perdidochas

As the earlier posters noted, most of the Bear advancement is stuff that, at least IMHO, most of us are doing with our kids anyway. The God and Family groups are pretty much do at home, anyway. As I told my Bears (and parents) last year when I was Bear Den leader--Go through the book, and see what you've already done, just in passing. You might be pleasantly surprised at how far he's gotten.

We use Packmaster. It's great, but the biggest drawback is initial data entry.

I think it's a non-issue. I would imagine I could have found similar cargo pants BEFORE the centennial uniform.

It is inherently racist to "reinvent Scouting" to target Hispanic youth. The last time white BSA millionaires reinvented Scouting (in 1972) so as to dumb it down to what they perceived to be the minority level, the BSA went into a sharp decline from which the article admits the BSA has never recovered:

The group remains the largest youth organization in the United States, with 2.8 million children, nearly all of them boys. But that is about half of its peak membership, which was reached in 1972.

The Baby-Boomer's parents did not suddenly stop reproducing in 1961 so as to cause the sharp decline in 1972 as indoor modernists insist.

Well, according to the CDC (http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/statab/t001x01.pdf), we haven't had as many births in any year since 1961 as we did then.  1961 had 4,268,000 births.  Since then, we haven't reached that level. 

Demographics is one reason for the lower number of Boy Scouts today, but undoubtedly it's not the only reason.

In 1962, we

Tour permit = council approval. As for the rest, a polar plunge is not a "swim". I'm not passing judgement on whether it should or should not be done as a Scouting unit. What gets me is that this is far more "risky" than many of the forbidden activities.

I don't agree.  Polar bear swimming under such controlled conditions isn't dangerous to anybody who doesn't have a heart condition.  It's not nearly as dangerous as climbing or whitewater rafting. 

For the most part, our meal planning for Cub Scouts is either each family brings food for themselves, or we plan a kid-friendly den or pack meal--i.e. usually hot dogs/chili/and the fixings.

I personally think that the Tiger program added in the early 80s is the single biggest contributor to the loss of boys in the cub program today.

Why?

Trevorum wrote: Bob, then stop telling people they have to believe in YOUR "God" in order to be Scouts. Many scouts and Scouters do not beleve in ANY ASPECT your mythology, including Buddhists, Hindus, Wiccans, and UU's, and we are just as good citizens as Christians, Jews, and Muslims, despite what you think and despite how you want to interpret the DRP. How about respecting OUR beliefs for a change.

I think you are reading things into what Bob wrote.  His main point was that Scouts have a duty to their God, whatever or whoever that might be. 

Trevorum wrote:

Yeah, but if we admit we do not believe that God is the "ruling and leading power in the universe", some Judeo-Christian supremecist will tell us we do not qualify to be Scouts.

Please where is that stated or implied by anyone on this thread?

There is no necessity to be any particular faith to be a Boy Scout. However, there is a requirement to recognize that there is a God (or gods) and that Scouts have obligations to God (or their gods).

While a museum would be a good first start in learning the signs, I think this needs to be done in the wild. I live in suburbs, and I think I could do this one in a day if required.

Here are what I would consider evidence of animals:

1) Foot/paw/claw prints

2) evidence of nests (squirrel or bird)

3) Actual animals (should be able to spot at least 3 or 4 different birds easily)

4) Dung

Plants should be very easy. Just get a fieldguide and get to work.

My son is involved in martial arts and one of his favorite parts is sparring which is done under supervision and with appropriate safety gear. I think we should bring back boxing gloves, head gear and a ring and let the combatants have at for a few rounds. Such behavior seems to be hard wired into the male genetic code.

Of course it is. Our ancestors would never have survived without those abilities and the penchant for occasional fights. Watch any animal baby. Most animal play consists of fighting other animals.

ASM's requirements are a little extreme. However, I do think that a demotion from SPL is appropriate. In addition, I think some volunteer work in the black community would be appropriate--maybe a few hours with the Boys/Girls club somewhere in a minority section of town. Regardless, I think Buffalo Skipper is on the right track about treating this seriously. For Scouts to survive, we can't have a racist reputation. I'd rather kick out the racists than lose the minorities.

I would start out by talking to the Tiger Cubs myself. I think this is a good time for a Den Leader's minute about giving Goodwill.

Shouldn't be too much of a problem to complete Bobcat/Tiger or Bobcat/Wolf between January and June (unless a lot of the kids are in baseball, also). When I was a Tiger Denleader, we finished the Bobcat/Tiger requirements between the middle of August and February, with a 3 week break for Christmas.

When was the last time anyone really needed to whip the end of a rope?

From my understanding, some of the latest high tech ropes (i.e. Spectra and  dyneema) char rather than melt, so their ends need to be whipped. 

