BDPT00

I didn't notice anything incorrect about emb021's statement. Are your denying that they should/could have run the merit badge? Sure sounds reasonable to me. In fact, I think it's a great idea.

BDPT00

Have I ever seen it? No.

Would it be OK? No.

BDPT00

I think that the current questions regarding new requirements is late but valid. It's an interpretation question, but it deserves a high-level answer ... not just an opinion by a district advancement chair or a DE. There should be a clear answer, so that units don't handle the requirements differently. How they do them is fine, but knowing what the requirement means is another. They're good questions, and they should get factual answers.

BDPT00

I hear ya.

Many times when a person asks for a ruling or a fact about something, he gets lots of opinions (and that's fine on other topics when opinion is what's asked for) when what he's asking for is an answer. The current POR subject is an example. Nobody has supplied an example of a POR for an adult. To me, that means the answer is no. If someone has an example, then bring it. Otherwise it's just a bunch of maybe and could be. It's not an answer.

I'll give you and answer: no.

Now, prove me wrong.

BDPT00

If he's a participant in the Jamboree, he should be wearing the uniform of the troop attending the Jamboree. (not just any uniform he wishes)

BDPT00

(This is, of course, unless he asks BadenP)

So . . . so far, the answer to the original question is no. POR is for advancement.

How in the world can following the guidelines be called ridiculous?

Attacking me for going along with the requested uniforming says what about me? And what does it say about you?

"do you give any really valid reasons why a single cloth patch would topple the pillars of BSA uniforming"

*** Wow! Were those my words?

I correct uniforming in my own unit, so sashes aren't worn over the left shoulder or on a belt, and that hats come off at appropriate times, and shirts are tucked in. I've seen rank patches upside down. I take care of it in a very subtle manner, so I don't bruise egos. Is that worthy of ridicule? I think not. You obviously think otherwise, and that's your choice. Not my problem.

I hope that someday you get your wish and somebody asks, so you can make your statement about that pin on your shirt. 25 years is a long to to wait for nothing. Don't wait for me. I won't ask.

BDPT00

I haven't looked back to see what caused the lying remark, but I agree with Scouting's postion ... and yours.

BDPT00

FScouter wrote: "Anyone can do whatever they want with regards to the uniform and insignia, and they do."

*** That's no different than saying that "Everybody speeds, so it's not really breaking any laws." "Everybody else cheats, so it's OK."

And BadenP writes: "Only the 'uniform police' are the ones who ever seem to get upset about it," as well as "I have always worn a small Life pin on the pocket flap of my uniforms, for a special personal reason. In over 25 years of scouting service not one scouter volunteer or professional scouter has ever objected or told me I was breaking the rules for wearing that pin."

*** It's clear than that the uniform police aren't in your face. Everybody whines about the mythical police. It's like another urban legend.

I will repeat my position... The Insignia Guide exists for a reason, and a big part of that reason is uniformity. I happen to be one who chooses to follow the guidelines. One who intentionally chooses to not follow them and encourages others to do the same (most often by example) doesn't get my support regarding uniforming.

BDPT00

"Correct it's not allowed. BUT as we all know some don't always follow the rules."

True. Then it's the responsibility of those who follow rules (a Scout is Obedient) to set the example. I happen to be one who chooses to where the uniform properly.

BDPT00

My opinion: Sometimes with large troops, there aren't enough "positions" to go around. I think the POR allows a Scoutmaster to give a particular assignment to a Scout to earn the credit for leadership without benefit of a particular position patch. (One of them might have been a webmaster, which now has a patch.) This is superior to handing a kid a patch and not telling him what his job is.

So ... I think a position of responsibility can be handled with or without a patch.

BDPT00

I'm seeing a mixed message on the district patch question. There shouldn't be any confusion. It's not allowed.

BDPT00

"An adult scouter can cover his/her uniform shirt with every doo dad known to mankind, yet it's perfectly within the bounds of the "rules" and accepted practice"

I can't agree with that. I've seen all the doo dads, but if they're not within the insignia guidelines, they're not accepted practice for those who choose to comply and to set the example for proper uniforming.

BDPT00

"Wonder if you would even be considered for wood badge staff if you took the wood badge refresher course."

** How/Why? A "refresher" certainly wouldn't make one qualified ... according to the staff guide. However, it may prompt a good look by the region if the council is seeking a waiver of the requirements for an outstanding presenter. Worth a try and a question. Automatic? No.

BDPT00

Hasn't somebody from your outfit visited other troops to see what they do? Pick up some hinst from others in the area. If the parents want it to be an individual event, I'd lean that way. I see it as an either-or. Can do it as part of a troop COH, and play it up or down as much as you like. Or do it as a separate event. Personally, I wouldn't hand out other awards at an ECOH. It could diminish the significance of the other awards. It's an interesting concept though. It would be fun to plan this if that's what the family wants to do. Could be unique and special for everybody. As you've read, it's not a "decision" to be made by us. All we have are opinions.

BDPT00

"A DC position is an excellent way for a new Scout (at least Tenderfoot rank) to start a 'leadership toolbox', especially if he took to it like you describe."

*** As long as we're looking for a minimum rank requirement for a Den Chief, where did this one come from?

BDPT00

Just to satisfy my own curiosity...

