belayer_StLouis

S-F is pronounced "S bar F" and is the 5,400 acre scout ranch (with 3 socut camps and 1 Venture base)in the Greater St. Louis Area Council. It has been a patrol cooking camp since it opened in 1966. Camp Lewallen is a dining hall camp in the same council and is 30 miles down the road. Both camps are in the same council as a result of a council merger in 93 or 95.

I hope you meant to say you were going in 2010 to Philmont. If you are going in 2009 and asking these kind of quesions I would urge you to find a troop or crew in the area that has recently gone to Philmont and take the advisors out to dinner because you have asked hours and hours of questions. You need to spend an afternoon or two with them. The questions you asked should have been addressed last summer. There are lots of resources but its almost too late and would take hours of typing/internet time to help you. Get ahold of someone tonight or tomorrow - call your council office about you wen

rdcrisco: I have no idea of what kind of outdoor specialty stores there are in your area but these stores offer many opportunities. Outdoor stores, besides REI, offer all kinds of clinics on subjects from GPS, kayaking, to bike repair. I would also contact county parks and recreation departments. Our local county rec depart. offers all kinds of classes taught by hobbyists on everything from fly fishing to bird watching. There are all kinds of groups who love to share their hobbies and are interested in getting others involved. Also contact your state Conservation or Parks Department. The BSA c

Gunny, I've seen lots of white gas stove and lantern problems. After all they are mechanical devices that are used by folks who don't use them everyday, don't read instructions, etc. I think I know how to field repair most backpacking stoves (not gas lanterns - haven't figured out a use for them in the outdoors so I have no experience fixing them). When things go wrong with any of them (liquid or gas cannister) they do cause spectacular incidents and you do need to move quickly. Training of adults and supervision by same in a kid program is pretty important. Beaver is wrong about council campi

Sorry, some descriptions are in order. I haven't seen a toothed zipper on a tent in 20+ years. Most jackets have tooth zippers, look at one, they are very different than coil zippers. If you look closely you should be able to see that the coil zipper is really a continous coil. They rarely are broken, they may get twisted out of line much like a Slinky that is twisted. You can take a pin and pop it back into line. The slider (yes, the piece that slides back and forth) forces the two opposing coils together. After use, grit and the coil itself will wear the inside of the slider out (the inside

Lots of good tents, stick with 2 man tents. Check out Alps, Kelty, Coleman Exponent tents. Unless you do above tree line backpacking stay away from 4 season tents; they also don't have enough ventilation for the rest of the year(the 10 months of the year when snow isn't blowing). Zippers don't wear out, the slidders do. That's why Eureka makes (or used to) Outfitter tents for Campmor. They have heavy duty stainless steel, oversized sliders instead of the pot metal slidders used by everyone. Lots of the canoe outfitters in the BWCA use them. When a zipper no longer closes the zipper its usuall

Our council has had patrol cooking summer camp since the 60's and yes hot chocolate, teabags and such are the reasons for the coffee pot. What is bear scat coffee? is it the same as cowboy coffee?

rdcrisco: that's a pretty wide open question because there are so many good to great brands of shoes and boots. Today many of the walking, trail type shoes are very capable of keeping your feet comfortable. Some hikers don't use wear boots to hike or backpack in; I don't wear hiking boots and am a serious backpacker. Except having to wear boots in the Army I haven't worn hiking boots since the 60's. I consider Philmont trails and hiking as super highway walking; beautiful and nice but the trails are so great that they aren't as challenging as lots of poor trails in this country. I think some f

Scouter760, guess what? Greater St. Louis Area Council just put a note in the council newsletter that they will no longer be selling district patches. I always thought it was a goofy rule about district patches since National Supply made them to sell to the council - huh? Districts seem pretty important to the way the BSA operates, they sell district flags but they don't like district patches; never could figure out the rationale. I don't know why the SE would make a deal about district patches; he certainly has more important things to worry about.

Docrwm, thanks for mentioning the weather training. I sort of stumbled over it one day. Pretty good and really will have more impact on units than a Climb on Safely program would have. Because of my involvment with the climbing program here in St. Louis we developed Storm/Lightning procedures sheets for each program site a year or so ago and shared them with the national camping guys. We didn't do anything original, just used NOAA's stuff but identified where to take shelter in case of lightning. The only thing national puts out that is not in line with NOAA is how far to spread out in case yo

I teach climbing at Nat. Camping School and you guys are reading the rules correctly. Climb on Safely was designed for units going out and using other climbing programs and facilities just to make sure the leader is a good "buyer of climbing activities". This gives the leader a head's up so they know what to look for. Units are told "yeah, I learned how to rappel and climbing at college, in the service or whatever". When a leader has the Climb on Safely training they should know what to look for and what questions to ask. Some of us are trying to get Climb on Safely training put on line since

