oldsm

Eamonn, may I gently point out that no one hit the lad? He was riding on a float in a parade, and fell off the side in such a manner that the wheels of the float (a flatbed trailer) ran over him. I doubt that alcohol was involved. It appears (this is speculation based on the picture and the new coverage) that there was nothing for an energetic youngster to hang on to. Very sad - but let's be careful not to intimate that the usual litany of culprits (fatigue, alcohol, drugs, excessive speed, etc.) were responsible. Sorry for ranting. I agree that the driver needs our prayers. So, too, do those who witnessed the accident and those who knew him and were his friends.(This message has been edited by oldsm)

The job that pays the bills: network admin for well-known copier/printer company (32 years). Previous positions in the firm included sales, service, remanufacturing management, technical writing/editing (15 years), and marketing. The 2nd job: organist and director of music at a church (21 years). The 3rd job: SM of a local troop of enthusiastic boys. Previously CM of one of the feeder packs. Oldest son just made Eagle last week, 2nd son is looking for his ESLSP. Previous job: supervisor of merchandise processing at a department store chain warehouse (back in the dark ages). Before that: greeting card sales, newspaper route (on foot). Most unusual previous job: organist at a maximum security penitentiary for 2 years during college. (No, I was NOT an inmate.)(This message has been edited by oldsm)

Here's a link to the Daniel Webster Council's website: http://www.dwcbsa.org/ Thanks for the information, Local.

I believe that the statement "The neckerchief is optional to the troop" means that it is up to the troop which neckerchief they want to wear: the official BS neckerchief, or a custom one. I don't think it means that the presence of a neckerchief is optional. Does anyone know definitively?

The quote was not intended to beat up anyone, least of all the leaders involved in this tragedy. The purpose was to bring to light that the rules BSA imposes in the G2SS, which we sometimes think of as being picayne or over-reaching, are there for a reason. Until I was presented with a parade float situation back in my cub scout leader days, I was unaware that BSA had specific regs covering floats. Who would have guessed? Also, my last post was to point out that the restriction in Chapter 12 is not to final statement; it is tempered by the float statement in Chapter 9. Otherwise, you could not have any scouts on floats or hayrides. How long has it been since any of us have read the entire G2SS? Might be worth rereading.

Captain Ron, The adult leader Uniform Inspection Form (#34284) states: Neckwear. Olive leaders tie or Cub Scout or Boy Scout bolo tie with tan shirt. Neckerchief, if applicable, is worn over the turned-under collar or under the open collar. Neckwear is not required with the short-sleeve shirt worn open at the neck. http://www.scouting.org/forms/34284.pdf This means that you MAY wear a necktie with the s/s shirt, but neckwear is not required with it. I'll let someone else address the venturing shirt (although I don't think it's permitted).

John-in-KC quotes the G2SS, Chapter 12 (Transportation). However, the same document in Chapter 9 (Sports & Activities) states: Parade Floats and Hayrides The BSA rule prohibiting the transportation of passengers in the backs of trucks or on trailers may be tempered for parade floats or hayrides, provided that the following points are strictly followed to prevent injuries: 1. Transportation to and from the parade or hayride site is not allowed on the truck or trailer. 2. Those persons riding, whether seated or standing, must be able to hold on to something stationary. 3. Legs should not hang over the side. 4. Flashing lights must illuminate a vehicle used for a hayride after dark, or the vehicle must be followed by a vehicle with flashing lights. http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss09.html#i Note especially item 2. That seems to have been ignored based on my viewing of the picture. Certainly some sort of railing could have been constructed. I also wonder how likely an active cub scout is to observe #3... We are all helping to spread the word by discussing this item on the forum.

I just checked the uniform inspection forms. Seems that boys are to wear a neckerchief (inspection form #34283). Adult males are to wear either a neckerchief or a bolo (CS or BS), although adults are not required to wear either if the SHORT SLEEVE shirt is worn open at the collar (inspection form #34284). The neckerchief is entirely optional for female leaders. There is no bolo option (inspection form #34281A). Nothing says WHICH neckerchief is to be worn, so custom ones apparently are OK. I interpret this to mean that neckerchiefs are required for boys, optional for adult males with short-sleeve shirts, and required with long-sleeve shirts. Olive green tie is OK for adults, too, with the LS shirt. Females get off easy - sort of like the more lax "business casual" options available in the business work. Wear the whole uniform, or none of it. :-)

