sctmom

I think we have to teach our children that they should never be left alone with an adult without our permission. And we should only allow it in very special circumstances -- such as a trusted relative. It is a shame we have to take such actions, but obviously it is necessary. As I said in another thread, no one on one contact also protects the innocent adult who is wrongly accused. My mother always told my father that she trusted him about helping a stranded female motorist, it was the female she didn't trust! Trying to see through the eyes of a criminal, I realize how easily I could win over the trust of some boys. Especially those with few friends, problems at school or home, etc. They are such easy prey for sickos. Bottom line is that we must ALL take responsibility for making sure Youth Protection rules are followed. I think we should also try to get other youth organizations and schools to set the same rules. If we use the same rules every where then it will become the "norm" instead of the "exception".

Let's back up a minute. I don't think NJ was trying to say there is NOT a difference between being married and being and an "avowed" homosexual. The question he presented to Rooster was about was he an "avowed" heterosexual. Saying someone is "avowed" whatever doesn't make it right or wrong, it just says they acknowledge it. You are an "avowed" heterosexual if you tell others of your spouse that is of an opposite gender. If asked your sexual preference, you say you prefer the opposite gender. Like NJ said, I was only pointing out that the policy of banning gays would not have stopped this man because he is NOT an avowed homosexual. He would have denied it, probably still denies it. If you asked him to sign a statement to say "are you homosexual", he would say "NO". Let's get back to why didn't the Youth Protection policies stop this!

K9, that sounds like a good idea. I don't think parents realize that BSA has these rules since most organizations (including schools) don't. I know one dad who says "In Cub Scouts BSA had us convinced that a weirdo is behind every tree trying to attack our son." I also see this as protecting the adults. If you are never left alone with a child, you cannot be wrongly accused of anything. To me it is not just about sexual abuse, which of course is the worst thing imaginable, but there are other things that could take place --- alcohol, drugs, stealing, etc. I remember as a child being around a couple of different adults who appeared overly friendly to kids. My mother could spot these people a mile away and would tell us in no uncertain terms to NEVER be alone with those people. I was too young to understand why at times, but now I do. Her main explanation was a 24 year old needs to have friends his/her own age, not 12 year olds as friends. I've been concerned lately of the neighbor who thinks her 6 year old son should play with my 11 year old son. My son doesn't WANT to play with this child, and I would not let him play with kids 5 years older than he is. I was leary of the older kid a few years ago who wanted my son to go ride bikes in the neighborhood. My son was not allowed to leave the street yet, I said no. I think I will ask my son's troop about Youth Protection training within the troop. At a minimum sending home brochures to the parents who don't attend meetings, and making sure the boys are trained. If the boys know the rules, they will usually make sure the adults follow them.

I think grounding a kid from going to Scouts is sending a message that Scouting is optional. The kid is not having to live up to his committment and obligation of being part of the troop. My son was in DEEP trouble last week. We had committed to helping collect yard sale donations on Saturday. That was the ONE thing he was not getting out of, no matter what. On the one hand he had fun but on the other it was work and did take most of our day. If I had kept him home he would have thought "so here is how I get out of work and committments". I have also made him go to baseball practice when he was on restrictions. He also made a committment to the team. Last week I was going to restrict him playing in a game, but was going to make him go to the park and apologize to the coach and team. Then sit there and watch them play. Ended up the game was rained out, so he got lucky on that one. My son's friend got tired of Cub Scouts. He would rather stay home at watch TV. His mom said he couldn't go to scouts unless he finished his homework. He learned very quickly that he could stall on his homework, get out of Scouts, get attention of his mom and everyone else, and get to stay at home at watch TV. Even when it comes to homework, I tell him he has to deal with the consequences if the homework is not done before the Scout meeting. He had time to get it done, he knew the time limits, and I often have made a committment to be at the meeting. If he doesn't go, I can't go and leave him at home alone. I'm starting to see some progress about his time management (he's almost 11). It actually is working a little better by giving him a timeframe and let him decide what to do when inside that limit.

Rooster, that is TOO funny! LOL Perhaps he felt "lovely" and I should not judge the way he dressed. As a Scouter, I'm wondering did he practice Leave No Trace ethics (doubt it!). Did this cause him guilt in his later years?

Ah, yes the bathroom situation. Also familiar to any mom with a son and any dad with a daughter. A few family places, like malls now have "family restrooms" where you can take everyone in at one time and lock the door. Great for the parent alone with 2 or more kids. The other situation that is "odd" is when you know one of the boys outside of scouts. I knew my son's best friend before I became a Cub Leader. He spends the night at my house a lot. Yet, at Cub Scout events, I felt I should not be left alone with him. His mother obviously trusts me but at a Scouting event, I am no longer his friend's mom but a Scout leader. Along that line I have a question. Does "no one to one contact" include with your own son? If you are at camp and feel your own son needs a "private" talk, do you still make sure it is in sight of others?

