows each participant to practice and demonstrate new skills.'

Whereas WB used to be the "Pinnacle of Scouter training".

Used to be that you would see a Scouter with WB beads and know that that person knew quite a lot about the program they WB'ed in. Now-adays, a brand new Tiger Den-Leader with less than one year can earn WB beads and still not know what the cubs need for advancement.

So what is the new "Pinnacle"? What training is there for the Scouter to teach the outdoor skills that s/he can teach to his Pack/Troop? How can s/he teach that Scouting is a game that teaches in the outdoors when s/he may not know them? WB used to be about the program. Now it is about the management.

How is WB different from a Covey (sp?) course in management? What does Covey know of tracking, pioneering, Day Camp, Camporees, Webelorees, Tote-n-Chip, or any other thing the boys like doing?

I also regret that I did not go through the old WB course, although I would have to have gone through the Cub Scouter Course then. The new one is NOT worthless but is not a Scouting specific training either.

Agin, just my $0.02. I would like some of the Outing put back in Scouting.

YiS,

Rick "

Wood Badge was primarily about outdoor skills until 1972. Then the new Wood Badge came out, focused on the White Stag eleven "Leadership Compentencies" (later "Skills"). Boy were there moans in cerain circles! It was the end of Wood Badge!!! "Watered down Wood Badge!"

I guess I was not so shocked because I had taken White Stag in California years before. When was invited to take the "new" Wood badge course in 1984, it has a great experience notwithstanding my prior exposure to White Stag. I felt that I better understood what Banathy was teaching in the 1960's.

I did wonder why teaching folks how to lead was "scheduled" after years of leading -- as a sort of capstone or regognition of veteran status. Seemed like the directions for operating the "machine" should come earlier in the career, but . . . .

I do think there is a need for a course to follow-up on IOLS and WOL, and I suspect one will happen in my Council this Fall, put together by volunteers with the already-given blessing of Council. Certainly, the Handbook and Fieldbook do not contain the information they once contained. We are already supplementing the IOLS syllabus-level material with handouts as it is, in part to correct obvious errors that have crept into the official literature and errors that have always been there.

Still, even as one whose greater interest is in the Scouting method of Outdoor Program, I not sure why outdoor skills training should be more of a "pinnacle" than training in leadership.

As for training in areas of perceived existing competence, All-pro's in mant professions still practice. One thing about teaching is the opportunity for Staff to learn from other Staff members and from the trainees.

How is Wood Badge different from a course by Blanchard, who helped B.S.A. develop the original 21st Century syllabus? The Scouting context and examples aside, there are large differences. Haven taken both courses, I can say that much more learning and give-and-take goes on because the vast majority of those taking Situational Leadership do not want to be there and have very little interest -- and the staff knows that. In WB, the trainees are self-selected (the odd paid professional excepted) and largely highly motivated to learn, as opposed to merely attend. The Blanchard staff was very competent, BUT one could tell they had said the same words over, and over, and over. Very little passion. Then there is the cost difference.

You do understand, I hope, that much of the eleven Leadership Skills of the second version of Wood Badge are still there. There is coverage, with different labels sometimes, of communiactions, understanding the needs and characteristics of the "team" ("Group" "Team" Big difference?), counciling, planning, using different leadership styles (but now with a rationale for when different styles may be more useful), teaching, and other "skills" of the second WB course.

We are not likely to go back to a outdoors skills-centered course that went away over thirty-five years ago.

I do, however, understand that not everyone likes chocolate, however strange that seems to me.

Cliques are not uncommon. Peopel are inclined to trust those "like them" and that they already know. But excluding a Scouter simply because he is different is contrary to what is taught in the current (third version) of Wood Badge. There are many paths to wisdom, and Scouting is supposed to value diversity.

Frankly, given the need for more -- always more -- competent help I have seen in five Councils, I suspect there is a slot at District or Council level that you may fill if you elect to do so, WB or no. Some training special may be prerequisite for some jobs, like Commissioner's training for Unit Commissioner jobs. Have you asked at your Service Center about help needed? Are you willing to comute to Ohio?