http://www.unionleader.com/article.aspx?articleId=f0031cad-63a6-48fe-acea- 099780d17651&headline=Parade+death+stuns+Scouts%2c+school PORTSMOUTH A 9-year-old Cub Scout was killed Saturday night when he fell off a float during the city's annual Christmas parade. Authorities say the boy, identified by Scout leaders and others as Thomas Fogarty, of Greenland, was run over after falling off a trailer adorned with giant cereal boxes. The Greenland Central School third-grader was pronounced dead at Portsmouth Regional Hospital, police said. "It goes without saying this is a terrible tragedy," said Portsmouth Police Chief Michael Magnant. "As a police department, as a community, our hearts are broken." Fogarty was a member of Cub Scout Pack 166 out of Greenland. As many as 15 or 20 other Scouts, all between 8 and 11 years old, were on the trailer when Fogarty fell, according to police. Deadly float fall (AP) The Boy Scouts Pack 166 float is seen in Market Square in Portsmouth on Saturday after a fatal accident in which a 9-year old boy died after behind run over by the trailer during a holiday parade. (AP) Witnesses offered conflicting accounts of the fall, according to Mike Kaufman, an executive with the Daniel Webster Council. It was not clear whether the boy was sitting on the edge of the float or if he was walking beside the float, Kaufman said. "It didn't seem like there was any consensus as to exactly what happened," he said. Jeff Latimer, a Rye Scout master who was standing on the float behind Fogarty's, said one witness recalled hearing a scream. On Latimer's float, a child yelled, "Somebody just got run over." The parade came to a standstill as emergency responders raced to treat the boy. "As we say, a Scout is a brother to every other Scout," Latimer said last night. "We certainly feel the loss of a brother Scout." The parade eventually proceeded with Pack 166's float in tow. Deborah Lielasus Tombleson, executive director of the Prescott Park Arts Festival, said her production manager and police made the decision to continue. "It probably would have been harder on everybody to have shut it down at that point," she said. Tombleson said her organization is "deeply saddened." "Our hearts go out to the family," she said. Portsmouth Police Department's accident investigation team and the Rockingham County Attorney's Office were investigating the accident yesterday. Police refused to identify the driver. A crisis meeting was held at Central School in Greenland yesterday. Grief counselors will be there today, and resources will be offered to parents in the tight-knit community, said Cheryl Van Allen, a vice president of the Greenland Parent Organization. "People are really a mess," said Van Allen. "These kids were all in Scouts together." George Cushing, superintendent of the school district that includes Greenland, said police asked school officials not to talk publicly about the boy's death until today. Fogarty's fall occurred one day after a similar incident in Freeport, Maine. There, a 3-year-old girl was seriously injured Friday when she fell from a parade float and was run over by the rear wheels of the trailer's dual axle. She was being treated at Maine Medical Center. Police are urging anyone who witnessed the accident in Portsmouth, or who has video or photos of the parade route at Islington and Columbia (near The Bread Box or Dunkin' Donuts) to call Lt. Rod McQuate at 610-7531 or Crimestoppers at 427-1199. Union Leader Staff Writer Riley Yates and The Associated Press contributed to this report. ================== The Union Leader link shows a picture of the float. Sadly, there is no visible item for young hands to hold onto... From the G2SS: The BSA rule prohibiting the transportation of passengers in the backs of trucks or on trailers may be tempered for parade floats or hayrides, provided that the following points are strictly followed to prevent injuries: 1. Transportation to and from the parade or hayride site is not allowed on the truck or trailer. 2. Those persons riding, whether seated or standing, must be able to hold on to something stationary. 3. Legs should not hang over the side. 4. Flashing lights must illuminate a vehicle used for a hayride after dark, or the vehicle must be followed by a vehicle with flashing lights. My condolences to the family and to all those who are in any way involved with this tragedy.

All of our scouts wear our custom troop neckerchief - solid color fabric with an embroidered troop patch sewn on. This is considered standard for all boys. they use either the official slide or one that they have made themselves - a bit of interesting individuality. Adults wear official bolos. At the old JLT camp, the boys made JLT bolos. Those who made them got to wear those as an indicator of the extra training that they had received. Although at COHs and formal events they wear the troop neckerchier.

What a sensitive article. I drove through Franklin on Labor Day weekend. Having been there made this whole thing seem somehow more real to me when I first read about it. My prayers are with the families who have lost so much. This article should become required reading for all new leader training courses. We pay lip service to vehicle safety and what BSA regs are. This account most definitely drives home the impact on the families who entrust their sons to us. In a time when we are bombarded constantly with headline reports about accidents and various crimes, the lasting effects are almost never explored. Yet I believe that the long-term repercussions are the most significant. I read this article with tears in my eyes - probably more than when I read the original reports.

