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I really think these MB Midways (or colleges or whatever you call them) have become popular because of the idea of parents wanting their kids to earn as much as they can as quickly as they can.  We have a MB Midway for our district (now Council wide) and we advertise it as a troop because we are nagged about pushing it by our district and council folks.  We had a boy from our troop this year that showed up with MB cards that weren't signed by our SM.  A couple of counselors wouldn't sign off until he went and got the SM signature.  The troop has an established procedure about getting blue cards and he circumvented that.  He also walked up to our UC who was working the event as a volunteer, not a counselor, and was upset when they said that they weren't there to do Merit Badges.  The parents followed both he and his brother around through the entire day (one of the boys is in HS) to try and make sure people signed off.  Then he came up to our advancement chair at the urging of his father to get all these MBs recorded as earned without the proper signatures.  The boys was stunned when our advancement chair made him get the signatures before we would record the MBs as done.

Again, I tend to blame overzealous, helicopter parents for these issues.

Glad to see you post again Eamonn. Now that I am back on again, I miss seeing your thoughtful and thought provoking posts!  

Ours are $65 annually for first scout $58 or so for each additional (don't charge them the Boys Life) and $25 for adult leaders.  Monthly camps are $15-20 for a regular and more for event camps (canoeing, caving).  Depending on where the family camp is, we charge anywhere from $45-$65 per person.  We only do popcorn for fundraising, although every couple of years a new parent asks about doing a spring fundraiser so the new scouts can earn money to pay for Summer Camp.  Our summer camp is $255 (early bird).  It was pretty cheap (like $180-$200) up until a couple of years ago and we have seen a pretty big increase since then.  It is still cheaper than a lot of camps, so I am not complaining !

Here in the Bible belt we have more than enough Scout leaders who believe Scouting is their opportunity to proselytize. I've watched adults interrupt Scouts' Own Services which they didn't feel were Christian enough. I've personally had to deal with a Jamboree ASM discouraging Jewish Scouts from attending Jewish services because he thought "the boys needed Jesus." These folks don't need further encouragement or opportunities to insert themselves in others' faith.

Seriously?!?!  I didn't realize that Christian Scout leaders were supposed to be on conversion missions at Jamboree!!!

I like the idea.  Please do let us know how it goes as it might be something for my boys to try if they want.

There is no official minimum for hours, but in any case 153 hours is well in excess of a lot of Eagle Projects that I have seen, so not sure why he is supposed to go and find more hours.  Second, if everyone signed off on the proposal, there is no reason for him to change this at this point in time.  Finally, I agree with your argument this is your son's book not the SM's and as long as he can explain and answer questions about his project, he shouldn't have 4-5 weeks of wording change.  I would speak to your District Advancement Chair if this doesn't resolve itself quickly.

That's kind of funny.  My oldest son still refuses to change his red loops to the new green ones.  They changed when he was a junior in HS I think and he wanted to know why they changed them, so even though everyone in the troop got the green ones, he still wore the red ones.

One Scoutmaster of mine commented that there are a lot of Eagle Scouts out there who, if dropped in the woods in the middle of nowhere, would die of starvation and exposure. He thought this was a sad state of affairs and that there was no excuse for it.

My oldest son thinks that of some Eagle scouts (including those that he was in scouts with)!

mozartbrau,

I assumed that they approved of the project proposal beforehand based on the fact that they signed off on the proposal months ago.  Why would they have him change stuff in the proposal section if they approved that piece before?

I agree with you that they could be violating BSA guidelines.  It would really take a lot of negatives for me as SM not to sign off on someone's Eagle workbook.  There was another thread in here from a couple of months ago about what you could have the scout fix before signing off on the proposal which had some interesting comments in there.

 

The response he has gotten from the leaders is that "it is not good enough" and the workbook is the "not the way Troop 74 does it".  So he was sent home last night and told to re-write most of the answers, change the way the supplies are listed, and changes need to be made to the Proposal Section.  The proposal was signed by the Scout Master, Committee Chair, District Executive, and the Beneficiary months ago. Also, he was told that he needs more work hours.  

