BDPT00

It's most unfortunate that we staffers often forget to pay attention to the words. If we're modeling, we should do it correctly.

And then there's the tune.

BDPT00

I used to be an Antelope, but I don't respond to birds in the wilderness.

Sorry, BDPT00

I see a couple of things I'm curious about. One is, what does it mean to "graduate" an Eagle Scout?

The other question, and more to what you're asking, is that it sound like you've got lots of adult leaders, and that's cool, but I think they may be misplaced. With 25 registered leaders, what are their roles (how registered)?

BDPT00

"I know that the boys can have thier outdoor patch on the pocket cover for the right pocket."

You can't just go by what other people do. Check the Insignia Guide. You're doing the right thing by investigating. This "outdoor patch" you're referring to does not belong on a pocket flap.

BDPT00

"To wear our country's flag properly, the field of stars is worn closest to your heart."

Where in the world did that come from?

BDPT00

"Huh? What's this have to do with the question at hand?

18, 19, and 20 year old are in limbo in our society. They can vote but they can't drink. They can join the army but they can't buy a pistol. Many police forces won't take 18 year old applicants but they can join the fire department."

Well, GW, this is probably a mistake, bit I'll ask you the same question. What's YOUR point?

I was talking about uniforming and people just doing what they feel like because they think they have a better idea or that rules don't matter.

BDPT00

Well, here's another one to tell you it was never "physically fit." I haven't looked it up, but you'll be hard pressed to find in writing what you remember. Good luck.

BDPT00

1. No. (And why only the Eagle badge? Does this imply that a Life Scout is something insignificant? What's the message?) If 21, why not 25 or 26? Then we could be more in-line with British youth.

We're a uniformed organization. I like to wear red socks. Would it have been OK to wear them when I was in the Army? Why not? They're comfortable and funtional, and most people wouldn't care or know the difference anyway. Maybe if enough other people wore them, too, it might become a new regulation. It's my uniform. Why should somebody else care?

2. No (Does that become an issue, too?)

BDPT00

Lisabob,

You mentioned the mission and vision statements, and Eagledad mentioned the Aims and Methods.

The outdoors is one of the Methods to achieving our Aims. It doesn't need to to be mentioned in the mission and vision.

It sounds to me like your unit isn't following all of the Methods. One happens to be Ideals. Ideals are mentioned in both the mission and vision statements, so they must be rather important. Our Ideals are stated in the Oath and Law. If your unit has a bullying problem, then your leadership isn't helping to enforce the Oath and Law very well. Your kids raise their right hands and promise to do their best to be Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, and Kind. I don't find bullying to be compatible with any of these Laws. Don't blame the program. Check out your own leadership. Your older Scouts need to learn to be Obedient, and they need to be Brave enough to live up to their promise.

Fix the culture. Don't throw it out.

BDPT00

"Another question about knots what about a youth wearing the Arrow of Light knot? While actually wearing the Arrow of Light Patch under their pocket?"

It's incorrect. What's the question?

BDPT00

It baffles me how so many people can simply ignore the Insignia Guide. It's very clear, and opinions opposed to it are simply inaccurate. There is not argument (a Scout is Obedient). If they could wear the Eagle patch, then why not a First Class or Life patch? It's the same thing: a rank. A youth rank patch worn with an adult position patch is incorrect. If they could wear the Eagle patch instead, they should also be allowed to wear the youth patch for the Arrow of Light. Is that an argument worth pursuing? It just makes no sense. If you're a troop (or pack) member, you're an adult at 18. Dress accordingly and appropriately. You're an adult ... one of your most important roles is to set the example. I don't think that should include wearing in inaccurate uniform.

BDPT00

Then you're uniformly out of uniform. It's a nice pin, and it's good that you're all proud of it. There are numerous pins you could wear there, and so could your Scouts. Lots of them would seem approriate, but all would be incorrect.

Part of our responsibility as adults is to model correct uniform wear. I happen to take that role seriously. I hope you'll look it up in the Insignia Guide, and that you'll do what's right. That's part of our responsibilty, too.

BDPT00

NYLT is a fine title to use on a job or college application. For a non-Scouter, though, Wood Badge doesn't mean squat either.

I've seen two interesting exmples given. One is cheering for the "Bears" rather than the "Chicago NFL Team." The other example though is the Big Mac idea. The points are made on opposite sides of the argument, but I like both. I think the issue is name recognition and marketing.

If nobody really cares what the course is called, call it NYLT. If it matters though, I'm in favor of "Cedar Bark - NYLT"

I know we don't get to vote, but there's mine anyway.

BDPT00

I'm finding the comparison to Wood Badge and the word "national" to be interesting. I've never considered Wood Badge to be a national course. Is BALOO a national course, too?

Any council putting on a course will inadvertently find a way to instill local traditions. Some will intentionally change things no matter what it's called.

