pargolf44067

Based on several posts by lots of people on this forum, as well as personal experience, it appears that we have a significant issue with attracting volunteers at both the Boy Scout and Cub Scout level.  What do you think happens down the road when those of us that are volunteering now (with or without kids in scouts) decide we have had enough and leave?  Do you think there will be a natural evolution of people that will volunteer, perhaps boys that were in scouts and are now becoming adults/parents that will backfill?  Or do you think BSA will have to do something about it?

I am just curious because we seem to have a whole generation of parents (trying not to generalize) that don't really want to get involved in volunteering.  Some of them are helicopter parents who only care about their kid and what their kid is doing and some are drop and run parents who just don't care.  I personally think this could be a significant issue in the near future, if it isn't already in some places.  We have had packs fold this year in our district that have been around for over 50 years because of a lack of volunteers.

I know there are some who think the various stands taken by BSA one way or the other is causing some of this issue, but I think a bigger part of the issue is just parents that don't like to get involved any more.

For fear of running afoul of @LeCastor  , going back to the initial post, I think it would be an interesting merit badge.  I know a few people who brew, but I know nothing about it.  I think it would be kind of cool for the boys to brew root beer or sarsaparilla.  I wonder if the boys even know what sarsaparilla is! 

I think with what @@packsaddle went through, he has every right to his feelings, whether we agree with him or not.  He is just saying that he feels that alcohol and drinking are bad and he doesn't agree with it.  I don't necessarily agree with his absolute feelings on this, but I think he has the right to have those feelings.  And to compare his feelings about this to feelings on whether a gay scouter should be involved seems kind of out there.  He didn't say, at least that I saw, that people who drink shouldn't be leaders in scouts.

@@LeCastor,

The outgoing SM actually replaced me and saw how the troop was working when he was ASM and I was SM before.  He changed things to a point where we really weren't in patrols and it was becoming boy led.  When I agreed to come back, he and I had some discussion and I asked questions about the patrols and how the planning was being done.  So I think he kind of knew that I would be going back to how it had been done and was more than willing to help facilitate that.

He is staying on as a volunteer.  He still has two boys in the troop and he really enjoys working with the boys.  He had some work issues and I really don't think he liked all the administrative stuff that went along with the position.

Well, last night was my first official meeting as the returning SM.  We had a parent/committee meeting that I gave my report at with all the events that were coming up, while the SM I am replacing was working with the boys.

I think the old SM knew some of the things that we had done in the past were going to get resurrected and he was great about it.  The boys separated themselves into two patrols.  Although we supposedly had patrols, they never sat together or camped together, so this was an important first step. They even came up with their patrol names (one of them crazy sounding to me, but I am an old fart!).   As I came into the meeting from the parent meeting I heard him tell the boys that they were going to have to start doing more detailed planning and asked me when we were going to do the annual planning meeting (something he hadn't done in the two years that he was SM).  He actually seemed relieved last night that he wasn't the SM going forward. I also heard that he went over the individual positions with the boys and indicated that if they got a position they were going to really be held accountable to their duties, again, something that didn't seem to be done recently.  I appreciate that he is helping to transition the boys back to the patrol method/boy led troop that we had before instead of pushing against it.  

@@packsaddle,

With your experience, I think you have every right to your feelings whether they're absolutes or not.  Sorry that you had to go through that.

When I stepped in this time, I made it known to the troop that it was for an interim period of 12-18 months, and then I will step away for good.  I fully admit part of me stepping up is selfish because I didn't want to see a troop that a really involved group of leaders and I put a lot of time and effort in to start to come apart, which is what I was afraid was happening.  There is another leader that was really involved at the same time I was SM that is also helping me out.  However, at some point in time, I believe that the parents do need to step up and get involved with their kids for this to ultimately be successful.

Hopefully, in the next few months we can identify a group of people that will step forward and continue on with what this troop has been doing in the past.

So, blw2, I think it is great that you know in February you will step down no matter what, but like has been mentioned, if you want to step down earlier, don't let on that you are willing to stay through February.

It is the committee's job to find someone, but I can see why you have a vested interest in helping to recruit.

Stosh, I understand where you are coming from, but based on what blw2 is posting, as well as other posts that he is made, I can tell that he feels a lot of responsibility for the group and doesn't necessarily want to leave the group high and dry.  I am the same way and that is why I stepped back in when our SM had to step down for work reasons.  So it's easy to say as of xx/xx/xxxx I am done, it's hard to actually do this.