 

I feel that it is unreasonable to ask him to make changes to the proposal now after the work is completed. I agree that there are a few answers that could be worded a little differently but they are his answers.  I was told by one leader that this reviewing and making changes at Troop meetings could go on for another 4-5 weeks before they are satisfied that it is done correctly.    

 

Is this process the norm?   I expected the workbook process to be somewhat daunting but this seems like a bit much.  

And how exactly, if the work is done, is he supposed to get more work hours? 

I know that we were told by our District Advancement Chair that we can suggest changes to a proposal but that it was really up to the boy to include everything.  I'm not sure what kind of changes the troop leaders want him to make that will make this a 4-5 week process.   One question I have is was the actual project work so different than the proposal that it may cause issues at his BOR?  As a SM in the past, I have always looked at Eagle Workbooks and made suggestions on how to tweak things (maybe a little more than suggestions with my own sons' workbooks) to make it a little more cohesive and explanatory, but my troop didn't have "standards" that they had to meet other than it had to be done in ink or typewritten.  I knew what the BOR was looking for so I would give advice.  The only thing that I can think of is that they know your son's book would be harmful to him in his EBOR, but I always made suggestions and told them that it was up to them to be able to explain their books and projects to their EBOR members.

I have had no issues with Firefox on my Macbook, so I don't know that it is an overall Firefox problem.

No, sometimes as SM I used to have conferences or our Advancement person would talk to boys not advancing, but not a BOR.

It's not that we allow or don't allow people to participate, poor choice of words on my part (although there are troops that complain about them coming, but that's a different story).  My comment about getting prizes was just meant to show how thoughtful and courteous this troop was.

Although, Stosh, I do have to say, we don't see a lot of sharing among councils or districts various events in my area and I have heard of troops turned away when they went to register for an event outside their area.

Something came up tonight at our meeting and I am curious as to what the group's thoughts are.  I will preface this by saying that I know in a perfect world that PLs should be working with the boys to see how they are progressing along their advancement trail.  However, in the case of my troop that doesn't happen like it used to.

Anyway, I had a case tonight when I was talking to a parent of an older scout about Summer Camp.  She was talking about all the merit badges her son had earned including Eagle required.  I had just spoke with this scout and found out that he was still First Class.  In talking to the mom, it sounded like he had enough merit badges to be at Star.  So I went and had a chat with him and asked him some questions about the other requirements to see if he was ready to sit for his SM Conference and BOR.  He had accomplished everything, but didn't have anything signed off.  At this point we had a heart to heart discussion about how he needed to take responsibility for his own advancement.  He told me that he could be lazy and had a hard time self motivating.  After our discussion (both one-on-one and in his BOR) about how important it was for him to take ownership of his advancement if that was what he wanted I think he seemed to understand and be excited for the next steps.  Oh, and he advanced to Star tonight by the end of the meeting.

My question is, do you, as adult leaders, monitor progress of boys and have periodic discussions with them about how they are doing, or do you leave that totally to the boy leaders and the scout themself to do this?  The reason I am asking is this is the second scout I have talked to in the last couple of months that has been in the same boat, everything earned just nothing signed off and no motivation to talk to any adults and sitting at the same rank for over a year.  As I step back in as SM, I feel that this is something that I should be doing, at least until I can get the boys to start doing this, but I would value your opinions.

As an aside, I was very happy with our TGs tonight as they worked with our recently crossed over scouts to earn their Scout badge.  It was great to see them take the initiative to do this.

We have a troop that drives 2 hours every year for our Klondike because they like it much better than the one in their council/district.  They contribute a ton of prizes every year as a thank you for allowing them to participate.  Their boys are some of the nicest scouts I have ever met.

I would agree that it would be pretty hard to go to a troop where they don't know you, so I give all those who have done that a tremendous amount of credit.  Obviously, you guys have a true love of scouting!

