RangerT

Not a sheepshank more like a Gordian Knot that has no solution and just causes confusion.

Still with all its warts this forum is a whole lot better than most of the others I have seen out there and sometimes you even get some good advice.

Hey all,

Have you thought about getting a custom patch done celebrating the event. Places like The Patch Place and others are very reasonably priced. Make something positive out of a negative, what they did to achieve the award is what is important, not the piece of cloth.

Celebrate the Accomplishment!

emb21

They said the same thing about the military academies, women in combat, women in the space program, etc., etc. The point is all things and organizations change over time in order to stay relevant to the current culture, the BSA is no exception, neither is the OA. Now, I am not a proponent to making the OA or BSA coed but I would not oppose it either. Even with all your stats you keep quoting the point is among 1st world countries the BSA is still in the minority with its policy and like it or not it will probably change to mirror our society.

John, I would not be too sure about your statement,"the OA won't be open to young women anytime soon", the doors have started to crack open with female advisors, etc. and it is just a matter of time (short time). The reason I say this is because most OA chapters are suffering from severe membership loss, many struggling to stay alive. I attended the last NOAC and had long discussions with fellow advisors who concur that OA is in trouble and what can be done about it. Many of them were open to the idea of elections in Venturing crews open to ALL members male and female. This would obviously mean a new direction for the organization, but as the older adult opponents age out of scouting it could become a reality for better or worse.

emb21, while Scott's figures may be a little off he is essentially correct, most of the scouting organizations in Western and Eastern Europe, South America, Asia are indeed coed and fully integrated. My friend just back froom the WSJ said he was surprised by the number of female participants.

Personally I think the BSA will evolve over the next 20 years and the results may surprise us all.

I think that Eamonn gave you some sage advice to follow. I would only add that this program is for the boys and they can detect trouble among the adults. Six months may not seem to be a long time but if your boy has a bad experience in cubs he will be turned off to scouting forever. So if you and the Cubmaster can not come to an agreement then you owe it to your boy to find a new pack and let him enjoy his final year in cubs, don't expose him to a 6 month battle between adults who can't act like adults.

This kind of problem is all too common nowadays and one main reason we keep losing kids and have trouble recruiting new adult leaders.

Don't feel too bad Eamonn, two ships in my council called it quits this summer as well, both have been around for more than ten years. This has resulted in the end of sea scouting in our council with no new prospects in the forseeable future. The reasons the skippers gave were a lack of new members and the aging out of most of the others, expenses exceeding all expectations and a lack of financial support from former contributors, another reason "the crew got tired and bored with playing sailor and the long cruises" the other skipper stated.

I think most young people today really don't want to work very hard and yet want instant results and gratification from the minimal efforts they do put in which mirrors our current youth culture in todays society.

Long Haul

To answer your question 1) HE LIED 2)He is in denial about his own sexuality 3) He committed illegal acts with an undercover cop, and he has done the same thing in the past 4) Then he lied again about his actions, even his fellow GOP senators are now calling for his resignation. So, don't fall on your sword for this guy , he is not worth it.

TOUCHE! John, lol.

Or better yet "female venturers". Or in my crew they like to say, "female (do all the work) venturers".

Just kidding emb021.

Speaking about problems the main one I see is that in Boy Scout troops the average age for a SM is 40-60 something, very few SMs or even ASM's are 20 - 30 something, at least in my council. When I turned 50 this year I decided it was time for me to hand on my crew to two young adults both in their late twenties. It was not because I couldn't keep up anymore, quite the opposite in fact, but the new leaders are now getting established and doing great, and so is the crew. They still come to the old man for advice and the teens still love to see me go on trips with them, but now I can pick and choose what I do. This means I am not stepping on the new leaders feet either, allowing them to shape the crew to their strengths, and even though some of us hate to admit it, sometimes some change is good.

As the COR/CC I can still be a lot of help to the advisors and the crew. If we don't encourage (aka push/force) these younger men and women to take leadership roles because we old duffers won't give up control then the troop or crew will suffer. Too many troops I have seen are one man shows, even as a SM and as an Advisor I always had a great group of assistants, young and old, scouting is not a one man show, most of the units that fail this is one of the main reasons why. Poor leadership leads to poor program and is a guaranteed path to failure.(This message has been edited by RangerT)

I decided to bring this up because I recently turned over the reins as advisor of a crew after five very sucessful years building a solid program and watching phenomenal growth in membership, starting with 10 and currently 50 active members for the past three years. Our next recruitment bash this month we have 20 more potential members. This is a coed crew with excellent teen officers our activities follow the memberships top interests each year, including some outdoor skills and treks.

