T2Eagle

Thanks Gentlemen,

I'll look for that video and see what our chapter does. I don't want to do anything like mess with the vote count, but a looong time ago I was Vice-Chief of my lodge and I think there are potentially some very good brothers in our troop but they have to get there first.

I am skeptical that these requirements are going to be adopted as listed here without more changes.

The most glaring absence is safety and first aid.

There is no way Carpentry will be able to be earned without discussing first aid, eye protection, etc.

The other thing that is unclear is whether you can use power tools. I do almost all the things described in Carpentry with power tools. Is this going to be OK to earn the merit badge or will they restrict them to hand tools? For those out there who have already started working on these how did you handle these issues?

I had asked this question originally and thought I should provide where our troop is currently. We sort of have a policy that all medications are held and then distributed by the SM or another adult leader. We also have an old troop form that asks parent to tell us what OTC medications we can administer and at what doses.

I am in favor of moving to what NE-IV-88-Beaver and vol_scouter do. My argument is that it's seems simpler, is in keeping with BSA guidelines, and once you accept the responsibility you have to get it exactly right. I'm not perfectly compliant on taking my own medications, so I'd rather not be responsible for someone else's.

Someone told me "oh you're not allowe to give a kid any medication without a parent's permission." I pointed out the scout can buy Tylenol, Advil, and Zyrtec at the local convenience store along with his slushy; would it be OK if I charged them a nickel a pill first?

I'm just back from Camp Chief Little Turtle, Angola IN. A big shout out to Anthony Wayner Area Council, this was our troop's first visit and it is a terrific camp: we had great weather, nice facilities, and just at dusk a beautiful barred owl flew up to a branch about ten feet away from us so we could get a great look at him.

Part of my time there was spent reading my Leaders Guide for Summer Camp from our Council's Camp Pioneer. I found this statement written sideways in about 6 point font along the edge of the "Special Food/Talent Release/Release of Scout from Camp" form.

"Although ESC and Camp Staff are not health care providers, it is our objective to respect the privacy of our campers following the Standards of the federal Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act 45 CFR Part 464, even if this is not required."

Brian85,

I am not disagreeing with you I just want to understand things correctly. Let me ask some questions for clarification.

Do you have citations for what you said?

"The BSA Medical Form is a legal document that can be used as evidence in insurance claims cases"

All documents, including probably this post, can be legal documents that can be used as evidence in insurance claims cases. Whats different about the medical form?

"If a unit violates the GTSS then they are not covered by the group insurance provided by the BSA"

Are you sure thats true? Thats not how most insurance works. My auto insurance and Homeowners insurance are in place precisely to protect me from stupid and dangerous stuff I do. If the BSA policy is different where can I get a definitive list of exclusions and coverages.

"If the medical form provided by the participant does not match the form on record with the health insurance provider, guess what?"

What? I cant think of anyway this makes a difference. If I get hurt on a scout trip my health care provider has to pay. If later they can find someone whose negligence caused my injury they can, on my behalf, sue that person to recoup their costs. This is what happens if Im in a car accident that is someone elses fault.

"The protected health information clause is very applicable. The prescription drugs taken by your youths is PHI."

Protected by who, from who. If I tell voluntarily tell my neighbor Im taking Viagra he can tell anyone he likes, I cant sue him or stop him. Similarly parents are voluntarily telling us about their kids medication. Who would we LEGALLY be prohibited from telling that?

"Imagine if you got arrested for possession of controlled prescription drugs for one of your Scouts."

This I can definitively say is not true. Carrying someone elses medications is not a crime unless your intent is to be committing a crime.

But I am curious how other troops handle scouts medication. This is an issue we are actively looking at.

I tried to spin this off in a new thread, but received some error messages.

Buffalo Skipper's tale of being passed over in his troop for election to OA is currently being repeated in our troop. Our troop routinely fails to vote in boys who are emminently qualified but for whatever reason aren't particularly popular. I was surprised the first time I saw this and disturbed the next, especially because there is no longer a restriction on the number of scouts from a troop who can be elected. Does anyone else have experience with this? Any tips on how to achieve a better outcome?

In the same vein, when do you announce the results of your election? We don't tell the scouts the results, we just let them wait to hear at "call" out at summer camp. But I was sitting next to a scout at camp last summer as he realized he had been passed over for the third time and wednesday night, parents night, of summer camp is a tough time to be shown that your fellow scouts either don't like or don't respect you.

Beavah and Blancmange,

Thanks. That's what I thought. Interestingly, right on the BSA Medical form they tell you that if you have any questions about HIPAA to go to that website. You have to wonder why they put that there when it's just going to make people think they're related.

In another thread I said that there are only minor exceptions to the idea that BSA can publish any information about you that you have given. I want to back away a little from that statement because one of the issues we're looking at in our troop is the application of HIPPA to BSA.

Does anyone know whether, how, and to what extent HIPAA applies to BSA.