Oh, one other thing I found in the Social Studies book was sort of funny. It was a picture of an old painting with the caption of "Daniel Boone lead settlers through the Cumberland Gap". The funny part was that in the picture one guy is dressed completely in white -- white shirt, pants and boots. AND it was SPOTLESS! Yeah, right! LOL He has been traveling on foot and horseback through the wilderness in WHITE and is clean!! They also all looked like they had just showered and shaved! Also, the trail is nice, clean and wide -- no leaves, limbs, etc. Now think about what you looked like after your last 2 night campout, where you drove in a car and camped in a "developed" area.

Let's talk about how to make sure Youth Protection works. Please, let's all try not to get off on the political side issues. Does your unit do the training yearly? Who is trained? How do you get the information to the parents? I think we all get comfortable and complacent at times and let the rules "slide". The parents may not realize the BSA has rules about 2 deep leadership and they should NEVER let their son leave for a campout with only one adult. The parents should understand they have the right and responsibility to question who is on a trip, what measures are being taken for safety, etc. I noticed on an overnight school trip with my son's 5th grade class that one on one contact was allowed between adults and kids. I almost screamed when someone said I should walk back to the dorm with ONE girl so she could get something. I stood outside the door while she got what she needed. My little bit of BSA training said "don't go in there, doesn't look right, it's the wrong thing to do." Also, I think we get comfortable with the people we meet in scouting. Quickly we feel like friends. The adults befriend the kids, as we should. You look at another adult and think "he's a nice guy". The kids are taught to trust teachers and adults. Then in a non-scouting environment, we let our son go somewhere with that adult. Most of the time no harm done. But not 100% of the time. I'd like to hear what others think.

I took a look again at my son's 5th grade American History textbook last night. It is published by Harcourt Brace and called "United States in Modern Times". Each chapter is made up of 3 or 4 "lessons". The teacher gives a test on each "lesson". I noted one 40 page chapter had 8 terms at the end to study and about 8 short discussion questions. Each lesson has some discussion questions. Thumbing through the book I saw the question of "What would you have felt living in the dust bowl?" The other assignment my son recently was related to a book their were reading for "language arts". They had to write an essay to answer this question: "Would you give your life to save someone else's life?" My problem with this is that I'm not sure that 10 and 11 year old kids have the cognitive ability to answer these questions. Their brains are not fully developed in some areas. They are just beginning to understand the world outside of themselves. I remember at that age having a hard time understanding that school went on as usual without me there!

But note, he is not an "avowed" homosexual.

Ed, thanks for supplying the link to Scouting Way. They are always looking for stories. You can sign up for their email list and get them emailed to you automatically. They also list the names of Boys who have recieved their Eagle Award and Girls who have received their Gold Award.

This is as disturbing as the Catholic churches thinking you only remove the ones who are caught "repeatedly". This man should never have contact with children again! He gets time to put his "affairs in order". These children and their families are scarred for life. I did some research online about people believing that pedophiles can be "cured" with cognitive therapy. But what is the risk if their "cure" fails? One child molested is one too many. Therapy only works if you want it to work for you. Also, these people often are top notch manipulators, they will manipulate the therapists into believing they are "cured". I don't know all the story behind this, but it does say the man was married. That doesn't mean he is not homosexual. It shows that you can't judge a book by it's cover.

Rooster writes: "As for your son's grade...obviously, your son would do much better if he got in touch with his feelings ...why memorize all of those boring facts? " Feelings? Hey, when I was that age my parents and teachers told me what I would think and feel!! No, I'm not on the PTA, since it only seems to be about fundraising (i.e. selling junk) to buy school playground equipment. Some of the principals around here have started an "advisory committee" made up of parents and teachers that meet 4 times a year to discuss issues. That is not very effective either. Not to mention I have only recently learned to be adamant about things (thanks to BSA..LOL).

My son's former pack does the flag ceremony at the PTA meetings each month. Also, the school does do the pledge every morning. I have found that young children, especially boys, are very fascinated with the flag. What a great oppurtunity to teach! My son's teacher has 2 main activities the kids have done ALL year --- one is draw maps. They have copied almost every map out of that book. The other is draw pictures of people. My problem with this is that even some great artist have a problem drawing people. My son seems to be gaining nothing from this. But tell him something is "trivia" and it is locked into his brain. Quixote said: "Social Studies has become sensitivity training." That's a good way of putting it. When my son was studying Reconstruction (post Civil War), there was a section in his book about sharecroppers. It lead the kids to believe all sharecroppers were black. Wrong! Many were white, including my grandparents. Not to mention how sharecropping has really been around for centuries, often called by other names. Right after that, I saw a letter to a newpaper where a lady said "sharecropping was started after the Civil War to help blacks". Guess she had never heard of land barons in the Europe.

I wanted everyone to know I saw this exhibit this past weekend. My 10 year old also enjoyed it. The exhibit includes many items. There are original letters and documents from 1776, officer's uniforms, original paintings of Jefferson and Adams, a small cannon, a couple of guns and knifes. They had the uniforms on mannequin. My son was stood in amazement at the fife player -- who was not much bigger than my small child! I'm sure he had heard about young boys playing the fife or drum or bugle, but this stopped him in his tracks, making it real to him. Those things were more impressive to my son than "just a copy" of the Declaration. I urge you to check and see if this exhibit will be near you. Then mark your calendar and make sure you go. The only admission for us was the regular admission to the museum it was at (which was free for under 16).