My neighbor talking me into joining his Troop when I had just turned 11. In a month, he had moved, but I stayed with the Troop for 11 years. Then, I moved away, got tied up in grad school, marriage, etc.

Those were great times, and they provided a basis to say "yes" when I got the "If you don't agree to be Cubmaster. . ." speech after 15 years on the sidelines.

Plastic bowl (from when margarine tubs were sturdy)

Lexan spoon (cream soup shape)

Aluminum cup - either dented or has "character"

(don't drink coffee/allows boiling if needed)

Piece of plastic from a three-ring binder cut to fit shape of bowl for scraping out.

S&P shaker

All components are from 1981 except bowl that cracked on a backpacker in Canada five eyars ago. But I bought 25 more at a house sale for $.10 each. (-:

"And lets not blame the camps, they try and do the best they can with the resources they have. If the troop wants quality advancement, then the troop needs to take control. If troops are going to be passive with their program, then cant really complain."

It's people and their behavior.

I blame the Council paid professionals who, as a matter of deliberate practice or reckless indifference, preside over the handing out of unearned MB's as a device to fill their camps/produce revenue.

I blame the Council Advancement Chairpersons/VP's who go along with such a farce.

I blame the "Camp Inspectors" who make zero effort to see if the program areas are actually functioning.

To a lesser extent, I blame the human tools used to produce this dishonorable result - the so-called Merit Badge Counselors who hand out unearned MB's. It is the Merit Badge Counselor who is the the person responsible for determining if a Scout has passed the MB requirements -- not the Troop.

Control? Under B.S.A. policies, the Troop does not "control" the process beyond the SM's signature certifying that the Socut is ready to earn the MB. In the real world, as your comment suggests, that may not result in MB's actually earned.

But if a Troop plays "cop" to catch the violations of Scouting's written rules, that does not relieve the "crooks" of responsibility. Trustworthy. Honor. Ethics. Values.

EXAMPLE: In a camp in WV, Scout appears in Troop campsite on Friday with signed blue card for Pioneering; yet, he cannot tie a single required knot, much less any of the required lashings. Required project? Forgedaboutit!

EXAMPLE: In another camp in PA, MB Counselor for Pioneering announces on Monday that he knows almost nothing in the MB pamphlet -- knows few of the knots and none of the lashings. He asks if any of the Scouts can teach the MB. He then signs over 20 blue cards on Friday. Knowing nothing by his own admission, how can he possibly know if a Scout has passed? And not one Scout did anything towards the project requirement. Not one earned the MB on that ground alone.

EXAMPLE: In Ohio, MB Counselor waits until Thurday night for the "night-in-a-shelter" requirment for Wilderness Survival. It rains. MB Counselor decides staying out in the rain is out of the question. Scouts might get wet in the pitiful excuses for shelters they have built (I saw them. I sugegsted use of rain gear. "Too late," I was told. "They have been sent back to their Troops") Nevertheless, all MB candidates receive signed blue cards on Friday, even the ones who could not start a single fire using "primitive" methods. (The "Counselor" was 17 and did not, himself, have the MB or the skills/knowledge required to earn it . Nor did any of his four, younger assistants.)

EXAMPLE: In Ohio, WV, PA, Wis., 45 Scouts sit at tables. When a single Scout gives the correct answer to a question, all receive credit as if they had individually shown that they know the information. Many of the questions are corruptions of a requirement that the Scout demonstrate a skill. (This is a common pattern we have seen in at least one program area at every camp we have attended in 28 years. One camp that followed this method for all Scoutcraft MB's and First Aid MB also prohibited unit Scouters from participating/helping in the program areas -- even registered Counselors for the MB's. Our role was strictly limited to silently watching - and retching.)

