belayer_StLouis

S-F is pronounced "S bar F" and is the 5,400 acre scout ranch (with 3 socut camps and 1 Venture base)in the Greater St. Louis Area Council. It has been a patrol cooking camp since it opened in 1966. Camp Lewallen is a dining hall camp in the same council and is 30 miles down the road. Both camps are in the same council as a result of a council merger in 93 or 95.

I hope you meant to say you were going in 2010 to Philmont. If you are going in 2009 and asking these kind of quesions I would urge you to find a troop or crew in the area that has recently gone to Philmont and take the advisors out to dinner because you have asked hours and hours of questions. You need to spend an afternoon or two with them. The questions you asked should have been addressed last summer. There are lots of resources but its almost too late and would take hours of typing/internet time to help you. Get ahold of someone tonight or tomorrow - call your council office about you went last year. You need help now if you haven't already done your travel reservations and already done equipment reviews and come up with your shakedown schedule.

rdcrisco: I have no idea of what kind of outdoor specialty stores there are in your area but these stores offer many opportunities. Outdoor stores, besides REI, offer all kinds of clinics on subjects from GPS, kayaking, to bike repair. I would also contact county parks and recreation departments. Our local county rec depart. offers all kinds of classes taught by hobbyists on everything from fly fishing to bird watching. There are all kinds of groups who love to share their hobbies and are interested in getting others involved. Also contact your state Conservation or Parks Department. The BSA certainly doesn't have the corner on outdoor education and relies heavily on other groups for their expertise.

Gunny, I've seen lots of white gas stove and lantern problems. After all they are mechanical devices that are used by folks who don't use them everyday, don't read instructions, etc. I think I know how to field repair most backpacking stoves (not gas lanterns - haven't figured out a use for them in the outdoors so I have no experience fixing them). When things go wrong with any of them (liquid or gas cannister) they do cause spectacular incidents and you do need to move quickly. Training of adults and supervision by same in a kid program is pretty important. Beaver is wrong about council camping programs; a council can prohibit gas stoves and lanterns if it decides to. National council allows it but a local council could prohibit, I've been on a large council camping committee for a long time and teach at camp school and a local could "exceed" a policy. Local council policy could prohibit the use of rifles at camp if it wanted to, national wouldn't force them to have a rifle shooting program. However, if National says automatic rifles are not to be used the local council can't do that program.

Sorry, some descriptions are in order. I haven't seen a toothed zipper on a tent in 20+ years. Most jackets have tooth zippers, look at one, they are very different than coil zippers. If you look closely you should be able to see that the coil zipper is really a continous coil. They rarely are broken, they may get twisted out of line much like a Slinky that is twisted. You can take a pin and pop it back into line. The slider (yes, the piece that slides back and forth) forces the two opposing coils together. After use, grit and the coil itself will wear the inside of the slider out (the inside of the slider goes out of spec) and it is not tight enough to force the coil together. Repairing the zipper (really replacing the slider) is as simple as taking the old slider off and replacing with the new one. You should also clean the coil zipper - water and toothbrush (another whole subject). Do follow the instructions in the kit because it will explain how to slide off and how to replace the stop so the new slidder does not pop off the end. They come in different sizes (usually 5, 7, 8 or 10mm - the width of the coil when joined) Once you've replaced a slider you'll amaze your camping friends who will come to you forever for free advice. The Eureka Timberline Outfitter tents used to use 10mm stainless steel sliders on 10mm coil zippers. Most good backpacks and day packs use 10mm zippers on the main compartments - look at the big honking zipper, its a #10. Sorry, BWCA is the Boundary Waters Canoe Area. If you walk thru the outfitters in Ely, MN you will see lots of heavy duty gear since they rent it out to lots of canoers of various levels of skill. Hope the advice helps, sorry about assuming about sliders(also a White Castle hamburger) and BWCA. I communicate a lot with scouters on the Philmont discussion list and some shorthand helps save typing. Lots of money is wasted replacing zippers when a very simple and cheap slider replacement will work.