Can you produce an Insignia Guide ever authorizing anything other than a veteran bar to be worn in that position?

BDPT00

I hear both of you, John/KC and BadenP. My father won the DFC, and my uncle won 2; both fighting the Japenese. My father let it go. My uncle never did. I understand both of them and both of you.

I would hold nothing against your father for what he says, John, but I agree with what BadenP says regarding later generations. The war is over. I think we hear similar arguments with the Stars and Bars. Some can forget. Others never will, even though it was a century and a half ago. That doesn't do anybody any good.

I try to not use words that would offend people I don't even know. Our current relations with people on the other side of the world don't make that easy, but I try.

BDPT00

Eagle92 stated:EDITED: not trying to sound unscoutlike, but trying to show that it is acceptable similar to Aussies for Australians, Kiwis for New Zealanders, Brits for Brtitish and of course Yanks for Americans (although in my part of the woods calling someone a YANK is fighting words)

Dictionary.com states:

Aussie: noun (informal) an Australian.

Brit: noun (informal) British person.

Kiwi: noun (informal) New Zealander.

Yanks: short for Yankee. (Not defined as derogatory)

Jap: offensive slang Used as a disparaging term for a person of Japanese birth or descent.

I don't really care to get into a battle of words, but I'm simply quoting what I found on my first glance at a dictionary. If this were a WWII movie, "Jap" would be an acceptable word for the enemy. That was 65 years ago, and the war is over. For those with nightmares and memories that won't let go, I'd give them a free pass. But for people of our generation, we should know better. People of my generation called our enemies "Gooks," and many still do. That term, however, is unacceptable for our current Scouts' generation. Do we need to go back a few more years to discuss words for people of different races? The "N-word" isn't even spoken by news media when stating a quote from someone, but 50 and 60 years ago, it was common and acceptable slang among many.

I find "Jap" to be offensive, and I was simply stating so. Sorry if I offended anyone by it.

BDPT00

John/KC,

I find your term for the Japanese to be totally outdated and derogatory. I hope you don't share that language with your Scouts.

BDPT00

I'm with John/KC. These experiences used to be called growth conferences. A boy's experiences in Scouting change after he's "arrived." Too often, Scouts "graduate" when they've reached Eagle. There's so much more they can do, give, and recieve as an Eagle. Sitting before a board can be very beneficial for everyone involved. We like to think that these kids are goal oriented. To me, sitting on 21 merit badges for a few years doesn't impress me very much. Granted, if they're involved in OA or NYLT or maybe a crew (or all of the above), they can be busy and active. That's great. If they rest on their laurels, I think they set a weak example.

I visited a troop COH last night. After the merit badges and then rank advancements were issued, the latest Eagle was announced (his award will be presented later). Then the SM asked, "And what comes after Eagle?" In unison, I'd say 15 Scouts shouted out "Palms!" An Eagle was then presented two palms, and was greated with warm and enthusiastic applause, inclusing mine. I think to play them down with an attitude of, "So it's not that big a deal. Just passing the time," does our Scouts a disservice. They should be encouraged.

BDPT00

How did we all of a sudden take on the role of judge regarding advancement? Not a big deal? Every other advancement is a big deal, and I'm reading a lot of people remembering what they did or did not do regarding palms, so people still know their status from years ago. Why are we suddenly suggesting that a Scout shouldn't pay any attention to advancement and recognition? It's one of our methods. We ignore it?

BDPT00

Just for the sake of argument ... I think that the most discriminated group these days is white American straight Christian males. Maybe that's why people join the KKK (the only reason I'm mentioning that is that I don't need someone else to do it for me).

It's OK to have a gay parade. Can we have a straight parade?

It's OK to celebrate Kwanza in our schools, or to sing Dradle, but we'd better not have a "Christmas" tree.

It's great to have an International Women's Day, but can you imagine a "Men's Day?"

Ever run up against Affirmative Action? Are there scholarships available for your sons because of their race or ethnicity?

Can an employer fire you for poor performance, or is he intimidated by litigation brought on by some advocacy group?

Now ... this will obviously draw criticism, but I'm simply raising an argument. We have an organization for boys. Our membership requirements discriminate against gays, athiests, and girls. The Girl Scouts will welcome gays and athiests, but they're pretty careful about men. We're the bad guys, and the closer we are to the majority (WASPs), the more we're scrutinized. Nobody out there is going to advocate for me. We're heavily criticized for our exclusivity. What's next? Is a twelve year old going to sue us because he can't join Cub Scouts and race his derby car? We have specific joining requirements, and I think we should keep them. There are other organizations out there... this one is for boys.

Do groups need advocates? Sure they do. That's fine, but it feels like in order to be for something, they have to be against something else. I don't think that something else should be the Boy Scouts.

So there. I've loaded this up with plenty of politically incorrect comments. Have a ball.

BDPT00

It's amazing to what lengths people will go to justify their behavior instead of just saying, "I don't care."

BDPT00

"Seriously, I don't think anyone will have a problem with terminology"

Are you kidding?!

It seems like half of the responses are mentioning it or putting it in quotes. It reminds me of someone saying, "I was an Eagle Scout." People jump on it.

The consistant answer I'm seeing appears to be that those who care about uniforming say wear the pants. I'm on that side of the fence.

BDPT00