EXAMPLE: In Ohio (in a camp with the best physical resources I have ever seen = $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$), Canoeing MB candidates literally do not get in a canoe until Friday. Yet two MB Counsellors somehow pass all 37 candidates -- in 50 minutes. Upon checking, our four Scouts simply do not know how to paddle a canoe. In fact, they have trouble getting in the canoe without rolling over. (But non-swimmers in PFD's have been out canoeing all week -- some out of sight of any lifeguard.)

EXAMPLE: Almost everywhere, our Scouts return to camp complaining that the staff in some program areas are not knowledgeable and apparently are simply going to hand out the MB's simply for "bein' there and not fallin' asleep." They prove to be correct, and several of our Scouts refuse to accept the blue cards for MB's they know they have not earned.

Which is why we do our own SC every other year.

How about offering MB's only when you have competent Counselors and only to numbers of candidates that you can actually honestly, individually pass? Oh. Wait. That would cut into the numbers of "MB's EARNED THIS WEEK !!!" announced at the closing campfire.

Camp Manatoc sounds like what we would like to see in a BSA camp. I'll bet they are full most weeks, if not every week.(This message has been edited by TAHAWK)

We are trying a new BSA camp that has NUMEROUS Merit Badge offerings and little required in the way of prerequisite work. It will be interesting to see if it is another MB mill, as have been the last four BSA camps we have tried in Ohio, PA, and WV - all of which had numerous under-aged -- and even more importantly, very unqualified -- "Merit Badge Counselors." In talking to paid professional Scouters, I am told this is a well-known problem that there is very little interest in addressing.

"The same qualifications and rules for apply to counselors for council summer camp merit badge programs. All counselors must be 18 years or older, but qualified camp staff members under age 18 may assist the merit badge counselor with instruction. (These assistants are not qualified to sign off on a Scout's blue card nor may they certify the Scout's completion of a merit badge.) As always, each counselor must maintain the exact standards as outlined in the merit badge requirementsnothing deleted, nothing added."

The Scouts could assemble a proper PSK - a selection of basic gear that fits around the neck, in pockets, or on the belt. I like the idea of adding other things that might be in a car. They would receive no accurate guidance for the WSMBP on a PSK (It confuses "10 Essentials" with PSK.), but you could help them. That would give them at least one way to start fire, purify water, and garbage bag-sized item (as suggested) for shelter.

The main survival knife, as suggested in the BSA Complete Wilderness Training Manual (2007) at pp. 32-33, should be a stout fixed-blade sheath knife, although a 16" khukuri seems a bit much.

If a pocket knife is preferred on grounds that it would be more likely available, it should be a well-made quality pocket knife. Why a "scout" pattern is preferred to a stout lock-blade escapes me, but to each his own. As Bear & Sons knives are showing up in Scout Shops replacing the "CHINA" junk, there is now an alternative to the very good Victorinox BSA knives. However, you cannot strike a spark with natural flint with a stainless steel knife.

"We've had boys go to camp and do "Communications" badge. Instead of actually being required to go to a public meeting (city council, school board, debate), the group had a mock meeting during one of their sessions where they pretended to be the meeting."

Then the camp is one of the all-too-common Merit Badge "mills." The "boys" did not, in fact, meet the qualifications for the MB. A camp cannot change the requirements. Should we allow this sort of travesty to happen when we know of it? Trustworthy? Honor?

As for Wilderness Survival, it OUGHT to be a good one. The Scout should learn not merely "modern" survival techniques but also a general approach to use in most any crisis.

Unfortunately, it's a mess, with silly requirements (Needs for survival can only be listed as priorities [i.e. order of importance] IF the survival situation is specififed, not in the abstract and a fire started with a butane lighter [literally not "matches"] is hardly an addition to skills).

The 2008 (really 2007) pamphlet has several significant contradictions ("stay put" but numerous specifications for a suitable site to stay put + no imfromation on navigation/ movement).