In my council, I think the boys will be upset (and they have no trouble discerning that our local name is our council's home of NYLT, so that's not an issue here).

Here's what I don't care for ... we're going through this change (the new rules) so that some adults can be recognized. If the kids interpret the changes to be for that purpose, there's no wonder they'll be upset when the name they've become accustomed to and proud to represent is abandoned so that Mr So-n-so can get a bead.

Yes, change happens. I get that. But why the name? We are an organization of traditions (some good ... some not so). I don't see the good yet in calling our course "NYLT." If we change, we change (and I'll do it if we have to), but the price is paid for by the youth who proudly wear their local colors, and the reward goes around an adult's neck.

BDPT00

It's clear that there's some misunderstanding of what's going on with NYLT, as well as with the original post. The original poster likes local names and traditions, and doesn't like the handle, "NYLT."

Although NYLT states the intent of the syllabus, and it's wise to use it for rsum purposes, I think there's great value in naming a local course with a local name. Kids would have a much greater loyalty to White Stag or Brownsea or Pine Tree or whatever.

Here's the scoop. National is intending to remove all local names, and to call all courses NYLT (to make it look, feel, and sound more like the singular name, Wood Badge). Due to the long tradition, there's a certain romantic or nostalgic quality to "Wood Badge." That same feeling doesn't exist with "NYLT." I'd submit that we find a great name (no idea what it might be though), or we stick with our local names, such as "Silver Acorn - NYLT." This way, we get the "national leadership training" for syllabus and rsum purposes, and the local council (the youth) can build their traditions (hats, neckers, slides, flags, t-shirts, stationary, and patches) around their local name.

Ideadoc, is that what you're getting at? If so, then I agree.

BDPT00

"be the epitome of physical fitness (or whatever terms they used)"

I think we're being rather presumptuous of the meaning of "whatever terms they used." It may very well mean passing a Class 3 physical. I don't know where the "pretty for TV" bit came from.

We need to calm down a bit, and carry on. If you want to go to the Jamboree, then get ready to go.

See you there.

BDPT00

GW wrote:

"There is a proper position for that patch but most don't read the Insignia Guide. Midway between the top of the shoulder and the top of the pocket or the top row of knots.

That said, in ten years, I've never worn the purple patch."

I've just gotta ask ... regarding reading the Insignia Guide, although I think it's not a bad idea, where does the book say anything about the World Crest in relation to the top row of knots?

Second ... What's the significant of stating that you've never worn the purple patch? Is there a message there?

BDPT00

Recognition is part of the game, but I don't think that competition among troops is too wise, particularly if we're counting Eagle Scouts produced. I've never felt that counting those particular notches on the belt is a good idea.

I like the Quality Unit style ... where the standard is set, and anyone who reaches it can be recognized. That's more of a Scouting style ... tell us what the requirements are, and let us do our best to achieve them.

BDPT00

That's why I brought it up. The term got thrown into the conversation, and it was clear that people had differing ideas of what it was, and there was no resolution. It's been bothering me ever since... that people out there are using a term freely, and not knowing what it means.

I thought it might come in handy to discuss it by itself (outside the realm of pie and gravy, or whatever anybody else was thrown in there).

BDPT00

Thank you. I was assuming that someone would quote Greenleaf, but not so soon. I know others have a different take on it, and I'm curious to hear how else to define it. The OA, for example, uses the term, and I don't think it carries the same meaning to them. One poster seems to think that it means to simply give in to the wishes of those you lead.

BDPT00

I was just reading about another subject, and the question of "What is Servant Leadership to you?" came up. I've seen the term thrown about, and I've seen at least one person label it as worthless. There seems to me to be a misunderstanding of what it is.

So let's get some definition to it. I honestly feel that most people don't understand what it's meant to be, but are willing to use the term anyway.

BDPT00

"I don't think it's right to just make stuff up and call it fact."

So ... now we've finally brought this subject around to Scouting.

BDPT00

One would certainly need some details.

Are you familiar with Eagle Courts of Honor? Does your community have a history of presenting Gold Awards? Are they all presented at the same time (they are here, and I think that's very unfortunate). What does the recipient want or expect? Are you the parent? What do they want?

I think the place to start is to state what is normal, and tell us if you want more or less than that. Ideas will come.

BDPT00

As I stated (it appears I didn't state it clearly enough), we're talking two different "passwords" here.

The OA Forum seems to need the Admonition (never visited the site, but I believe it). The other being mentioned here is for Jumpstart, and I quote ... "The password is the fifth word of the title on page 10 of your OA Handbook."

So again I'll say we're not all on the same page.

BDPT00

As we progress from post to post, the words "admonition" and "password" seem to have become interchangable, and therefore a source of confusion (what's written on the back of the card, etc). We're not all on the same page here.

BDPT00