sctmom

Cjmiam, Thank you for being honest. About who stays when they don't agree with the policy, I think it is about how severe they see the threat or consequences of any policy. I have looked at what is gained by me staying and what is gained by me leaving. I think everyone has their own level of when it becomes necessary to leave. At some point we each say we just can't live with a particular decision, whatever policy we are discussing. I don't agree with the current policy but can live with it. That is not the ONLY thing Scouting is teaching my son. My son loses if I pull him out of the program. If at some point I feel my son is worse off by being in BSA then I will pull him out. Some people believe having no ban on gays is more than they want their children exposed to. That's is the parents choice. I don't think we can judge each other's principles based on this. I don't refuse to talk to those I disagree with. I respect their choices and what they have to say in other areas.

The troop my son is about to join and I will too as a Scouter in some capacity, has the rule of no parent signs off on their own son's requirements. What I like about this rule is that my son is forced to deal with other adults than myself. He gains a lot in the area of interpersonal skills when made to do that. He has already looked at the requirements for Tenderfoot and said "I've already done that, why can't you sign off on it." My answer to him is that if he's already done it then it will be simple to do it again. I explain they aren't out to fail him, this isn't like getting testing in school, the troop really wants you to succeed, they will keep working with you until you learn it.

No need to apologize OGE. You asked an honest question that many of us wanted to know the answer to. You trusted other Scouters to on their best behavior. Unfortunately, a few people ruined it. This happens often in the "real" world as well. Based on the other posts about the poll, most people were honest and were upset what happened no matter which way they voted. We can take away a lesson from this --- you can't judge a group by a handful of noisy people.

As a Webelos Leader I've attended about 3 roundtables. I didn't know anyone there and felt invisible. Everyone was chatting with their buddies. I didn't know what the routine was for the roundtable and felt lost. I didn't get any more information there than what I can get by reading the handbooks and web pages. In fact, I felt I was getting a lot of wrong information during the Webelos breakout session (being told that in Boy Scouts the boys put up the adults tents, make the scoutmaster's coffee, etc.) It's about 20 miles from my house. My biggest reason for not going is that I'm a single mom, and it takes a whole evening to go, time for bed when we get back home. And right now it conflicts with my son's basketball practice.

"Is it legitimate to condemn religion for historical atrocities? First we had better examine the facts. " I wasn't condemn religion for it's histrocial atrocities / inaccuracies. My Bible (NIV Study Bible published by Zondervan) says there is some question about if Matthew and Luke drew more on Mark's account of Jesus than on their own first hand accounts, even though they saw Jesus first hand. But since Jesus didn't speak modern day American English, I can safely bet that he didn't say word for word what is in my Bible. Yet the meaning is the same. Or is it? I personally find it interesting to compare different versions of the same verses. I know many Church going Christians who also find this interesting. A verse or passage can take on a whole new meaning just be hearing it from a different Bible version. I'm not saying that's bad, in fact often it is good. But it shows that how translation of each and every word is important. Also, important is studying the context, author, time and setting of the text. And what about all the other documents that were left out of the Bible? Maybe they aren't religious but they still give us important background information about the Bible itself.

The writings of our forefathers also recognized religions other than just Christianity and Judiasm. They knew about Muslims and Buddhists. That's why they were careful about not putting the words "Christianity" in government documents.

My point was that even if the ark as described in the current day Bible can't float, so what? Does that make the story less important? NO! I wasn't discrediting the Bible. Even Bible scholars say you can't pick the Bible apart word for word and not everything is scientifically provable. Same with other religious texts and the same with orally handed down stories. No one was standing there with a pen and paper writing down word for word what was happening as Moses travelled around or when Jesus was speaking. These things were written down centuries after they happened. Does that make it less valid? Again, I think NOT! Taking the Bible word for word is meaningless, it's the overall message. The same for other faiths.