It also contains simply incorrect or very misleading information (re PSK's [vs. "essentials"], water purification, fire-by-friction, clothing for the wilderness, and fire by natural flint and steel, for just some examples).

Half the websites in the bibliography were dead for years before 2007 and others have no substantive information -- just sites to sign up for commercial courses. The Angier book cited was written in the 1950's, and he wrote more up-to-date books years later.

Not to mention the conflicts with other official BSA publications on outdoor skills and the books cited in the bibliography. (Which the author(s) probably never read.)

The pamphlet should be written by those with expertise and an ability to write clearly.

And why a "Citizenship in the World" badge when the phamphlet clearly and accurately explains why no person can be a citizen of "the world." Namely, "the world" is not a nation state and citizenship is bestowed by nation states. Perhaps it could be replaced by a badge that requires that the Scout learn about the history of world Scouting and BP's hopes for what worldwide "Scouting for peace" might achieve.

"We've had boys go to camp and do "Communications" badge. Instead of actually being required to go to a public meeting (city council, school board, debate), the group had a mock meeting during one of their sessions where they pretended to be the meeting."

Then the camp is one of the all-too-common Merit Badge "mills." The "boys" did not, in fact, meet the qualifications for the MB. A camp cannot change the requirements. Should we allow this sort of travesty to happen when we know of it? Trustworthy? Honor?

As for Wilderness Survival, it OUGHT to be a good one. The Scout should learn not merely "modern" survival techniques but also a general approach to use in most any crisis.

Unfortunately, it's a mess, with silly requirements (Needs for survival can only be listed as priorities [i.e. order of importance] IF the survival situation is specififed, not in the abstract and a fire started with a butane lighter [literally not "matches"] is hardly an addition to skills).

The 2008 (really 2007) pamphlet has several significant contradictions ("stay put" but numerous specifications for a suitable site to stay put + no imfromation on navigation/ movement).

It also contains simply incorrect or very misleading information (re PSK's [vs. "essentials"], water purification, fire-by-friction, clothing for the wilderness, and fire by natural flint and steel, for just some examples).

Half the websites in the bibliography were dead for years before 2007 and others have no substantive information -- just sites to sign up for commercial courses. The Angier book cited was written in the 1950's, and he wrote more up-to-date books years later.

Not to mention the conflicts with other official BSA publications on outdoor skills and the books cited in the bibliography. (Which the author(s) probably never read.)

The pamphlet should be written by those with expertise and an ability to write clearly.

And why a "Citizenship in the World" badge when the phamphlet clearly and accurately explains why no person can be a citizen of "the world." Namely, "the world" is not a nation state and citizenship is bestowed by nation states. Perhaps it could be replaced by a badge that requires that the Scout learn about the history of world Scouting and BP's hopes for what worldwide "Scouting for peace" might achieve.

This is a topic near and dear to me because I teach woods tools in IOLS in the limited time allocated to that topic.

Legends? You bet. Such as the legend I have heard (and read) repeatedly that B.S.A. policy is that sheath knives are to be avoided or "not encouraged" (as the BSHB would have it) -- or even "banned."

It's "large" sheath knives that are to be avoided or "not encourged," whatever "large" means. Nothing is banned. By negative implication, NOT "large" fixed-blade knives are at least permitted and possibly encouraged.

Apparently, "large" means a filleting knife to someone at B.S.A. because "a knife for cleaning fish" is given as an exception to the "large sheath knife" guidance. But when has anyone who has actually used one characterized a filleting knife as "heavy and ackward"? They are relatively light -- lighter than many folding knives (Think Buck 110.)--and handy.

And B.S.A. sells a "kitchen" knife with an 8" blade. "Large"? I guess so if a filleting knife is "large."

Keep the "kithen" knife in a sheath, as safety considerations might dictate, and what do you have? A "large sheath knife"?

"Carry" vs. not "carry" does not add much to the analysis for me.