Lots of good tents, stick with 2 man tents. Check out Alps, Kelty, Coleman Exponent tents. Unless you do above tree line backpacking stay away from 4 season tents; they also don't have enough ventilation for the rest of the year(the 10 months of the year when snow isn't blowing). Zippers don't wear out, the slidders do. That's why Eureka makes (or used to) Outfitter tents for Campmor. They have heavy duty stainless steel, oversized sliders instead of the pot metal slidders used by everyone. Lots of the canoe outfitters in the BWCA use them. When a zipper no longer closes the zipper its usually because the slider is worn/grooved and no longer forces the coils together enough to hold the zipper together. When guys come to me to talk about repairing zippers I send them to Campmor and have them buy the zipper repair kit, much cheaper. The kit has simple directions and uses hand tools, sewing machine not needed. Alps has super scout pricing, check them out on the net - Alps Mountaineering in New Haven, Missouri.

Our council has had patrol cooking summer camp since the 60's and yes hot chocolate, teabags and such are the reasons for the coffee pot. What is bear scat coffee? is it the same as cowboy coffee?

rdcrisco: that's a pretty wide open question because there are so many good to great brands of shoes and boots. Today many of the walking, trail type shoes are very capable of keeping your feet comfortable. Some hikers don't use wear boots to hike or backpack in; I don't wear hiking boots and am a serious backpacker. Except having to wear boots in the Army I haven't worn hiking boots since the 60's. I consider Philmont trails and hiking as super highway walking; beautiful and nice but the trails are so great that they aren't as challenging as lots of poor trails in this country. I think some folks buy more shoe/boot than they need; the description you talked about isn't heavy duty walking. I would go to a good shoe department in an outdoor store (REI or Hudson Trails or some such outdoor retailer in your area). I don't think the big box stores can help you fit shoes. Another key to comfortable feet is socks and overlooked by lots of folks. A good shoe person in an outdoor store will make sure you use the right kind of socks. Stay away from cotton; stick to the poly blends, wool blends. Again many good brands - stay away from cotton because they cause your feet to get/stay hot and sweaty. I wear wool socks (various weights) 12 months a year and I live in St. Louis; hot and sticky is the norm in the summer. Spend some time reading articles on the net, would tell you to read "Expert Advice" sections on rei.com. Good luck; your question is kind of liking asking what is the best car.

Scouter760, guess what? Greater St. Louis Area Council just put a note in the council newsletter that they will no longer be selling district patches. I always thought it was a goofy rule about district patches since National Supply made them to sell to the council - huh? Districts seem pretty important to the way the BSA operates, they sell district flags but they don't like district patches; never could figure out the rationale. I don't know why the SE would make a deal about district patches; he certainly has more important things to worry about.

Docrwm, thanks for mentioning the weather training. I sort of stumbled over it one day. Pretty good and really will have more impact on units than a Climb on Safely program would have. Because of my involvment with the climbing program here in St. Louis we developed Storm/Lightning procedures sheets for each program site a year or so ago and shared them with the national camping guys. We didn't do anything original, just used NOAA's stuff but identified where to take shelter in case of lightning. The only thing national puts out that is not in line with NOAA is how far to spread out in case you are caught outdoors in case of lightning. NOAA says spread out 15 ft, BSA says spread out 100 feet - a little tough depending on terrain and number of kids. If you are out with 30 kids on a ropes course or climbing that means you might not be able to see some of the kids or keep them under control and calm - really depends on the terrain. Let's hope the national office gets Climb on Safely on line, more important subjects are already on line.

I teach climbing at Nat. Camping School and you guys are reading the rules correctly. Climb on Safely was designed for units going out and using other climbing programs and facilities just to make sure the leader is a good "buyer of climbing activities". This gives the leader a head's up so they know what to look for. Units are told "yeah, I learned how to rappel and climbing at college, in the service or whatever". When a leader has the Climb on Safely training they should know what to look for and what questions to ask. Some of us are trying to get Climb on Safely training put on line since it is not a course that teaches climbing skills, just skills to be a better consumer of climbing programs for their kids.