Here's another possibility if you have wheels. The National Cryptologic Museum is fascinating. It traces codes, intelligence, and spying from early days right up to the present. The museum is located on the grounds of Fort Meade, home to the NSA (National Security Agency) - "spy HQ". It's about halfway between Washington and Baltimore on MD295. You can visit self-guided or let a docent guide you. Our docent was the museum curator. He was fascinating and engaging and obviously loves what he does. Great perspectives. There is an Enigma machine (WWII German coding device) that you can actually try out. For the mechanically inclined (think boys), there's also a U.S. Navy Cryptanalytic Bombe - the device that was used to decode the Enigma crypto. This is a small museum with a very limited gift shop (yay!) and no food service. My boys enjoyed it. I would have liked to spend more time. Allow at least 2 hours (1 hour for the tour). Free. See their website: http://www.nsa.gov/museum/index.cfm

Our troop has decided that thay want to do cabin camping at a local council camp in January. That means heat, lights, and running water - but still use the latrine outside. The guys need some new ideas for activities. Not card playing or board games. The outdoors stuff. There might or might not be snow, or ice, or rain, or mud. What would your troop plan for activities in this kind of situation?

We use a 2-pronged approach. We usually don't get 100% participation from all the Webelos families at both, but we usually get everyone to attend at least one. That gives us two chances to get our message across. The first approach is to schedule one of our monthly outdoors events as a day hike. We find a relatively challenging trail that the cubs have not been on and take them (and their parents) there. We try to find one that has multiple alternatives so that we can adjust the length of the hike depending upon the endurance and enthusiasm. We make sure that the cubs carry their own backpacks (a school backpack) with water, their mess kit (most everyone has one), poncho, etc. The troop hikes with full packs (sans tents). The troop helps the cubs prepare backpack-style lunch on the trail. We also make sure that the cubs help carry the lunch. We always have topo maps of the area we're hiking, along with compasses. What the cubs experience: the adventure of a trail that is far more interesting than "hike around your community" or "follow a bike trail". Backpacking stoves are always a hit. Map and compass is always fun - even learning to follow a blazed trail. We get to teach and practice hiking etiquette and safety, maybe string a rope to help in steep sections, and practice LNT. There's good bonding that occurs between the troop and the cubs - everyone benefits from the personal association. The boys handle all of the visible arrangements: greeting cubs, assigning cubs to transportation, pairing each cub with 1 or 2 boy scouts, leading the hike, preparing lunch, etc. The adults (troop and cubs) always bring up the rear. This gives us a chance to chat with the parents on an adult level, and the parents get to observe the boys' interactions. This has proven to be a "winner". The second prong is to invite the cubs and their parents to a TYPICAL troop meeting - NOT a COH (boring to a cub - no "hands-on"). After the opening ceremony, an ASM and I take the parents to another meeting room where we can discuss the ins and outs of pack vs. troop, our troop philosophies and practices, finances, uniforms (we are 100%), organization, advancement, parental involvement, etc. Meanwhile, the cubs are being engaged in a fun meeting without parental oversight (other than a monitoring by 2 or 3 ASMs). This is not a "dumbed-down" meeting, but one that will be accessible to the cubs while also permitting the troop to further their own skills. We return the parents to the boys' meeting in time for the closing circle. The smiles on the cubs' faces tell a lot. This works for us. Your mileage may vary.

"...a 13 year old should not be expected to perform at the same level as the 17 year old ..." Let me play devil's advocate for a moment. The CS motto is "Do Your Best". The BS motto is "Be Prepared", which BP explained as "prepared for any old thing". Why should we not expect EVERY Eagle candidate to prepare and perform at the [same] Eagle level? Given some of the arguments that have been offered above, it seems that we should expect no less of a 13-year-old's Eagle project than we would of a 17-year-old's. Seems like maybe having a lower standard sends the message that a scout should hurry up and get his Eagle while he's still young. Maybe expecting a high calibre project and report would encourage boys to get more out of scouting than just seeing how quickly they can make the top rank.

Eagledad, you are of course correct with the use of acetone instead of alcohol. And yes, I recall the importance of the proportion. It's all coming back, now. Thanks for checking and coming up with the correct information. I like the hiking stave idea.