It does not go to what the current rule actually is, but Scouts WILL encounter fixed-blade knives -- not only in Scouting but at home. The GSS acknowledges our educational mission. How does that mission not extend to a routinely-encountered home and woods tools sold by the B.S.A. to this day? Yet guidance on use of any fixed-blade knife has disappeared from current B.S.A. literature.

I am not sure what combination of factors result in the present lack of clear, rational guidance. Deliberate vagueness? Ignorance? Poor writing skills? All of the above?

As for the relative safety of hand axes, they are more dangerous IMO than a long axe due to the geometry created by their shorter handles and use with one hand. A mis **** with a hand axe when standing is more likely to end in a leg than a mis **** with a long axe.

And were safety the driving consideration, as opposed to being stylish, why sell and train in use of axes of any sort? The very rarety of the use of a violent impact tool suggests danger. (Yes, the hand axe can be a knife-substitute, but it's optimized as an impact tool.)

Then we have Council-specific bans on "all sheath knives" or "all fixed-blade knives." Why are "tactical," "speed-opening" folders (heavier for a given blade than a fixed-blade), many with unsafe locks, deemed acceptable when NOT "large" plain Jane fixed-blades are "banned"? How do Councils purport to ban fixed-blades while selling them in their camp trading post, allowing their use in campsites and program areas, and specifically telling Scouts they need to provide one for Fishing MB?

(And by the way, for those offended by the selling of Chinese junk tools, made in U.S.A. brands seems to be replacing the "CHINA" woods tools in our branch of the Scout Shop, although the best values are still on the secondary market.)

In this season of the year, remember that the Church has ruled that beaver is not "meat" for purposes of Lent. (-:

I volunteer at a Scout museum locally. I was looking at a collection from a deceased Scouter who took WB at Course 802-6, Jerome McCall, Camp Chief. This was the "old" course before the "new" course that is now the "old" course.

Included was a copy of the Song. The Beavers were "beaving" and could "beave no more."

Makes me wonder what other changes have taken place over the decades, besides stand up/don't stand up.

"currently half of the manufactures in china are closed, started closing in may of this year 2008...including textiles (pants shirts socks) and other useful 'stuff'"

I'd like to read more about this but I struck out on Google. Can you post links?

red feather:

"Having bought the latest version of the WS MBP, and with only a quick perusal, it appears to be a 'dumbed' down of the 2001 MBP. (and those before 2001)."

If you go back to the very first version in 1974, it was very different - more primitive living as noted above. Comparing 2007 to 2001, there are differences but my main disappointment is the lack of bringing the information up to date, continued lack or organization, and errors.

red feather:

"Asked several of our ASMs and older scouts what was wrong with the friction fire area of the MBP we cannot find much fault with it. The only comment from our scouts was that if the nylon cord had a low melting point it would not be much use. Please specify. Always looking to learn new things."

The only wood mentioned is oak, a relatively terrible choice that I cannot find positively mentioned in any book or website. Lubrication of the handpiece/spindle interface is not mentioned but is very, very common advice by experts. Help me out if I'm missing something, but the standard advice is to avoid hardwood for the spindle or hearth.

red feather:

"STOP is a viable first line of defence when lost or in a survival situation. Of course this can and should/would be modified to account for the emergency. To say that scouts whould follow the seven rules when a boat is sinking is, imho, a discredit to scouts and scouters who are capable of thinking."

Then why require them to memorize survival needs in nay set order? I see the mental element as so important that it's good to palce it first. Food is probably going to be last. All other is situational, and I think we should not evade teaching that the Scout must exercise judgment depending on the facts.

red feather:

"Every survival situation has its variences and requirements. The purpose of a merit badge is to introduce the scout to the field of the badge not to make them an expert."

I agree with the first sentence. I don't see how the other fits into the discussion. I don't think we are going to turn out experts. If we're back to a set priority list, the reality is that they are going to have to do the best they can. No sense fooling them about that. So a checklist of needs by all means - so nothing is overlooked under the stress of the moment but not a supposedly fixed order.

red feather:

"As a counselor and SM I do not recommend stainless steel [knives]... as they are hard to sharpen and not easily maintained. Part of our teaching process, eh? Every tool/item taken should have a dual purpose if at all possible. Takes time to learn these purposes and apply them."