All good suggestions about straps and not using bungee cords. Since you and your son are new to backpacking (hope he loves it, best hobby of my life) I thought I should just add: put the trash bag on the INSIDE of the sleeping bag stuff sack. I've seen kids and adults show up with the plastic sack on the outside. Don't laugh you old packers! I started using the heavier grade, white, trash compactor bags instead of the plastic trash sacks. Its easier to see inside the bags at night, I also use one of those big bags on the inside of my top loading external frame pack and then put everything inside. Again easier to see inside a white bag than the inside of a dark colored pack - and accidental discovery that has worked well. Happy Trails!!

It finally dawned on me why the National OA Comm. doesn't come down on Shawnee about its veto rule. The lodge loses a potential member by having the SM doing the veto after the election rather than keeping a scout off the ballot. If the SM kept a scout off the ballot the lodge would potentially have more members. Again, a rather small group out of the 3 scout camps.

To Nolesrule: great question about 50% of kids in a troop attending camp. I don't know the answer but the last annual report published showed that 72% of scouts in the Greater St. Louis Area Council attended camp. Having to be in camp to be elected does get some kids to camp. I would guess that units with less than 50% of their members in camp is pretty small.

I'm sorry about the confusion of number of kids elected in Shawnee. I don't know what the current ratio/election system is. I know that Shawnee follows the national system that determines how many kids are elected. Again, the ratio systems have changed a bunch of times and I don't know the current system. What I was trying to illustrate is that when a SM vetoes a scout he does not get to sub someone else - the unit loses an elected scout.

NeiLUP: I told myself I wouldn't respond anymore to this thread but you posted a nice, civil question and scenario about the veto. Here is how it works in Shawnee. The unit is requested (very strongly thru the camp manual and camp program) to have a serious session on the campsite during the week - an evening campfire to explain to scouts about the purpose of the OA and how the voting process. On Thursday morning, 6:45, at summer camp the election team arrives and explains the purpose of OA and how the voting happens. All eligible scouts in attendance at camp (there are provisions for kids going to NYLT, Philmont, etc) are on the ballot. After the voting all names of the elected are turned in by the election team to the camp office. During the day the SM goes to camp office to fill out citations and make payment. If the SM wants to veto an elected scout he does not fill out the citation for that scout - the SM does not get to substitute the next highest vote getter. Only the names of the elected scouts are on the list at the camp office. Again, this is a rare occurance just as I bet SM's keeping eligible scouts off the ballot is in other lodges. I'm always impressed that the kids usually pick the deserving candidates. Only the SM and the camp office know if an elected scout is not called out because only the SM and the election team do the vote counting - no other members or adults are allowed to be in on the count at the campsite. There are provisions for units going elsewhere for summer camp.

I communicated with the Shawnee Lodge staff advisor yesterday and there is no desire to change the SM veto rule in the lodge. Since this is not a health and safety issue, and a very minor issue, there are other things to occupy my BSA efforts. If the National OA Comm. thinks its important I guess they can take issue.

To Tokala: I agree that paying attention to rules is important and leaders should pay attention and set an example. Having been our council's Ropes Course and Climbing Chair since the early 80's I will tell you that some rules get changed enough to be confusing and often contradictory from one year to the next (I've seen National standards come and go and be all over the map). Voting rules have changed a bunch of times since my induction. As I said earlier I don't know the history of the rule about SM's and veto power but I might wager a small bet that Shawnee is following a rule that used to be a National rule - remember Shawnee has had the same veto procedure since at least 1961. Gotta think some procedural rules just aren't a big deal. Some rules are followed with greater enthusiam in different lodges and councils, example: wear full uniform when wearing OA sash. Shawnee is absolutely tough on this; kids can't get their Ordeal sash placed over their shoulder unless wearing a full uniform - Allowat Sakima will hand it to them if not in uniform. At National OA events the Shawnee kids go crazy seeing guys from other lodges wearing t-shirts and sashes. They think it shows disrespect to the OA if not wearing the full uniform. I will however try to find out the history of the veto rule at the next Camping Comm. meeting of the council; could be a real research problem. I am one of the most senior members of the comm. but I will explore with our Director of Camping - the guy who gets paid to deal with this stuff.