Basically we follow the Venturing Leaders Manual and it seems to work. I love the program and it seems to be thriving in our council, we are the largest crew (Brag) so are we an exception or are there other crews out there with similiar successes? We do not run our crew like a troop which is not according to Venturing guidelines. I know Eamonn's feelings about the program, but I have to believe there are other successful crews out there and I would love to hear your stories. I am now the CC/COR for the crew, but I already miss the teens, and to paraphrase John-in-KY, " I love this Venturing stuff." In your stories let me know what you think is the real secret to your crews success.

A side note, did you notice all the American Venturers at the 21st World Jamboree, male and female, I thought that was fantastic considering how many other countries scouting programs are coed. I can hear a few of you groaning out there already, lol.

(This message has been edited by RangerT)

Kudu

I applaud your sentiment although many of todays teens may not agree. One of the last treks I took my crew on was to a beautiful wilderness area for a week, trees, a pristine lake loaded with fish, and a lot of wildlife. The one rule was no electronic devices allowed, even cell phones were only for emergencies and were kept locked up, this was to give them the feeling of being at one with nature with no technology. Well the first day and night were absolute misery most of the teens, a coed group, wanted to go home, many were afraid they would not survive. The next morning I taught them how to create a fishing pole and tackle from the objects around them, some cooked biscuits, etc on an open fire. Sitting together that first breakfast some of them talked about how much fun catching the fish was,one kid only had a ball of string, a safety pin and some beef jerky, he caught four fish. By the third day not one of my venturers asked about their cell phone and had immersed themselves totally in the experience. By the end of the week, NOT ONE of them wanted to go home, even after taking a cold shower with lake water. They still talk about that trip almost a year later. Since then I have relinquished my postion as advisor, and am now the CC and COR, but the teens still want me to lead another trip, and so do the the advisors of the crew, go figure.

As a park ranger for the last 22 years I know the beauty,joys, and dangers of the outdoors, however motivating teens and some adults to see those same joys is a daunting task to say the least. As I stated in another thread that I see scouting evolving to a program where the outdoors will be de-emphasized or secondary because of the over protectiveness of well meaning parents on their children and the technocentric nature of our society. Kids today are growing up with fears that are unfounded as well as a complete lack of adventure about the world around them, and that in my opinion is tragic. Wilderness areas are being swallowed up for development at an alarming rate, pretty soon we will run out of these special places to take our youth and then what will happen to scouting? I hope I never see that day during my lifetime. We owe the youth so much more.

I think that scouting will continue and evolve into something different than us old timers knew as youth. As our culture continues to change into a more global community it will reshape scouting into what is relevant to the youth of today and tommorrow. The reality is that while there will always be a place for outdoor skills it will become much less emphasized in the future because thats probably not what will attract youth 10, 20, 50 or 100 years from now. Instead of crying the blues about losing the "good old days" of scouting, all of us over 50, I am very interested to see what scouting evolves into because like it or not change is a natual part of life, without it we would stagnate as a people. Many parents I have talked with, in their 20's- 30's, have told me scouting was something their dads did as kids and that it isn't relevant to todays culture. The fact that scouting has survived for 100 years is something to be quite proud of, but if it is to survive another 100 change is inevitable, and instead of complaining about it we should be actively involved in the shaping of scouting for the future.

"We have nothing to fear but fear itself.", truer words have never been spoken and scouting will survive, it may be very different than what we know today but it will survive.

I agree with "E", a district event is exactly that, it is not and never should be the responsibility of a single unit. It sounds to me like your district committee is malfunctioning, to say the least, and its up to all the scoutleaders at roundtable to demand acountability from your district leaders and your DE. It sickens me to see boys suffer because the adult scouters are acting so petty. Time for some reshuffling of district positions. What a bunch of petty bull c--p if you ask me, we are there to serve the youth not our own self interests, and we wonder why we keep losing more youth every year, it seems perfectly clear to me.