It is also about we need to know our history. I recently read that George Washington is losing ground in rankings of best presidents, when students are asked to do the ranking. Maybe this is why! Have any of you looked at your kid's social studies / history books lately? My son is in the 5th grade, his book is about American History. I have tried to help him study. The are no lists of terms and questions at the end of each chapter. Each page is full of pictures and sidebars, making it very distracting to read. I can't figure out what he is supposed to know. I guess this falls into the "dumbing down" category. Rote memorization is not always a bad thing. The few discussion questions in his book seem to be phrased as "How do you think the soldiers felt?". Now, I'm pretty liberal, but 5th graders need to know the facts first. My son is barely passing Social Studies, yet he loves to read about history and watch history shows on PBS and the History Channel. We went to the Carter Presidential Musuem this weekend and he told me lots of details about the Iran hostage situation, including how they were released once a new president was in place. But he is failing social studies?

Great story, thanks for sharing that. You should send that to Scouting Way (an online newletter that sends out stories like yours).

We had a similiar situation a couple of months ago. Representatives from one of the troops were there. The pack gave all the boys their Boy Scout handbook. The Scoutmaster removed the boy's blue shoulder tabs, Webelos hat and neckerchief, and shook their hand.

Quixote, My point is that homosexuals do not have sex with minors any more often than heterosexuals. Some of the sex of minors is legal and within a marriage.

Slontwovvy writes: Thirdly, we are talking only about avowed homosexuals. These are people that are members of activist groups, or are at least intent on disseminating such material. I thought avowed meant anyone who said they were gay at any time, not just activists. Eisely earlier quoted a statistic that 50% of gays have had sex with a minor. That is an obscene total!! That's an interesting statistic. What ages were both parties? Consentual? Let's also look at how many heterosexuals have sex with minors. Look around at the number of teenage pregnancies and I think you will see that a LOT of minors are having sex -- with each other or with people over 18. Most girls tend to date guys older than they are. Also, people under 18 can marry and have sex.

Bob White says: The fact is the Boy Scouts of America is a private club. We have a legal and a constittional right to choose out own membership. If you don't like it join another club. Having the legal right to do something does NOT make it the RIGHT thing to do. I have the legal right to drink myself to stupor in my home even in front of my child, but I dont believe it is the RIGHT thing to do. This will NEVER be local unit option on this topic. We cannot be a national program with thousands of units doing there own version. There are MANY local unit options. Units make many choices and still are within the rules and regs of BSA. Will we allow other faiths in our troop? Will we allow women to be Scoutmasters? How often will we camp? Will we say the pledge of allegiance and a prayer at each meeting? Will we go to summer camp? We are a national program with national rules approved by the U.S. Congress and the Supreme Court. To me this seems to contradict the stand of we are a private organization. The Supreme Court upholds the rights of many private organizations that do some pretty nasty stuff by most standards. Also, the Supreme Court does sometimes change its mind. After all it is made up of humans. Your claims about United Way actions and policies show you have as little knowledge of the UW as you have of the BSA program. Maybe less. The majority of people who want to see scouting change its stand on atheism and avowed homosexual members do so not to improve service to youth, but for political reasons. We are not a political organization we are a youth service organization. We will not be used for any groups political pawn. I think you are the one with little knowledge about the opposition. I have no political agenda. I venture to say that all the posters on this board, except one or two, have no political agenda. People on both sides of the arguments are standing up for what they believe is best for the youth. I invite anyone who wants to know the BSA's stance on this topic to read the articles on the BSA web site or write to the National Council Service Center and ask for information. What TJ and others say the policy and reasons are is inaccurrate and misleading. To repeat what TJ said, those articles are vague, at best. Even BSAs official leader has said he will reconsider the issue if membership drops. Doesnt that scare everyone? If he believed as strongly as a few posters on this board, he would NEVER even THINK such. I disagree with the policy and wish it would be reconsidered, but Im not impressed with that leadership.

Sager said it SO much better than I did. I was part asleep when I posted my reply. The part about making sure they eat, realize the kid may not even know he is hungry and need reminding.

Also, what I tell my son is "That's great that you've done it before. That means it will be real easy to do it again."

Ask him parents if he can take a small dosage of his medicine in the late afternoon to help the evening be better. They will need to talk to their doctor. The doctor may have other suggestions, possibly an additional medication for the evenings to help him settle down and sleep. It's hard for all kids due to the excitement and high activity of camping. Also, talk to the boy about suggestions he might have of ways to settle down. Some ADHD kids do read a lot, maybe some night time reading will help him. Some time without all the external stimulation. Good luck and hang in there.

They were not Boy Scouts at that time. They were not members of the troop, only guests. How would they have felt as Webelos if someone walked in and said "oh, I've done all this before just I wasn't a Cub Scout, so give me my awards"?