Geez, I really wanted to know the opinions of the people who frequent this board -- Scouters and parents of Scouts. I voted I would stay. Ironically I was betting I would be in the minority, but the person who "threw" the results was in what I thought was the "majority". Funny or sad? I saw on one article that BSA says 30% of adults involved in scouting say homosexuals should be allowed. I wish I could see the whole story behind that study. Of the other 70%, how many say NO and how many just don't know. And how many think it should be a local option. I'm not saying I know the answer to what the results would be, see how wrong I was about THIS poll! Oh, maybe some of you can tell me if this is a misquote or just upsets you, but I read that the head of BSA said if the membership numbers drop low enough then he would have the issue reconsidered. That bothers me, and I don't even agree with the guy. Does it mean it is about numbers and money? I feel if ONE boy is reached with my efforts then it is all worthwhile. If you agree with the policy, don't you feel that it should not be compromised just for the sake of membership numbers? (For some of you, that is a rhetorical question...I can guess your answer..LOL). By the way, those who I can guess would not compromise for "numbers", I sincerely respect you for standing by your beliefs. I may not agree with you, but I respect you.

I just came across that poem by Kipling. I thought it fit in well with Scouting. I am adding it to the folder of things I plan to give to my son when he is older -- along with a great silly poem about how I am going to act when I get old and he has to take care of me (like go yuck about green beans).LOL Seriously, I thought this might be a good poem to read at some special events for young men.

I had my son look over the requirements for the Tenderfoot badge and he realized that he knew how to do most of this stuff. He will be receiving his Arrow of Light and crossing over to Boy Scouts on March 11th. That following weekend he will go on a 2-night campout with the troop. He is very excited and was pleased to see that his work on the Arrow of Light is paying off so quickly in Boy Scouts. At the same time, he sees it as enough of a challenge to be different than Cub Scouts. Even though there are skills in scouting that I can teach him myself, I'm really looking forward to him having the chance to work with older boys and with other adults. For various reasons he has struggled socially at school since Kindergarten. Even though he has come a long way in that area, he doesn't fit in sometimes. I can already see the maturity growing when he is with the troop. We are "visiting" the troop meetings about every week now. I've become the unofficial spokesperson for other Webelos den in our pack that is about to crossover. Last week my son didn't want to wear his jacket even though it was getting cold. I ended up in the Troop Committee meeting with other adults. Later found out that the boys had went outside, my son was cold, the car was locked, he knew where I was but decided he should not come ask for the car keys. I'm not sure why he wouldn't ask, was it not wanting to "run to mommy" or not wanting to interrupt the adult meeting or thinking I would not want him to interrupt the adult meeting. He was in no danger of freezing, and he did comment on next time he would take his jacket just in case. Now, I just have to keep practicing that fine art of turning away and not worrying at Scout meetings. I must remember what I've told Webelos' Parents: Bite your tongue, put your hands in your pocket and move away from the boy!

If by Rudyard Kipling If you can keep your head when all about you Are losing theirs and blaming it on you; If you can trust yourself when all men doubt you, But make allowance for their doubting too; If you can wait and not be tired by waiting, Or, being lied about, don't deal in lies, Or, being hated, don't give way to hating, And yet don't look too good, nor talk too wise; If you can dream - and not make dreams your master; If you can think - and not make thoughts your aim; If you can meet with triumph and disaster And treat those two imposters just the same; If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools, Or watch the things you gave your life to broken, And stoop and build 'em up with wornout tools; If you can make one heap of all your winnings And risk it on one turn of pitch-and-toss, And lose, and start again at your beginnings And never breath a word about your loss; If you can force your heart and nerve and sinew To serve your turn long after they are gone, And so hold on when there is nothing in you Except the Will which says to them: "Hold on"; If you can talk with crowds and keep your virtue, Or walk with kings - nor lose the common touch; If neither foes nor loving friends can hurt you; If all men count with you, but none too much; If you can fill the unforgiving minute With sixty seconds' worth of distance run - Yours is the Earth and everything that's in it, And - which is more - you'll be a Man my son!

By no means do I want anyone to think that most males in BSA do not like women in scouting, in fact I have felt a very warm and sincere welcome. Even though many of us disagree on one or two subjects, I wish that all scouters would stand up and say what they feel. But let's not resort to name calling (of people or beliefs). Rooster, I thought the BSA's stance was that homosexuality was immoral not about pedophiles. Pedophiles and other sexual abusers are getting their kicks from the power they have over others. None of this should be tolerated. Homosexuals are no more likely to abuse children than heterosexuals. Most pedophiles maintain heterosexual adult relationships. "Nevertheless, I wouldn't trust an avowed homosexual man with my son for one minute. Well, lets be reasonableI wouldn't trust an avowed homosexual woman with my daughter either. " If we use that logic than we should never allow men to be alone with girls, including their own daughters, and we should never allow women to be alone with boys, including their own sons, because none of us can control our sexual urges for even one minute. For the discussions about what each faith believes, again I refer all of us back to our beloved Boy Scout Handbook that says we should respect other's beliefs and defend their right to their beliefs. It doesn't say you have to agree, in fact that is where the courage comes in. Does that mean we defend those who have hurt others? Does anyone truly believe that?