I do not feel that a Totin Chit card is really an advancement and should be awarded when the scout finishes the class. THe SM and parents should of handled this issue before the boy even went to camp, if the boy was mentally deficent or dangerous he should have not been allowed to go even with parental supervision, bottom line. The trading post is not at fault, most never even ask for the Totin Chit, besides if this kid was going to get into trouble I am sure there would be a variety of things he could have gotten his hands on in camp to use as a weapon. If there is indeed any blame to give then it lies solely with the SM and the parents in the preplanning of this trip, if the boy was indeed potentially dangerous he never should have been allowed to go in the first place.(This message has been edited by RangerT)

Beavah

I agree with ya 100%, those on line trainings are close to worthless. I also have to say most of the current Boy Scout leader training leaves a lot to be desired, including the current WB course. The other problem is that councils ,especially mine, have real trouble finding really qualified people to train others in outdoor skills and survival. Inferior teachers with inferior skills leads to unskilled leaders and deadly accidents. Maybe every council should have to contract with a professional outdoor training group to do training in wilderness skills. At a recent University of Scouting workshop on wilderness medicine the instructor was a EMT with a local fire department who had no experience in the outdoors,in fact he even joked about how he hated camping. Those are the kind of trainings that do not prepare for emergencies and lead to deaths in a troop. I asked the SE why this guy was even teaching this course, his answer, "He was the best we could get." It is time to raise the bar on all adult BSA training or we will face many more of these problems, deaths and fires, etc. in the future.

OGE, maybe we ought to let JK Rowling write and design the next BSA recruitment video and literature, maybe even the next handbook. She couldn't do any worse than most of the recent attempts by national. Imagine Harry Potter in a Boy Scout uniform with his wand at the ready. JK has captured the minds and imagination of our youth worldwide, maybe its time for the BSA to think outside the box, eh. Just a thought.

Eamonn, my god man you are only 50 and you are already writing your epitaph? This is the time in your life to start living your life with your spouse, going to all those places you always talked about and enjoy the good life. Scouting like all your other experiences now become happy memories to look back on. Life keeps on going and so must we. I just turned 50 and next month two of my early crew members will be taking over as advisors while I become the CC/COR for the crew. Part of me is dreading it and another part rejoicing in the fact that there will be no more long backpacking treks or whitewater trips worrying about the youth and whether or not I will make those last ten miles, and yet I know I will miss them too.

Now is the time for me and the wife to live our dreams, our last boy is almost finished with college and can take care of himself just fine. The crew gave me the unofficial title of Advisor Emeritus with an embroidered cap and jacket and told me that they hoped I would still go on a few trips a year with them. If that wasn't enough to bring a tear to my eye our crew photographer made a montage of crew photos from the last five years and created this huge burlwood framed piece of art. Like I have said before scouters never really leave scouting do we. Eamonn I hope your spouse and you are doing well. YIS

While I might agree that the current BSA program might be softer than the program of old I do not feel its realistic to put all the blame on National. When most of us were kids we used to love going on hikes and camp out, go exploring, etc. This is not true of most kids today and the reasons why are diverse. First of all in most of the country kids don't play outdoors or go off exploring very much anymore for parental fear of the child being kidnapped or worse. Our kids of today grow up in an environment of fear, this is a societal problem that has been erroding our way of life for at least two decades now, and it seems to be getting worse.

Secondly, just because the BSA program has changed emphasis doesn't mean the program in your troop has to do the same. In my crew years ago the teens really didn't want to go camping, or hiking, why, because they had never been shown those type of skills growing up, it was a fear factor. As an avid outdoorsman myself I showed them just how easy it was to survive in the wild, with the proper skills and training, starting out small and building on those skills the fear gradually left them and now most of them look forward to going into the outdoors. I make sure that I challenge them but never overwhelm them. With these positive experiences their confidence has greatly improved, even their parents are amazed.

So if scouting has gotten softer its because the leaders have gotten softer and have lost the true vision of scouting, not only developing good and helpful citizens but teaching them the skills to take care of themselves and others in the wild, appreciating the beauty of nature, and learning to be good stewards of our natural resources in order to protect them for future generations.

As a former scoutmaster for many years and now a crew advisor for the past five I kind of agree with Beavah about Venturing standing alone. However, I have had a few youth who have dropped out of a troop, for a myriad of reasons, and wanted to finish their Eagle in the crew, so I make sure they really are committed to getting that Eagle before saying okay. As far as BOR's are concerned Beav, when I was a SM we always had the SPL and ASPL sit in on them, and now in the crew the President and one or two other officers not only sit in but are allowed to ask one question, if they desire. I feel this is more in line with the nature of the Venturing program since these officers regularly conduct the BOR's for the Venturing advancements. The SE and DE in my council have no objections to this procedure either. Sometimes you have to think outside the box.