I too prefer carbon steel vs. SS, but how hard a knife is to sharpen is a function of factors other than choice of steel. Some of the most worthlessly soft knives I have seen are SS.

Point is, SS will not yield a spark when struck by natural flint. Most all BSA packet knives are SS. Blithfully assuming the pocket knife will work is about as questionable as assuming "flint" will be found laying around. (Flint is found in one site in all of Ohio. Indians traveled days to get there. Can't dial up eBay if you need a fire in a survival situtation.)

red feather:

"LNT is to be observed in the training/learning process as stated in the MBP pg 26. When in a survival situation pg 26 indicates that LNT has second place to survival."

Read page 29. It expressly says that LNT is to be observed "in a survival situation." That is inconsistent with the language you found and with good sense.

red feather:

"Layering is laid out starting on page 15 and 16 and "other materials" are listed on the same pages. I assume they are talking about the modern materials that we have all been using for the last twenty years. Kinda up to those teaching this area of experitse to expound on."

I don't think they are "laid out." There is no hint that the layers are different in any way or have different functions - just dress in layers.

Polypropylene is mentioned but not for which layer. "Polypro" has been so superceded by the superior polyester fabrics for base layers that is much harder to even find. Polypro was very rarely used for other layers because it does not work well in that aplication.

Wool is not "terrific." If it were, it would be used by Arctic and Antartic expeditions (other than those from NZ (- Wool works. It's OK. It's also expensive, wears out faster, harder to maintain, weighs a ton when wet, and hard to dry out.

If cotton is so wonderful for "hot weather," and I think it too is OK, then explain the thinking of the same organization on the new wicking Field Shirt of nylon.

red feather:

"'STOP. Think THEN observe. Ready, fire; aim.' When lost STOP comes into real play to help prevent the first reaction of the newly lost of panic. If observation has not been ongoing before getting lost that just compounds the issue. Once lost STOP is vital to prevent getting even more lost.'

Respectfully, suggesting thinking before observation is to suggest prcessing data one has yet to obtain by observation. It should be Stop, Observe, Think, Plan, Act. Sadly, the virtue of "STOP" as a mnemonic device to have overcome the lack of logic in the formulation. So we have to explain "thinking" on p. 20 as gathering data - observing (Example: "Look around for landmarks." Is that not observing?)

red feather:

"Yes the first aid portion of the MBP is lacking but in arguement could be said that these parts of survial would be covered in the First Aid MB. (differnt subject )The lack of the inclusion of the first aid from 2001 is in my opion an issue."

Yup. We have first aid in MB after MB - same stuff. But if you take the space to specifically mention anaphylactic shock, saying that "immediate" treatment by a physician is required in a wilderness setting is rather silly, and omitting mention of antihistamines -- when the EPIPen will typically stop working in under an hour -- is neglectful. Mainline sources say to admminister antihistamines. One less entence of useless advice and one more of useful advice. Fair trade?

Goin' downstream? What about strong advice to avoid crossing fast-moving water in the first instance?

red feather:

"Depending on the age of the lost person, or the age of the one learing about what materials are flammable, a warning is approriate. Most dryer lint in not just cotton lint but also inclued, hair, hylon, wool, and other things that get caught inthe trap (do not know what they are but have not been able to identify them).

We are dealing with Scouts as our target customers, so at least eleven. At that age, the notion that tinder is, by definition, highly flammable is so fundamental as to be unneeded. Dryer lint is just tinder. No worse than cotton. Less flammable than the standard tinder - cotton slathered with white petroleum -- or really dry grass for that matter. Hair and nylon do not burn at normal fire temps. They melt. That's why they should advise use of dryer lint from cotton items.