We turn in Medical forms to our units every year. What legal obligations does that saddle a unit with.

Before I rejoined scouting I read a long legal analysis about HIPPA but I wasn't thinking at the time about scouting. We're not, at least with respect to volunteers, an employer, we're not a health care provider, we're not an insurer, we're not a reporting agency. Does it apply to us?

To my knowledge there is no blanket "privacy" or "confidentiality" law that covers the BSA. There are laws about confidentiality and privacy that cover some specific entities, most especially the government, plus some other obvious ones like lawyers and health care providers. There are some laws that cover the consumer credit and similar reports that the BSA obtains, but those laws are primarily aimed at the providers of those reports. For the most part all the information you give to BSA and all the information about what you do with BSA is their's, not yours, to do with as they please. If they want to put everything up on a website for the world to see there are no laws preventing them. There are some minor exceptions, but they are minor.

That's why this is so problematic. This wasn't stuff the BSA couldn't release, it was stuff they didn't want to release --- and now they have to anyway.

Sunshine is the best disinfectant.

You may not need to go it alone in getting this ridiculously stupid policy changed. Go to the next round table, ask ahead of time to put this on the agenda, and generate what is probably an already existing bubbling resentment in the other units. Have your district speak as one voice, have your "key three" take the complaint up the chain of command so that it's not you sticking your neck out alone.

If that doesn't work, maybe get together with a couple of other Packs and buy your stuff online for a couple of months-- dividing the shipping with the other Packs will reduce the cost. Fewer sales may get their attention, especially if you do it for all the summer day camp awards. That's always the heaviest season for the scout shops and they will notice if you go elsewhere then.

I can think of no good that can come of trying to keep any information like this secret. If we have nothing to be ashamed of then let the world see it. If there is something to be ashamed of --- then let the world see it and let the chips fall where they may.

I am also a Roman Catholic and believe the same should apply to the Church.

I used to work for a company (a midsize insurance company) that felt compelled to make all their decisions sound this way. We'd make a tough call that cut costs: maybe doing away with some perk or some nicety on campus, but we never said we were doing it because we just needed to save money. Instead someone would go back and think up some plausible more pleasant or positive reason for the decision, and thats the reason that would be published. Similarly we never admitted that some project just got screwed up and took longer than it should have. It was always spun that it was delayed so that it could be made better.

Not long into my tenure I started objecting if I was in the room when a decision was made and the published explanation didnt match the facts. I ruffled some feathers, but I think the credibility of our announcements went up. I always thought it was at least in part my scouting experience that influenced me to stand up. Its disappointing seeing similar things coming from BSA.

Folks need to remember that the world is actually full of other grown-ups who can handle the truth, even when it's unpleasant.

We had a scout apply for and then withdraw from this POR in our last election cycle. We may have it again starting in April. So we started thinking about what the position should be. We are looking at it as a sort of sergant-at-arms. A bugle/trumpet may not work in our meeting place but we may go to a whistle there and then a horn on campouts. It seems a lot of the position is about being there when needed and helping to draw attention and helping make the transition between one activity and another. The best way we can think of it is that he is there to help the SPL to bring some order to the chaos.

Wow Jersey Scout, Buck Buck, I have not heard or even thought of that in a lot of years, my troop used to play that all the time. I am originally from the other side of the river near you, the Delaware not the Hudson. I do not know if that will fly out here in the midwest but maybe if I use the Bill Cosby intro they will at least try it.

After that I'll have to teach them to play stick ball with half a pinky.

BS (basically stupid).

So who do they think is going to replace that fence? Would the Kiwanis operating budget routinely have enough money in it to put in 700' of fence? If not than it is not routine maintenance.

Lodge 489,

After rereading your post let me give a more technical answer. Until they are 11.5 years old or register as Boy Scouts, they can work on AOL, once they cross either threshold then they can no longer work on AOL. The choice is theirs and it is important that they make it. My own advice wouyd be to have them think hard about whether they want, at this point, to finish AOL or start the path to Eagle

Crossover is simply a ceremony, unless you actually become a Boy Scout, then you are a Boy Scout and cannot work on AOL. I am facing this in my Pack right now. We split our AOL and Crossover this year for scheduling reasons (we go both ways and there are arguments for both, but that's a separate thread). Both our Webelos II dens were, I thought, on track to earn AOL before Crossover, now all of Den I but only one boy from Den II will earn his AOL before our scheduled Crossover. So the boys from Den II have a choice, keep working on AOL -- or crossover, join the troop, and go on our Tenderfoot weekend as full fledged Boy Scouts. They may want their AOL, but given the choice between working on AOL or going camping as a Boy Scout --- part of a patrol, up with your buds, not a Cub anymore--- I know which I would choose.

True Tales from My Wastrel Youth

I had a friend in high school who took a bottle of lemon extract and added it to fruit punch from the cafeteria vending machine to see if he could "catch a buzz". That guy is now considered one of the top cardio-vascuslar surgeons in the Philadelphia area. He's on the billboards for one of the health systems.