Although I defiantly agree with the student learning to do without mom in tow at the college stage of the game.. I personally was not happy with not seeing the grades, luckily my son went to college locally and lived at home, and he was pretty responsible.. But, the only thing we could do was tell him if he failed a grade, he would pay to retake it.. We never would know if he was passing with D's or C's..  I always wondered how many parents spent thousands for students who partied their college away and four years later they found they were out thousands and their child passed little more then maybe gym class..

I'm with moosetracker on this.  I agree that parents shouldn't be going to advising meetings with students, but if I am paying for my boys to go to college, I should have the right to see how they are spending my money.  At the school that my sons go to, we can see their final grades, but nothing during a semester to see how they are doing.  My sons also know that they better sign the FERPA paperwork or they won't get that tuition paid!

It absolutely does hold true for any leaders. 

 

I stated what I see in our troop are some issues.   We also have an adult leader who has never been married and have no children, he is one of our best leaders.  He is a committee member and is greatly respected by our leaders as well as the scouts. He takes the time to know the boys, he knows what they do outside the meetings, he talks TO them. Many of our committee members have scouts who have aged out and are on the committee because they truly believe in the scout program and see the benefits, they stay on because they mentor Eagle Scouts or just want to keep the troop strong.  I am not saying that ALL leaders who have no scouts in the program are problimatic, I am saying that SOME are.

 

The problem adults that we have (and that I have seen) use their position often times to boost their own egos.  Our troop is over 100 years old and many of our Eagle Scouts and their porjects have garnered quite a bit of publicity in our area.  I have heard one of our leaders tell new parents that he had a single conversation with a scout that "changed that scout's life".  We have a leader who isn't "good with email"  If he needs to know about anything going on he requires a phone call and doesn't understand why that is an issue.  We have leaders who don't think we need a troop website.  We proposed a troop twitter account and one committee member didn't know what twitter was.  I have seen a leader schedule Eagle Scout Board of Review the at the same time as a scout's High School graduation because they din't know what is going on outside their own life.  Some leaders who don't have son's in the program  don't agree with the new policies or priorities of BSA and they want to hold onto "their" idea of what scouting is, and they have been leaders for however many years, so they know.  The ONLY training our current CC has is youth protection and he was the SM 12 years ago!  I am more trained than he is (in my far shorter tenure as a leader) and he doesn't care.  There is another troop in our town that has had the same SM for 30 years.  They don't do district camporees because he doesn't like them, the scouts in his unit don't even know there are district camporees.  They do the same thing year after year because that is wat they have always done.   Again, I am not saying that all leaders without scouts in the program are like this, and I apologize if that is how my post came across, but sadly, I know some that are.

andysmom,

I agree that there are some folks who have been around a long time and probably aren't doing anyone in the troop any good.  The troop my oldest son started out with was that way.  The leaders in the troop (most of them) had no sons in the troop, had been involved for years and years and did things completely wrong.  Think, testing boys at their BORs and failing them if they can't tie a certain knot.  When people brought up changing things, they would shut people down right away.  I don't even think most of them were trained.  We had a local troop that had a SM that refused to reach out to his feeder pack because he thought that they should come to his troop automatically.  I could go on with examples of leaders that are that way.  As I do this going forward, I keep those folks in my mind as someone I don't want to become.

As others have said, I have seen people with boys in the troop that aren't the best.  My successor in the current troop (that I am stepping back in for) no longer has the boys doing anything in patrols.  When I ask why, he has excuses (not enough boys, not enough leaders).  I worked on creating a troop website, he never updated it, nor had anybody update it.  He doesn't do a troop calendar and the campouts are planned a month or two before.  He is a really good guy and I appreciated him stepping up when I was ready to step down a couple of years ago, so I don't want to bash him.  However, he has boys in the troop and has been trained, so it does go both ways.

I appreciate all the feedback that everyone provided and it has provided some interesting comments!