By the way, three of the links in the 2008 printing are dead, three links are only places to sign up for survival courses, and one is just leads to the 32-year-old FN21-76 repeated PLUS offers to sell Rambo knives - in the worst sense of that term. That leaves 30% of the links as useful. Several here could do better, if only by checking to see if the links still work.

This post IS NOT as long as the MBP (64 pp.) It only seems that way.

The 2008 printing is the 2007 edition with colored pictures (One pictute is very slightly different. Can you find it?). Either will do.

Shortridge, thank you for contributing.

I posted:

[The 2007 edition]ays survival needs are capable of being listed in a fixed priority with no reference whatsoever to the facts of the emergency. Boat sinking? First Aid first! Start a fire before signaling that other boat. Ask any 11-year-old."

Shortridge commented:

"With respect, that is clearly a gross oversimplification of how the priorities for survival should be applied."

Shortridge,

I contend that you do not even know what the priorities are without knowledge of the emergency. A need for first aid -- or any other survival need -- may be a high priority -- or not a priority at all, depending on the facts on the ground. So why does the MBP say: "The priorities are listed at right in order of importance. 1. STOP 2.Provide first aid. 3.Seek shelter 4.Fire . . "? Don;t we need to teach the Scouts that they must decide the priorities to deal with an emergency (in the wilderness or otherwise), not some rigid list in a book. Often, rigid = dead. That would be the "think" and "plan" parts of "STOP."

Shortridge posts:

"Their main goal, as I see it, is to have Scouts recognize that in most situations, these are the order in which you need to do things. Positive mental attitude is at the top to make Scouts understand that keeping their wits about them and consciously fighting panic and rash action is critical. Food, which most not schooled in survival techniques might put near the top, is last, and for very good reason. You have to adjust the others to fit the situation, which I would hope most reasonable people would find pretty obvious."

Shortridge,

1) I fear you are right. They think they are doing something useful in setting a rigid order in which survival needs should be prioritized. But I can find no data to support the conclusion that survival needs should typically be prioritized in the order set on page 20 of the MBP or in any other order. I have looked long and hard. You can be just as dead from 98.6 issues as first aid issues and saved best by signaling or the ignored navigation vs. "seek shelter."

2) While "positive mental attitude" is no longer at the top ("STOP" is.), I have no problem with putting the mental aspects first as it controls all else. However, refusal to see a risk can be as deadly as fear/anxiety/panic. No "STOP" (or SOTPA), without some intimation that there is a problem.

3) Yup. Everyone agrees food has a priority down the list of survival needs, but a seventh "priority" that food is not a priority suggests confusion over what "priority" means.

Shortridge posts:

"So let's require CPR certification of all Scouts for rank advancement or renewal of membership. Seriously, let's! I'd be hugely in favor of that."

Shortridge,

how's about heart attack first aid, of which CPR is a part? (CPR would also help with anaphylactic shock, a treatment modality that the MBP ignores -- like antihistamines, instead counseling "immediate treatment by a physician" -- in the wilderness -- "immediate" [imagine a suitable emoticon.]) Since heart attacks kill eight times as many in the wilderness as hypo/hyperthermia, it seemingly deserves more than being totally ignored. At least that's one oldster's prejudice.

How about sleep as a need? It won't come easily in the excitement of a sirvival situation.

Avoiding unpleasant interaction with critters?

Might staying together be given a high priority in a particular survival situation that the MBP even discusses?

I do not suggest returning to the orgins of this MB in 1974. That was 1974. I'm OK with "modern survival" as a more obtainable skillset for Scouts.

Almost perfect?

The current (2007) edition of the MBP:

Is wrong on water purification - if you believe the CDC, EPA, Red cross, and U.S. military are right. Namely, the experts say ordinary chlorine (hydroxide) and iodine are dangerously complicated to sue and ineffective for field water disinfection.

Is wrong on fire-by-friction. If you can't see, I'd be happy to specify.