I find it very ironic to hear some speak of "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" when they themselves are guilty of this. Mom Scouter, Let me tell you I agree with you 100%, but you are wasting your time talking to deaf ears. You will soon be banished to the corner with me and therefore be ignored no matter what you try to discuss. Also, you will soon find out that some people do not believe you can do certain things within BSA because you are female. Don't give up. We have to do what is best for OUR sons, and raise them according OUR beliefs. Thank you for the link to ScoutingForAll. I also wondered how anyone can say "most members of BSA" are against atheists and homosexuality. Was there a poll I missed? I will gladly stand up and be counted for my beliefs, as I'm sure many on this board will be. As for the bulk of BSA (and our society), most don't think about it, and will not stand up and be counted one way or another. Happy Scouting! And have a good weekend! I'm going Scouting for Food!

I went to the pages referenced by OGE. It says the Board of Review can not retest the scout but by talking to him can decide if he meet the requirements or not. So, I would take that to mean if when asked about did he like learning to orient a map and he says "huh? what is orient? what map?", the BOR can say "stop, do not pass go, do again." Having been in the Cub Scout world for the past few years, I'm not sure I agree with your statement of "do your best". In Cub Scouts, the scout has to 'try' most things. Now, if I "try" to tie a tautline hitch and I try 10 times and I still don't have a tautline hitch, but I say "I did my best", did I really meet the requirement? (barring any severe physical limitations). I do understand the theory behind "doing your best" in a leadership position. This is for learning about leadership, not doing it perfectly or to a certain quality level.

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Welcome Mom Scouter. You can come sit next to me, yes that would be the chairs on the left side of the room. hehehehehe May I please recommend that everyone take the time this weekend to review the Boy Scout handbook about the Scout Oath and Law. I found it very helpful to look at what we are teaching our boys --- respect and defend the religious beliefs of others even if you disagree. This is repeated more than once. Now can we go talk about the new merit badge requirements and all those new Webelos crossing over this month?

I thought about this more as I drove home last night. I tend to like analogies when explaining things to myself or others. I know when I first heard of First Class in First Year that I thought "I think they are putting too much emphasize on the badges." I've heard other parents say the same. Now that I have learned a little bit more about Boy Scouting (thanks to this board and the Scoutmaster handbook), I see it differently. Just saying to people that it helps retains scouts, doesn't really click with most. Why does it help retain scouts? Because if you know the basics you have can enjoy the bigger adventures, be more comfortable and have more FUN! Like baseball, if you don't know how to hit or catch, it is not a fun game. But if you can hit and catch and throw (the basics), and you know the rules, you have a lot more fun at it. The same with music, once you learn the basics of music (don't ask me because I don't know what those are) you can have more fun playing a musical instrument. Reading a novel is difficult if you don't know most of the words, but after reading Dr. Seuss enough times, you can move up to the next level of books and enjoy them because you know the basics. Maybe this is could be helpful in getting the parents to understand the reason for encouraging (pushing) their boy that first year to be involved and to reach for First Class. Give the parents (and boys) some examples of how mastering a certain skill in the requirements will make future adventures fun. If you know how to tie 5 different knots then you will be more prepared to learn rock climbing. Being comfortable setting up camp gives you more free time in camp to go exploring.

Question from a new Boy Scouter here: If a scoutmaster sees that a boy is not ready for his Board of Review, doesn't he have a responsibility to talk to the boy and encourage him to hold off on the BOR? I would think that would fall under the category of being a mentor. Not having worked at the Boy Scout level, I don't know of a exact case where this might happen but it seems if the Scoutmaster sees my son is not ready to be a First Class scout then he should say "let's go over a few things before you go for your BOR" or "I think you need to hold off on the BOR right now until you feel more comfortable with Requirements X, Y and Z". Maybe the Scoutmaster thinks the Scout really didn't learn anything from the requirements but they somehow got signed off at summer camp. As a parent and based on what I've read, I think the Scoutmaster and other adults in the troop need to use common sense when applying "the rules". Each boy is different and each troop is different. I hope that the boys aren't being taught to be real picky about semantics of words like some of our politicians seem to do.