Not exactly Scoutfish, this is all about process.

My post here is really meant to be apolitical, that's what OGE asked for. When our founding fathers first passed the Constitution there was a political deal struck that they would vote on and approve the Constitution as we know it, Articles I -- VII, and that then they would approve the Bill of Rights, the cornerstone of our liberties, as a secondary piece of legislation.

Looked at strictly as a process this is similar. The House and Senate almost never vote on exactly the same wording for the same piece of legislation, even on the most mundane and non controversial piece of legislation, stuff like what is national rose hip tea day. They then go back and "reconcile" whatever differences there are between the wording of the two Bills. Then the reconciled Bill goes back to both chambers to approve. The unusual thing here is that because the make up of the Senate changed by one vote the house needs to accept the Senate version without any changes in order to avoid filibuster. So it's not about whiteout and redefinition it is about real changes afterwards and how much the people in the House trust the Senate. Imagine if after ratifying the original constitution the big states reneeged on the Bill of Rights, suddenly it's a whole different world.

From a political science viewpoint, leaving out the merits of any of the proposals, it is an unusual and fascinating process.

BTW 'fish, kudos on your take on the scout discipline thread, I think you are on the money on that one.

I have to add one more note on this topic. My older brother, a retired SM and currently president of his local Appalachian trail club, once conducted an elaborate experiment involving marinating shrimp in wine for a backpacking trip (hes a rocket scientist, they do that sort of thing). He found that if you marinated shrimp in wine and chilled it down to the point where the wine froze, the rate that frozen wine thaws was slow enough that the whole mixture would stay healthily cold enough that you could carry it uninsulated for two days and then cook it for dinner. I think he was trying to impress a member of the fairer gender when he did this.

Our Council is holding one in May

http://www.toledobsa.com/docs/Spring%20Flyer.doc

My understanding is the Bill they're referring to is the one passed by the Senate with the then 60 Democrats voting in favor. Because of the change in the numbers caused by Scott Brown's victory, that exact Bill now needs to be passed by the House without changes so that it does not have to go back to the Senate for Reconciliation. If it had to go back to the Senate for reconciliation with even a slightly different House Bill than it could be subject to blockage by filibuster.

Whatever changes the House does want to make have to be made AFTER PASSAGE through a separate Bill under the budgeting process, a process not subject to filibuster.

Hope this was helpful. If anyone sees an error in the description here please amend it.

Within the past year I was told at both SM specific training (by a trainer from a neighboring council) and by my DE that permission slips are not REQUIRED unless you are seeking a National Tour Permit or an aviation activity. (I know I'm not using the exact terms on aviation, I was going to look at the wording on the form, but as is common the scouting.org website has a problem right now). I was also told that at least in our council local tour permits were not necessary unless you were traveling out of council. I recently searched the forums and couldn't find a definitive answer on that. So as the lawyers jump in please add REQUIRED times that you need a Local Tour Permit.

Thanks,

"If you can't cook without alcohol on a Scout outing then stay home."

Geez, lighten up.

Other than that thanks for the considered responses. I had read the G2SS and was interested in how others would interpret it. Although it is not unanimous, the majority opinion seems to be that the safer interpretation is not to use alcohol even for cooking.

A couple of further thoughts about cooking with alcohol on non-scout camping trips. One of the reasons I like using alcohol is that it is actually an easy ingredient to use to give strong added flavor in simple recipes. I find it especially helpful in one pan meals. Take Eamonns mussels in white wine. With whatever else the recipe calls for you cook your mussels, remove them briefly once theyre cooked, add whole wheat angel hair pasta, some frozen peas, cook for about four minutes more, throw the mussels back in and voila: a one pan meal with a low fat protein, complex carbohydrates, and a good green vegetable. Hmm, its Friday and lent and near dinner time, I may try this tonight.

As to the alcohol left after cooking, I had heard that prior to popular belief the alcohol does not burn off completely, but I had not seen the percentages before. They seemed kind of scary until I plugged in some numbers. Assuming in the mussel dish above you used 1 cup of wine, 12% alcohol, total cooking time about 15 minutes and serve five people, you end up with .0768 ounces of alcohol consumed per person. What does that mean? Well, an ice cream in a bag recipe calls for teaspoon vanilla extract per person. Vanilla is 35% alcohol by volume which means .08333 ounces of alcohol consumed -- more than the wine sauce. So unless you can eat enough ice cream to get drunk go ahead and cook with wine, just not on a scout trip.

In many of the recipes I cook at home I use some sort of alcoholic beverage in the preparation or cooking: wine, beer, vodka, etc. When I think about what to cook on a campout not using alcohol cuts down my repertoire. What do folks think about using alcohol for cooking on a scout camping trip? I am not talking about bringing along a fifth in order to use a half cup, but rather just bringing the pre-measured amount a recipe calls for.

I look forward to hearing your opinions.