Is wrong on fire by natural flint and steel. Can't you see how? Pocketknives are made of what steel these days? (Pocketknives as the optimum survival tools, for pete's sake!)

Gives no information on ferrocerium technique but shows it above the incorrent information on natural flint and steel.

Says ignore LNT in a survival situation AND follow LNT in a survival situation. Got it?

For exteremely hot weather, says wear short-sleeves and shorts, illustrates wearing NO hat, THEN also says wear long sleves, trousers, and a brimmed hat. Clear on that?

Says survival needs are capable of being listed in a fixed priority with no reference whatsoever to the facts of the emergency. Boat sinking? First Aid first! Start a fire before signaling that other boat. Ask any 11-year-old.

Mentions only wool and polyprophylene as clothing materials. It's as if polyester fleece and polyester wicking fabrics had never been invented and come to absolutelty dominate the market - twenty years ago.

Fails to explain the different garments needed for the different layers. Hey, wool is wonderful. What else can be said?

Acknowledges that a site to wait out rescue has certain needed characterics THEN totally fails to discuss the need to move to find that site or how to safely do so. (At least there's something on lost-proofing in there now.) Guess you only get in troubble in perfect places. I know I do.

STOP. Think THEN observe. Ready; fire; aim.

Ignores the causes of 50% of all wilderness deaths - falls and heart attacks. (No worry about heart attacks? No adults along with the Scouts? They are issued at least two adults. Are they to return the adults in good shape after the trek?)

Fails to state you need to keep your feet together when going downstream. Pretty simple. On every water slide, and water slides don't have rocks and branches to cuase - emmm- unfortunate things to happen to spread legs.

Warns that -- GET READY FOR IT - tinder is highly flammable. A big WOW on that. I shiver in dread.

Never mentions cotton and white petroleum or warns that its COTTON dryer lint that's so scarry - cause it's highly flammable.

Ignores the need to administer antihistamines as a follwoup to EpiPens in a wilderness setting.

There is more. And less.

But if it's almost perfect . . . .

Any specifics? We seem to have moved to theory fairly quickly. I was hoping for more concrete suggestions.

Ok. SO the MBP correctly discusses charateristics of a good site to wait out rescue, then neglects mentioning safe navigation as a survival need AND gives limited info on map and compass navigation only. It's as if you will only get lost/break an ankle/have someone get sick at a perfect place. So add navigation, including sun, moon, stars, terain features.

The MBP says wear long sleeves and trousers to avoid sunburn and insects, THEN says wear T-shirts and shorts in the wilderness in hot weather -- and shows almost nothing but Scouts so dressed AND with no hats at all. So fix that.

The MBP says to ignore Leave Np Trace in a survival situation and a couple of pages later says, follow "the principles of Leave No Trace," including selecting a LNT campfire site to prevent "trampling of people cooking and socializing. Lose LNT in this context.

Again, written by a commitee that didn't communicate well or reach a consensus.

Any reaction to the information on chemical treatment of water? Anything better to be said on fire-by-friction? Fire by flint and steel with a stainless steel knife? Shpould the MBP mention the risk from two-legged critters? (Thought we were inta' reality regading people as a risk to Scouts.) I mean, I have my ideas but hoped for different/better ideas through collectiove wisdom and experience.

Is it the best introduction that it can be?

"I don't have the merit badge requirements in front of me, but it seems that one of the last requirements is to explain why consuming wild plants and animals is generally not a good idea. Sounds more like a bit of legalese to protect the BSA from lawsuits generated from poor counseling or poor learning!"

There was a prof in a large university who was The Man when it came to Ohio fungi. He nearly kiled himself when he "made a mistake." So I see real issues around foraging. On the other hand, cattails seems pretty easy and is better than any fungi.

What can we do better.

More requirements?

Less? Different?

Different material in the MBP?

Just looked again at the Angier book cited in the MBP. It's a minor rewrite of a 1956 book and its information on chemical purification of water is fairly inaccurate.