I am not sure what kind of parent involvement you have blw2, but sometimes it makes it easier for someone to step up if there are a lot of good people around them.  It's good to start well in advance and it is good to have an idea of a few people in mind that you have so you can approach them.  You want someone that's qualified as well as willing to do the job.

Good luck with this.

In my troops it's been the PL's.

 

They receive all incoming notices pertaining to upcoming events and it is up to them to get the word out to their members.

 

Any inter-patrol information is passed between PL's.

 

Adults are notified of any needs such as rides, etc. after the patrols make their decisions on activities.

 

Boys know the standard meeting is always Tuesday, whenever there's a 5th Tuesday in the month it is a COH.  Other than that all other planning is done by patrols.

Stosh,

I have to tell you, I really don't know of any troops around here that are as boy-led as your troop is.  I like to think that my troop when I was involved the first time was pretty well boy-led and patrol based (and it was compared to what it is now), but I was never to the point that you are.  And in all the discussions I have had at RT and at Klondikes and Camporees, I haven't seen or heard troops as boy-led as yours.  I hope you take that as a compliment because I think for the most part that is the way scouts is meant to be, I just don't think most troops are.

When I was SM for my troop before, I had a great group of parents that volunteered without being badgered.  We had more than enough parents that would be willing to go on campouts.  Since I have stepped back in I have noticed it is harder to find people to volunteer.  We get a lot that volunteer for the background things, COH refreshments, committee secretary, etc, but for the last two campouts it has been the same three leaders going and two of us didn't have boys on the campout.

I can see that this might be my biggest challenge going forward. There are some things that haven't been done since I left that I think helped recruit parents better, so maybe that will help, but I'm not sure.

I would think the older boys would tire of T-FC competitive skill training sometime after say about 3 years.  Then if nothing else is being offered, sports sounds nice as would just about any other program out there more designed age appropriately.

 

I'm with Bad Wolf on this.  The reason older boys don't hang around is because most troops never mature much beyond FC level activities, summer camp at council camps and MB's.  We've been there done that and at 15-16 it's time to leave.

Stosh,

I would agree on most camporees, but the older scouts in my troop absolutely love the Klondike Derby.  In a lot of cases, it is one of the few campouts that they will make the time to go to.  The boys are very competitive and as they got older, they learned from the older scouts how important it was to them and that "tradition" passed from year to year.  I could be wrong, but I think it has to do with getting out in the cold weather (and northern Ohio has some pretty cold weather) as to why Klondike is so popular but the fall camporee isn't.  We occasionally go to our district camporee, but when we leave it up to the boys, most years they choose not to go.  We sometimes get grief from our district, but it's the boys' decision not ours.  On the other hand, I think we would have a revolt if we decided not to do Klondike.

I'd have killed to have a den chief.   Our associated Troop couldn't or wouldn't provide one for whatever reason and the Cub Master didn't want to go outside that troop for political reasons I really didn't care about. 

And we can't get our associated pack or other packs in the area to return our calls about providing them!

The mess hall at our local council camp snatches the hats off anyone entering wearing one.  I normally wear a full uniform (including hat) all during summer camp except for showers, sleeping and swimming.  Well, they took my hat and hung it up in the rafters and after the meal boys that want there hats back have to sing for them.  Usually there are a lot of boys that forget so no one boy is singled out to sing.  Well I went up there and asked for my hat back, they said I had to sing for it.  I said, I came into the dining hall in full uniform, is it camp policy to encourage improper uniforms?  He conceded no, that's not what is expected.  I said someone should sing to get my hat back, and it's probably the gentleman at the door that took it should sing to get it back.  He did after the entire mess hall cheered him on!  

 

I had another camp that called out my boys at flags for wearing their hats (Expedition style, not baseball style).  It's really surprising how embarrassed the council staff can get when they have these kinda stupid rules that run counter to proper scouting.  My SPL marched the troop back to camp one morning because when they got to flags they were told this was a non-uniform day at camp and we weren't dressed properly.  Boys went back to camp and from then on did their own flag ceremony each morning and evening.

 

 

Ours does the same thing.  So, not only if you leave something behind, if they take something from you you have to do something like "Kissing the Moose" in front of the entire dining hall.  Again, very mixed messages by scouting.  And all in the name of tradition.