All good suggestions about straps and not using bungee cords. Since you and your son are new to backpacking (hope he loves it, best hobby of my life) I thought I should just add: put the trash bag on the INSIDE of the sleeping bag stuff sack. I've seen kids and adults show up with the plastic sack on the outside. Don't laugh you old packers! I started using the heavier grade, white, trash compactor bags instead of the plastic trash sacks. Its easier to see inside the bags at night, I also use one of those big bags on the inside of my top loading external frame pack and then put everything insi

It finally dawned on me why the National OA Comm. doesn't come down on Shawnee about its veto rule. The lodge loses a potential member by having the SM doing the veto after the election rather than keeping a scout off the ballot. If the SM kept a scout off the ballot the lodge would potentially have more members. Again, a rather small group out of the 3 scout camps.

To Nolesrule: great question about 50% of kids in a troop attending camp. I don't know the answer but the last annual report published showed that 72% of scouts in the Greater St. Louis Area Council attended camp. Having to be in camp to be elected does get some kids to camp. I would guess that units with less than 50% of their members in camp is pretty small.

I'm sorry about the confusion of number of kids elected in Shawnee. I don't know what the current ratio/election system is. I know that Shawnee follows the national system that determines how many kids are elected. Again, the ratio systems have changed a bunch of times and I don't know the current system. What I was trying to illustrate is that when a SM vetoes a scout he does not get to sub someone else - the unit loses an elected scout.

NeiLUP: I told myself I wouldn't respond anymore to this thread but you posted a nice, civil question and scenario about the veto. Here is how it works in Shawnee. The unit is requested (very strongly thru the camp manual and camp program) to have a serious session on the campsite during the week - an evening campfire to explain to scouts about the purpose of the OA and how the voting process. On Thursday morning, 6:45, at summer camp the election team arrives and explains the purpose of OA and how the voting happens. All eligible scouts in attendance at camp (there are provisions for kids goi

I communicated with the Shawnee Lodge staff advisor yesterday and there is no desire to change the SM veto rule in the lodge. Since this is not a health and safety issue, and a very minor issue, there are other things to occupy my BSA efforts. If the National OA Comm. thinks its important I guess they can take issue.

To Tokala: I agree that paying attention to rules is important and leaders should pay attention and set an example. Having been our council's Ropes Course and Climbing Chair since the early 80's I will tell you that some rules get changed enough to be confusing and often contradictory from one year to the next (I've seen National standards come and go and be all over the map). Voting rules have changed a bunch of times since my induction. As I said earlier I don't know the history of the rule about SM's and veto power but I might wager a small bet that Shawnee is following a rule that used to

To SWScouter: Glad you like the Kelty Super Tioga. If memory is correct (suspect statement)the 50th Anniv. version of that pack won a Backpacker mag. design award. Use of the long pocket: I put tent poles/pegs (its original purpose) and odd stuff in that pocket. Things like mini shovel, folding saw, length of para cord. I will admit that it isn't the most used pocket but it seems to be a good catch-all for tool like thingss for me. Sometimes, depending on the hike and who I'm with it becomes the trash can for the pieces of trash that we find on the trail. Oh yes, sometimes I keep the toilet pa

Scouter760. Lucky you, doing the Ordeal with your son. Sounds like you are going to S bar F this weekend. Let's hope the weather holds cool and not rainy. As a camp staff member I got to tap out my father - way cool. As a dad I got to catch my son when he was called out. Got my money's worth from the OA; not to mention all the great things I got do as a chapter and lodge officer. The OA, done right, can be a good growth program for the older scout.

To ASM915 and others about Shawnee and the post election veto issue: I truely can't give the history of when the lodge started this procedure. It could very well have been the process recommended by national way back then and changed several times. National OA leadership must not be too worried about it; kids from Shawnee have been elected as region and section chiefs. The lodge hosts it fair share of section conclaves and national training events so this procedure must not be an anethma to the powers-that-be. Lots of lodges have different procedures; Shawnee has not had a dues system since 19

To ASM915 and others about Shawnee and the post election veto issue: I truely can't give the history of when the lodge started this procedure. It could very well have been the process recommended by national way back then and changed several times. National OA leadership must not be too worried about it; kids from Shawnee have been elected as region and section chiefs. The lodge hosts it fair share of section conclaves and national training events so this procedure must not be an anethma to the powers-that-be. Lots of lodges have different procedures; Shawnee has not had a dues system since 19

Wimachtendienk Wingolauchsik Witahemui Is Lenni Lenape (Delaware tribe) for Brotherhood of Cheerful Service. It most certainly is not a secret

If you guys want to discuss politics go some place else. Enough with the political diatribes - whichever side you are on.

Sorry for mulitiple entries, I swear I only hit submit once.