Interesting concept.  It gives the boys some choice in what they want to do, what a concept!     I might take you up on picking one of the categories that they have to have two in and that would be Society as I think it is one of our major duties as leaders is to help our boys learn good citizenship.

I think by doing this you might have boys that dread the MB portion of scouting less than they currently do.

As I am about to embark on another term as Scoutmaster of my troop, this time without any sons in the troop as scouts (although my oldest son is helping me as a leader), I am curious how many of you esteemed fellow forum members are also active leaders in troops that your son(s) are no longer members.

I am really re-energized to work with the boys and get them back on track again.  I am interested to find out what the parents and other leaders in the troop think of your involvement.  Are they appreciative of time and effort or do they give you a hard time as being an "old timers" who are overstaying their welcome.

Like I have said in the past, I have had nothing but positive comments about coming back to my troop, but I was wondering how long that lasts!

I'll take somewhat of a hit on this one.  When I was SM, if we were going on a visit somewhere right before or right after lunch, we would let or have the boys do sandwiches for lunch, just from a convenience standpoint. 

However, I have gone on a few campouts lately where we were just hanging around the camp and the boys did cold cut sandwiches for lunch at almost every campout (the only one they didn't was Klondike where they had to make a hot meal as part of the competition).  I think, as we start doing patrol cooking again, that I may need to coach them into thinking of actually "cooking" lunch!

 

 

Before recommending knives to boys, it would be good to check the local laws concerning knives and where and when you can carry what size.  

 

Yes, an Eagle Scout had a 1" pocket knife in his survival kit which he accidentally left in his in his truck on school property and he was suspended for 5 days.

 

The size of one's hand isn't specific enough.  Just take the time and make sure what works for your boys to keep them safe.

My son and his buddy did a Philmont practice hike over the weekend while my wife and I were out of town and he used his school backpack to do the hike (not sure why he didn't use his scout backpack).  He went to school on Monday and had forgotten to take the knife out and it fell out on the floor and was laying there when a teacher came up.  She asked whose it was and he took responsibility right away and he was sent to the principal's office.  Long story short, he was suspended for ten days and we had to go into the Superintendent's office for a expulsion hearing.  Mind you knife was closed and he wasn't waving it around and my son had never been in trouble.  Thankfully the Superintendent was very reasonable after hearing the explanation and since he had taken responsibility right away and had never been in trouble (and was in scouts) and reinstated my son right away.

I certainly understand why they have rules but sometimes seem to be a little crazy!

SSScout, totally agree. This was a while ago and I do know if they still do it or not. I didn't know that this was wrong until I changed troops and took training so I was the newbie. However, when I did mentio this stuff to leaders that were still in the troop it didn't matter. This was one of those troops where the CC and a lot of the committee had been with the troop for years and years and they were "large and in charge" so to speak. Again it has been quite a while since I have spoken to people in the troop so I hop things have changed.

Crisco?  Hadn't thought about that, but maybe we'll try that in the future.

I like how my SPL told me when I will know when to sign off on something. In this case first aid. "[Eagle94-A1], when you would trust Owl to do first aid on you if something happened to you, then you can sign off on it."

 

Never know when the skills they learn in Scouting, will be needed for real.

I think in a lot of cases, people (both scouts and adults/parents) don't think like that.  Just like with everything else Little Johnny does, people think it is about getting a check mark.  I have had discussions with parents about why their son hasn't had this or that requirement signed off yet when the rest of his buddies have.  The first thing I usually did was tell them to ask their son why and if they have and he hasn't told them, I would let them know that these are skills that are needed to be demonstrated, not a requirement that they can read back and have checked off.

On a bit of a tangent, I was shocked when I was on a campout last month and our Troop Guide was teaching the boys about fire safety and helping them earn their Firem'n Chit and I asked about having them start fires like the scouts used to have to do in order to earn that, I was told that they didn't have to do that anymore.  Shouldn't starting a fire be part of earning the Firem'n Chit?