We used to make scouts (or adults) sing for their stuff if they left it behind, but we don't anymore.  However, at our summer camp, if you leave something behind in the dining hall (or various other things, like it's your birthday) you are supposed to "Kiss the Moose" or do some other similar thing to one of the other items hanging around the dining hall during a meal.  It is supposed to be all in good fun, but I have seen kids get really embarrassed about having to do that.  And this is a council run summer camp that does this.  So it sounds like there are inconsistencies on this topic across scouting, shocking I know!

My son in 3rd grade last year had significantly more homework than I did in High School..... 

I don't disagree with your point (re. maturity level), BUT I would say that kids even 3rd-4th grade could benefit from good time management training.... especially in this day and age with so many controlled activities..... school, sports, band, scouts.... although it's not used for anything more than a homework agenda, they issue what amounts to a daytimer calendar to elementary school kids at our school!

That is a very good point.  My kids had agendas, too, with no training on how to use them.  Maybe the time management piece is valid but all the budgeting and financial information to me seems a little more geared towards older kids.

 

Ummm....

 

 

I've been the Tiger Cub Den Leader for eight years now.

 

The advantages are just as you describe.   When I find an excellent event or activity,  I add it to the ones I recycle to a new group each year.

 

That works great.

 

But I still have a heavy amount of turnover.  Probably too many meetings for a lot of parents to be interested in attending.

God bless you! You have to have a tremendous amount of patience to deal with 1st graders all the time for 8 straight years.  I have a friend of mine that was Cubmaster for a long time after his son moved to Boy Scouts.  Just the hour I spend at Blue and Golds for crossover ceremonies drives me crazy with all that chaos and running around of little kids  .

This might be a bit off topic but I am interested in this. I have a problem with POR's in general, for older scouts. Shouldn't they just be expected to help out with the program? If they have a POR then fine but that's such a short period. I despise the attitude of I don't need the POR so I don't have to help out. I'd like to ask every scout coming in for a SMC for a higher rank what he's done to help the troop. It would be great to see him pull out a list of things he's done beyond what the POR requires. Helped run an event, taught younger scouts some skills, mc'd a camp fire. I'd like to see them do something once a month. It doesn't have to be a lot. This falls under scout spirit. Is this OK to do?

Herein lies the real issue.  Bobby is a Star scout and needs a PoR for advancement, so he becomes the troop historian because he needs the position.  He doesn't really go on many campouts at all and never brings a camera with him when he does.  Tommy is a Second Class Scout and also would like to be the historian because he really enjoys photography and he goes on most of the campouts and he usually takes a lot of pictures when he goes on the campout.  In our troop we elect positions (I know that's not 100% correct but it's better than the SM picking ), in other troops the SPL or SM (in an adult-led troop) picks the positions.

I have seen Bobby get the position because either the scouts, or more likely the SPL or SM, talk about how he needs the position and Tommy will have plenty of opportunity since he doesn't need the PoR for advancement.  I'm not saying that this happens in most troops, but I think this happens a lot that the "PoR" is only meant for advancement in a lot of cases.  Now, when I was SM I would counsel the boys on the meaning of the positions and if Tommy was really the one taking the pictures and going on campouts, I would have the conversation with Bobby that he needed to step up and if he didn't then I would give the credit to Bobby as part of Scout Spirit.  However, I don't know how often that happens.

And, oh by the way, if Bobby doesn't get that position initially, then I have had parents come up to me as SM and ask me why he didn't get it because he NEEDS it.  I would tell them the same thing I told the scouts, but that would fall on deaf ears.

How do Councils and Districts get away with it?  I know it's convenient to blame the parents because the parents insist on these kinds of opportunities for the boys, but I don't blame the parents.  I blame the volunteers that agree to act as MBC's at these events (looking at you Torchwood    ).  If those volunteers would follow Nancy Reagan's advice from the 1980's and just say no, then these events wouldn't taking place at all.  The problem is, of course, that many of these volunteers are also parents that want these kinds of events so that their sons can earn merit badges quickly and conveniently. 

I think you have to blame the parents to some degree.  The issue with the MB Counselors is that I know I have been harassed and harassed by my District Advancement person to volunteer.  I have yet to do so, but I'm sure I have made no friends because of that.  I do blame the MBCs that volunteer and then do a crappy job of rubber stamping (to quote Torchwood) a blue card, which I know has been done before.  I have to admit my younger son went to one of these because when he was younger my wife kind of pushed him to sign up.  Once I saw what was done at these things, I told my wife that I didn't think that was the best way for him to earn hi MBs and she backed off.  There have been MB Counselors from our troop who volunteered once and wouldn't again because of the grief they got when little Johnny couldn't earn their entire badge at the MB Midway.  These guys were sticklers from making sure the boys knew what they had to know before they got it signed off.  Someone actually couldn't understand why they couldn't earn the Cycling MB at the MB Midway.  They didn't look at the requirements close enough to notice that you actually had to take cycling trips to earn it!