Obviously, there is some reason that most of the scouts are late. It's either that they get no value added by showing up on time, or possibly, you're meeting too early. I would bring it up at a troop meeting, and determine what the problem is.

And the problem with the technology is that it sometimes does too much work to be educational- such as the calculator and the word-processor. I have met parents who have argued to me very passionately that hand-writing (print or cursive) is dead and that they are not concerned wit their children learning it. I have met parents who think that calculators are a skill to be learned- along with computers.

I'm sure the ancients said the same about reading and writing.  It ruins the memory and takes it's place......  Until the advent of the SAT writing exam,  I wasn't concerned about handwriting.  In real life, about the only thing I write is notes to myself.  Anything I expect to communicate with someone else I type.  Calculators are a skill to be learned.  How to use them is not an automatic thing. My wife was a math teacher. She taught students who couldn't work a calculator correctly. 

If the technology does not elevate- but only makes things easier- then I say GO-Luddite when you are scouting!!!

So what era do you wish to stop at? 

The same goes with compass and star navigation versus GPS.

Both should be learned for when the GPS breaks, but practically speaking, it is silly not to use GPS, if available. 

When we said we witnessed the entire incident, the parents said they believed their son 100% and accused us of bullying him! It was surreal.

That kind of experience is common in the schools.  I was once friends with the administrative secretary of school transportation. She said they would catch kids fighting on video, bring their parents in, and the parents would still say their kids weren't involved in the fight. 

A good honest portrayal of the Patrol Method in action- even in documentary form could be interesting and informative.

 It might even inspire a whole new generation of Lems to take their place in the ranks of scouters.

It would make for a good reality series for one of the cable channels.  A year in the life of a Boy Scout troop, which could culminate in either Philmont, Boundary waters, or SeaBase.

Is Lem dead? You mean the guy who volunteered to be Scoutmaster to impress the girl?

There are still tons of guys like that. What you need are single girls that would be impressed by Lem.

I would imagine there are still tons of girls like that.  We just need to get them together for both's sake.

Now regarding the aluminum foil hat...I just have to ask about that. I have a neighbor who lives about a dozen houses down the street. She's late middle age and rarely comes out. When she does she wears on her head what appears to be a large aluminum pot covered with aluminum foil. After living the South my entire life, I just take things like this in stride. However, today I saw her again and noticed that she also had plastic bags wrapped around each leg, all up and down her legs. Does anyone have any idea what THAT's supposed to do? I confess, I literally AM afraid to ask her.

BTW, Her house had a political sign out front during the campaign. Wanna know whose name was on it?

Locally, I would guess Ron Paul.....

My scouting experience overall was good for the two years I was in it. The thing is, I feel Scouts today have a better experience than I did.

Lem wrote: It is funny, but the only thing that stuck in my crawl about Lem in the movie was that he was called Lem by the kids. It just didn't sit right for me and the Mrs...

The way I see it, is it depends on the people involved.  If the adults want to be formally addressed, then that is what courteous means. If the adults prefer to be called by first name, then that is what is courteous. 

Again. How do the 12 laws get uniformly applied?

They don't.  IMHO, a lot of this works like what U.S. Law used to work. It depends on community standards.  The scouts, IMHO, are a confederation, not a centralized organization.  Much of the way things actually work are based on community standards.

Are their guidelines as to what are the common courtesies? Should a scout's fingernails be untrimmed and filthy?

That is clearly not clean.

What about hair length, or body art and piercings?

As long as the hair is clean, and the tattoos and piercings are clean, it shouldn't matter.

What about body odor?

Clearly not clean.

What about foul language?

Clearly not courteous, nor reverent (and often not cheerful)

What about the standardized method of speaking to adults? You would think that that would be the first thing- wouldnt you? This is what we mean by courteous- and give an example of how an adult should be addressed.

IMHO, an adult should be addressed as they want to be addressed.  Until that knowledge is made clear, adults should be addressed Ma'am/Sir, and Mr./Mrs./Dr. so and so.  I have a good friend who's a Catholic priest. He would be annoyed if a parishioner started calling him Father Smith vs. Father Joe. 

But it seems here that the scouters are not in agreement as to what is the courtesy of speech. OK. What is the standard of clean? Or the standard of bravery? Or helpful. And good golly Miss Molly- it seems that you guys really got a problem with obedience. If you cant get an animal like a horse to obey a command, then it is considered worthy of the petting zoo or the glue factory- it is a feral beast. If you cant come up with a standard of what obedience is, then why include it in the scout law. From the sound of it, it seems that BSA has done an end run around the laws and obedience by insisting that the highest law is the patrol method and the will of the patrol.