To SWScouter: Glad you like the Kelty Super Tioga. If memory is correct (suspect statement)the 50th Anniv. version of that pack won a Backpacker mag. design award. Use of the long pocket: I put tent poles/pegs (its original purpose) and odd stuff in that pocket. Things like mini shovel, folding saw, length of para cord. I will admit that it isn't the most used pocket but it seems to be a good catch-all for tool like thingss for me. Sometimes, depending on the hike and who I'm with it becomes the trash can for the pieces of trash that we find on the trail. Oh yes, sometimes I keep the toilet paper and hand cleaner in that pocket (in zip lock of course). I will admit that you have some memory about who has expressed opinions about various pieces of equipment.

Scouter760. Lucky you, doing the Ordeal with your son. Sounds like you are going to S bar F this weekend. Let's hope the weather holds cool and not rainy. As a camp staff member I got to tap out my father - way cool. As a dad I got to catch my son when he was called out. Got my money's worth from the OA; not to mention all the great things I got do as a chapter and lodge officer. The OA, done right, can be a good growth program for the older scout.

To ASM915 and others about Shawnee and the post election veto issue: I truely can't give the history of when the lodge started this procedure. It could very well have been the process recommended by national way back then and changed several times. National OA leadership must not be too worried about it; kids from Shawnee have been elected as region and section chiefs. The lodge hosts it fair share of section conclaves and national training events so this procedure must not be an anethma to the powers-that-be. Lots of lodges have different procedures; Shawnee has not had a dues system since 1960. The lodge is well off and actually gives $ to Friends of Scouting. There is no sugar daddy; fee for attendance at lodge events is high enough to pay for events and annual operating funds. Members must send in a registration card annually to be on the rolls (and be BSA registered of course). I noticed during a reading last night of national OA site that lodges are discouraged from doing elections at summer camp; Shawnee does it elections at summer camp and has about 72% or so camp attendance by scouts . The lodge is strong and a resource to the camping program and the council. As I read other council websites I always notice that many lodges have vacant leadership postions - not a problem in Shawnee. Kids being vetoed is an extremely small issue, it just is not a deal that is talked about. Having participated in a 100 or so elections as a youth leader I was always impressed by the process and how well it is done. As an adult watching the process I have been even happier; most kids take the election seriously and the integrity of elections is not an issue that ever is discussed. Again I would suggest that the national OA leadership probably doesn't think this is a big deal and are happy to have the very large and strong Shawnee Lodge in the OA fold rather than another local camping honor society that is not an OA lodge.

To ASM915 and others about Shawnee and the post election veto issue: I truely can't give the history of when the lodge started this procedure. It could very well have been the process recommended by national way back then and changed several times. National OA leadership must not be too worried about it; kids from Shawnee have been elected as region and section chiefs. The lodge hosts it fair share of section conclaves and national training events so this procedure must not be an anethma to the powers-that-be. Lots of lodges have different procedures; Shawnee has not had a dues system since 1960. The lodge is well off and actually gives $ to Friends of Scouting. There is no sugar daddy; fee for attendance at lodge events is high enough to pay for events and annual operating funds. Members must send in a registration card annually to be on the rolls (and be BSA registered of course). I noticed during a reading last night of national OA site that lodges are discouraged from doing elections at summer camp; Shawnee does it elections at summer camp and has about 72% or so camp attendance by scouts . The lodge is strong and a resource to the camping program and the council. As I read other council websites I always notice that many lodges have vacant leadership postions - not a problem in Shawnee. Kids being vetoed is an extremely small issue, it just is not a deal that is talked about. Having participated in a 100 or so elections as a youth leader I was always impressed by the process and how well it is done. As an adult watching the process I have been even happier; most kids take the election seriously and the integrity of elections is not an issue that ever is discussed. Again I would suggest that the national OA leadership probably doesn't think this is a big deal and are happy to have the very large and strong Shawnee Lodge in the OA fold rather than another local camping honor society that is not an OA lodge.

Wimachtendienk Wingolauchsik Witahemui Is Lenni Lenape (Delaware tribe) for Brotherhood of Cheerful Service. It most certainly is not a secret

If you guys want to discuss politics go some place else. Enough with the political diatribes - whichever side you are on.

Sorry for mulitiple entries, I swear I only hit submit once.