Once again quoting since I have the Scoutmaster's Handbook in front of me: "A Scout taking part in a Scoutmaster conference will be able to determine if he is ready to go before the board of review." Conference for Tenderfoot, Second Class, and First Class Congratulate the Scout on completing the advancement requirements, then explain what he can expect when he meets with the board of review.

Thanks Bob! I'm very inspired and upbeat about scouting since a few weeks ago when my 10 1/2 year old son says "I want to go back to that troop meeting, when can I go. I'm ready for Boy Scouts." Woohoo! The boy I thought would NOT be ready at 10 1/2! Also, we have located a good troop. About 25 to 30 active boys. They have more that come and go with the ball seasons. A true boy-led troop. Good group of active parents, at least 8 registered as ASM. Always willing to get some new boys and new parents involved. I'm also trying to figure out where I fit in, not wanting to be "mother hen" to any of the boys but wanting to be involved. It's a fine line to walk.

I happen to be reading the Scoutmaster's handbook in some free time at work today and came across this subject. In the chapter on Advancement (page 118 and 119), it talks about First Class First Year. "However, boys should not be pressured to advance or given deadlines for completing various badges. The speed with which he completes requirements, and even the decision to advance at all, lies with each boy." They recommend a special ceremony for recognized the scouts that have completed the First Class requirements. I like that idea and think it would appeal to the boys. Obviously, the boys would decided what that special ceremony would be. I think the sentence that strikes at my heart and brain as a parent is these requirements "provide a Scout with a solid grounding in the skills that will allow him to take advantage of Scouting adventures." Ah, the light bulb over my head went on -- then he will be more comfortable camping with the troop, he will have confidence in working on merit badges, service projects and such, he will know he can tackle most anything that can come up on a scout trip, that he can work with his patrol and troop, and that when he needs them, his troop & patrol will be there for him.

I said I was staying out of this area but obviously do not have good self control at times. In my opinion, even if BSA's stance should change, I don't think you are going to suddenly see this large influx of homosexuals and atheists into BSA. Those who are fighting the policy tooth and nail from the outside will go on to fight something else. A few will join, but not a lot. Maybe a troop here and there might be different but overall they aren't going to dismantle BSA. What percentage of conservative parents have their children joining BSA? From what I see it is not the majority. I just don't know how you can't at least give it a try. Cub Scouting has been a great chance for me to spend time with my son and to guide me in teaching him things he needs to know (first aid, citizenship, independence, etc.).

Thanks for all the info but y'all went WAY past me. I'm talking about 5 miles or less hikes in state parks on well traveled (level) trails. I know horrible things can happen there too, but not likely and help is VERY near. Many people on these trails carry their cell phones. I have seen the cell phone used to call 911 as they carried a small child down the trail. I need to a very basic first aid kit -- band-aids, antespectic wipes, gauze, moleskin, and what else?

New twist on this subject for me. As a Webelos leader, I had a sudden drop in attendance at den meetings over the last couple of months. I was calling parents last night to remind them of a few upcoming events (since I haven't SEEN any of them). One says "oh, I thought since my son didn't go to the next level that there was nothing left to do. I thought you had gone to Boy Scouts with your son." Despite the fact that I have said many times and even wrote a letter in November to say you don't have to have your Arrow of Light, and I WILL keep having den meetings for those boys not ready to cross over. I even went back and reread my letter --- yep, that's what I said. Apparently, some don't see the connection between Webelos and Boy Scouts (they've never attended any of the join activities we had together). Or they just don't get the reason for belonging to Scouts? Or they just don't care? Their boys were always having fun at the events they attended. Great, smart, active kids. Now, I've lost these BEFORE crossover! Would a den chief have helped? Den Chiefs are a rarity around here. I asked one troop and got a "yeah, right" shrug. Seems that the troops are not encouraging being a den chief.

A link to some poems online, lots of classics including some Rudyard Kipling. www.everypoet.com I also recently bought a small paperback book called "Classic Poems to Read Aloud". Ah, memories of having to memorize "Annabell Lee" by Poe in 10th grade English. My sweet, sweet Annabell Lee