I don't see the problem with obedience that you see.  The thing is, the Scoutmaster isn't a "master" of the Scouts.  The Scoutmaster should be more of a teacher and advisor. 

A standard is just that- standardized. If you have a system where we can all agree on nice words like leadership, and the 12 laws and the oath, but are hard pressed to find common goals and outcomes as to what a clean scout is, or what common courtesies are, then what the heck is a uniformed organization supposed to do? I guess I really do have a problem with the idea of youth lead if the youth are in charge as to the theme, the standards of appropriate conduct, the interpretation of the scout law, etc..

Community standards determine "clean scout" or "common courtesies." 

To say that scouting is the same today as it always was tells me that you were not a scout in your youth Bob, because if you were you would know that it is not even close. I applaud all scouters who can think outside the box and while following the rules can also use an original and creative methodology to bring the scouting program to their youth.

I guess it's a reflection of the troop I was in, but I think Scouting today is better than it was when I was a youth (late 1970s).

Goldwinger wrote:

Lem would have fallen under the "creepy" category of one poster because he didn't have boys in the troop. I strongly believe that coming into Scouting because your son joined is weakening the delivery of the program. The SM and CC (or ASM or MC) who have kids in the program usually have an agenda revolving around their kids. Also being parents, they don't want to see their children fail so they wind up taking charge. Then the whole thing starts to slide downhill.

Good point. 

 Throw in a big dose of "I really don't want to be here" with many of the boys and you aren't going to have "esprit de corps." They're just there on Tuesday nights because their parents made them. Patrol competitions, yells, etc. make no never mind to them because THEY DON'T WANT TO BE THERE. Where do they want to be?

Playing video games.

I don't see a lot of that with Scouts.  Scouts are in Scouts because they need an alternative to video games.  While most kids play some video games, I find those into scouting play less of them. 

Lem, look around you. The suburban or even urban child of our youth and before is long gone. Kids are under continual supervision today, especially when young. The only kids that aren't supervised today are the bad eggs, the ones out roaming the streets at 2 AM on a school night because their parents don't give a hoot.

Think about it. A kid today gets up and goes to before school care, then off to school, then after school care, finally to home to gobble a quick dinner and then off to karate, soccer, chorus, Scouts, church school, etc. and finally home to be. Where's the free time to build go-karts, tree-forts, dig big holes, or just watch the clouds float by?

Unfortunately, that is so true.  A few years ago, I decided to go with my boys on an exploration trip of some nearby vacant land.  I was both pleasantly and unpleasantly surprised at the kids I saw. I was happy that there were other kids out on a nice day.  The sad part is that besides me and my boys, the only people roaming and playing in the woods were girls.  They were playing similar to the way boys did when I was growing up. 

Is it any wonder that kids today make stupid choices the first chance that they have? Drinking excessively. Sex? One young woman that I know told me that her goal on spring break was to have sex with as many guys as she could. She wants to be a teacher and is a dean's list student but HOW STUPID CAN YOU BE?

So back to Scouting. In today's world where no one will allow their child to fail where does that leave Scouting?

Well, it gives them a chance to fail with good people backing them up. I think the parents of new scouts should be told the importance of "trial and error" learning for scouts.  I really don't view this as a pass/fail thing, but a try until you pass thing. 

In my perfect world, the Scoutmaster and most of the committee would have no children in the unit. They'd want to see the unit succeed for the sake of all of the children and not just their own.

That's where the Lems of the world come from. They aren't looking out for their child, they're looking out for all of the children.

 I'll end this by saying I know that someone or a few will pipe up and say, "Hey, I don't do that" but, come on admit it, you're in the minority. We're all in the minority because we come here and discuss how things are done, should be done and could be done. There's what, a million Scouters out there? How many participate on this or any other forum? Thousands may be registered but only a few particiapte on a regualar basis.

Look at all the other opportunities for learning that Scouters have and ignore. What would Roundtable be like if every unit Scouter came? How about UoS?

 Last year a district that I was working with promulgated a rule that all "direct contact" Scouters must be "trained" by the next recharter time. At the roundtable where this was announced, one CM stood up and said, "My den leaders won't stand for that and they'll quit." Why? Why wouldn't you want to know the WHAT, HOW and WHY of your job? I'm starting to ramble so I'll quit now.

Busy schedules.  I retook NLE and took Position Specific training for Webelos this year, as well as BALOO and OWL.  It took a lot of my precious weekend time on two separate weekends to do that.  I have a fellow Den leader in my pack. He's a firefighter, and works one day on/one day off.  Since he's become a Den Leader, every single offering of Position Specific training has occurred on his work days.  He's done all the online training possible, and I wouldn't be surprised if he's on here sometimes.  However, he would have to relinquish his post, if stringent requirements were put into place.