While my first thought was that the 20 days camping per rank was overly tough, I looked at troop records, and realized that the boys that I think really deserve to get Eagle (due to their outdoor skills, leadership and scout spirit) are right on track with that.  The future Paper Eagles wouldn't. I wish that my troop didn't produce paper Eagles, but a few have gotten by. 

I'd have to check records, but that is probably true in my troop as well.

The point I was going for is to make the scouting journey something serious, something that the boy needs a challenge to so that when that Eagle is presented, he knows it is something that he had to dig a bit to accomplish, not just show up with mom and dad and the lawyer and have it presented.

 

Maybe we ought to have different levels of Eagles

 

1 Honorary Eagles (for the helicopter parents)

2 Paper Eagles 

3 STEM Eagles

4 Real Eagles

 

Personally I would like it to stay a truly Real Eagle program of some worth to the boys.  

You and I are in total agreement on this (assuming the sarcasm for your levels of Eagles ).  

Stosh, not disagreeing with you overall on your initial thoughts, and, in fact, I strongly agree with having a camping requirement.  I am just making a point that I think 20 nights per rank would be especially challenging.  Yes, as they get older they need to manage their time better and the more camping they do also continues to build on their leadership skills as well, but I think you can get similar results with 10 camping nights per rank.  Sure some boys that do High Adventure (heck, Philmont alone could get you the majority of the nights camping at 20) could make it easier, but then you have cost issues on some of those campouts.

I have had a person make Eagle Scout before they got into HS.  I take that on me as he got through the program (parent pushed) and made it all the way while I was SM.  That was one Eagle on my watch that I regret.  The only other one was someone that I sent on to the district for the EBOR, because I didn't want the threat of a lawsuit by the parents (they were always threatening things like that) on me or the COR, so I let the district advancement folks, who were aware of issues, make the up or down call on that.  They made the call and passed him on his EBOR.  Those two Eagles for obviously different reasons are the only two that I can honestly say, if I had to do over, I wouldn't have passed along.

So I definitely get your concerns and share them.

My issue on the signing of MB Blue Cards is that we have parents (both currently and in the past) that have somehow gotten a hold of blue cards and had their boys start merit badges without ever discussing with the SM.  When the parents do that it circumvents troop leadership (both boys and adults) and it makes scouts less fun for their sons.  How much fun can it be with your parents making you do so many merit badges every month.

When I was SM, I would sign all of the blue cards and have conversations with scouts on those that I had potential concerns with (such as a first year scout taking Personal Management) because I felt that they wouldn't really get what was intended out of the merit badge.  (Seriously, how much is a 5th or 6th grader going to get out of budgeting and time management and some of the other items in that MB)  However, I wouldn't not sign the blue card, although after discussion the boys (and/or their parents) might decide to take a different one.

In our unit the SM monitors the POR activity. The Scribe notes attendance. The SPL manages what events they attend. Each month if we don't see he leaders the SM take to them. If by the midpoint of the six month term they are below the objectives for that role there's an SMC to give them one last chance. If they still don't step up they are removed and no credit given.

Mozart, thanks for the ideas.  I will try and incorporate this in our process for next year.

Interesting thoughts Stosh.  I think it would keep older scouts involved longer.  I think there might be issues with the 20 nights of camping as boys get older especially as they get jobs and more involved in HS activities, so I think there should be some camping requirement but 20 nights at each rank might be tough.

We do have some of the same issues with boys being fairly uninvolved for a while and then deciding (in most cases with parents' persuasion) that, hey, I think I want to get Eagle!

That's an issue in our troop as well in that guys serve their PoR for their time and in some cases do nothing.  For instance, our Historian and Quartermaster are older kids who rarely camp anymore.  Maybe the QM can get away with that if they do other things with our shed and trailer, but how is an historian supposed to document campouts with pictures and descriptions if he rarely goes?  One thing that I am going to do after I step back in as SM is help the boys understand what the positions entail and show them specifically what is required for each position.  I am not sure that has been done recently.