This is what galls me about BSA policies, there are precise guidelines for a myriad of minutia type issues yet when it comes to BOR procedures it seems to be whatever the custom in the district is okay. And then we wonder why the boys get fed up and quit. While I agree there should be some written record kept by the boy we all know thats not always the case. So instead we can take a signed statement from the SM or Advisor giving as much detail as possible or we can be gestapo police and deny the advancement, which is in the best interest of the boy?

If the boys handbook becomes lost or destroyed every BOR should have alternatives allowable to every BOR, this should be a National BSA policy, not a local one. I have sat on some BOR's where certain individuals have gone way beyond their authority in their demands, and when they were called on it became extremely hostile. What kind of example were these adult scouters demonstrating to the youth? If we ever want to understand why our numbers keep dropping look at the way the program is being administered in your district by the adults. There are reasons certain districts are thriving while most others are struggling keeping their heads above the water, and these reasons involve the adult leadership, not the youth.

Gentlemen

Refer to the Venturing handbook pgs 7-8 "If a Venturer finds themselves in uniform at an occasion where a salute is required they should use the full hand salute."

Definition of a uniform, "the spruce green shirt and grey pants is the recommended uniform, however, the uniform, if any, is the choice of the crew."

My reading is that any crew uniform identifying the wearer as a member of a Venturing crew makes them eligible to use the Venturing salute, and my friend at the Venturing division in Irving concurs. I hope that settles things. YIS.

scoutleader hit this problem in one, LDS scouting is an animal all unto itself. LDS Scoutmasters can't resign and can't recruit outside their own ward. Your only option is to go to your stake leader and explain your situation. With a troop of 3-4 boys the interest levels will drop and soon they will all disappear. Not to be critical but most of the LDS units I have come across in my time are little better than paper units. Most of the leaders are on a one year appointment and never go to training. If scouting was not a mandated activity by the LDS church it would never survive, as it is it barely hangs on by the skin of its teeth. My suggestion is if the leadership will not help you ask to be reassigned, if they refuse find a non LDS troop your group could do some joint activities with. Best of luck.(This message has been edited by RangerT)

lee

Old Grey speaks words of wisdom, you can earn both awards. Ranger is considered an expert award as is the Quest, Trust, and Quartermaster. As an advisor for over 5 years now I can tell you that both awards gives you special gifts that would be useful to any troop or crew. Organizational and leadership skills that you will learn with the silver will be invaluable to you for your entire life, and the outdoor skills you learn with the Ranger will be a great asset to any scouting program as well as for certain career fields you might be interested in. I have had ten teens 5 boys and 5 girls earn both of these awards, they worked their butts off but they told me after the fact that it was really worth it. Two of them went to college majored in conservation/ recreation and started their own wilderness rafting business. They are my right hand associate advisors and have shown an interest in becoming the crew advisor and then my old bones can rest as the COR and Committee Chair. Its a great feeling when the students grow up and surpass the master, lol. SO GO FOR IT LEE!

Eamonn

I feel for you and understand your doubts, but there comes a time in everyones life when they know its time to step down. Your wife and son should be your only priorities right now, and with your wife so ill she has got to be number one. You have given much more than most others have to scouting, and it is not your responsibility to keep the ship going, that is up to your crew. You have a lifetime of scouting memories to last you, and now as someone once said,"it's time for the young bucks to keep things running."

With this crew of mine I know this will be my last hurrah after over 20 years in scouting. Two of my early crew members have graduated from college, married, and have set up a business in town, both of them are natural leaders and I am hoping they will want to take the reins when they feel ready. Then I can step down knowing I am leaving the crew in great hands. I will have all my pictures, movies, memory books to cherish forever. I will never fool myself into believing I am indispensable. I may have started and nurtured this crew into the largest in the council, but it doesn't belong to me.

Scouting has and is changing more every year, but it continues and so will your ship if your youth really want it. So Eamonn my friend don't be afraid of becoming a member of the rocking chair patrol, we all will be there someday and I am not too far behind you. So do what you need to do and remember we never ever really leave scouting. My prayers go out to your wife and yourself.

YIS

AAHH Eamonn,

Sounds to me like you are letting that old Catholic guilt get the better of you. You did all you were supposed to do. I am curious though, did you have some earlier feelings/doubts about this boy before this and never followed up? Is that where your guilt is coming from?

No one is perfect, we do the best we can. You have brought this boys reign of terror to an end and THAT is the important part.