I'd thought about the Newseum. I really liked it in its original location in Arlington VA, but I suppose the move will be good - more room and a more tourist-friendly location (on Pennsylvania Avenue between the White House and the Capitol, adjacent to the Smithsonian museums on the Mall. With that location, it will definitely get more traffic. Sigh... Among the things I remember there are being able to do your own green-screen news "broadcast", listen/watch actual broadcast clips from significant events during our history, an eye-opening memorial to journalists who lost their lives covering newsworthy events, and -- the piece de resistance -- a section of the Berlin Wall that you could actually touch. I'll definitely go visit its new home. The Newseum might not be the best "attraction" for a first visit to DC, but it could certainly tie in with the Citizenship and Communications MBs. Check out their website www.newseum.org.

LadyJay, welcome to the world of Boy Scouting. Your son will find a lot of differences from his Cub Scouting experience. This is a tough situation. I think that the adult leader who told you to talk to the SPL was wrong. The matter should have been referred to the Scoutmaster to deal with as he saw fit. His job is to coach and guide the SPL, rank notwithstanding. Congratulations on helping your son wear the uniform correctly. He'll set an excellent example for the others. Be careful not to be overprotective of your son. You run the risk of becoming a meddlesome parent. By all means observe, but don't sweat the small stuff. Pick the battles, so to speak, and share your concerns with the adult leadership. If the SM or his assistants don't at least give you some sense that they "hear" you, you might take your concerns to the troop committee. But I'd wait a while and see how things develop. Every troop has its own "culture" that needs to be assimilated before newcomers feel that they have ownership. And yes, your son needs to learn that life is not always fair. In my opinion, the earlier that lesson is learned, the more resilient and tolerant a boy will be. Just my .02.

The Spy Museum is good for one visit. My 2nd visit was boring. The lines are long and you can be subject to 2-hour waits to get in. It's very crowded. If you can take the time to go through slowly, READ the exhibits and discuss them with other people, it can be very educational. Some of it is just plain entertaining. (How many kids get to see a "real" James Bond car?) Take some time at the cryptography and WW1/WW2 areas. The boys should have some appreciation for those wars so that they can put spying into context. The National Air & Space Museum is a top draw in DC. It's always crowded. It's also huge. It will be a challenge to keep people together. I suggest you let the boys go using the buddy system and have periodic check-ins (that's what my kids' school groups have done). The IMAX is OK, depending upon what they're showing. I didn't think too much of their planetarium program the one time I was paid for it. I wholeheartedly agree with Hunt's assessment of the Udvar-Hazy Air & Space Annex adjacent to Dulles airport. It is not nearly so crowded and has a lot of very fascinating stuff in it. You can really get "up close and personal" with it. Be sure to have the boys READ the placards on the exhibits. I've been there once and can't wait to go back. My boys wheeled my elderly mother-in-law through the place and read all the placards to her. They learned an awful lot in the process. And many of the things on display were a trip down memory lane for me. This is a museum done right. The American Indian Museum is an absolute bust in my opinion. It is WAY too crowded (you almost can't move). I appreciate that they tried to recreate the intimacy of space inside typical dwellings, but there is just too much traffic for the space. A real safety hazard, I think. On top of that, there does not seem to be any significant theme tying exhibits together. It's too "commercialized". For example, it was funded largely by casino-owning tribes, and that becomes apparent. There is almost nothing hands-on or interactive, and it's so noisy that you can't hear yourself think. The cafeteria is way too small for the crowds, too. I got nothing out of this museum. Maybe if the crowds die down in about 20 years... A better choice would be the American History Museum a few blocks away. Unfortunately it is closed for renovations until sometime in 2008. Some of their treasures (Dorothy's red slippers) are being displayed at the Air & Space Museum, which will only make it more crowded. Another possibility, especially if you're interested in cultures, is the National Geographic Museum, a few blocks north of the White House. It's not big and probably doesn't even register on most people's radar, but it's very good. They have some permanent exhibits and periodically change their "feature" exhibit. When I was there, the feature was on Mongolia. They even had a real-life Mongolian contortionist. Fascinating.

I did this a number of years ago in my Cub days. The neckerchief has to be only the neckerchief - remove any patches (like the Webelos emblem), which will burn. Be sure to use only the official neckerchief made of a cotton/polyester blend. Anything that's 100% cotton, including the Webelos patch) will most certainly burn. Stretch the neckerchief across a metal frame (make one out of wire hangers) so that it's spread out flat. You can attach it with safety pins. Be sure that you have a "handle" that will keep your hands away from the flame. If I recall, the mixture to dip it in is a 50/50 mix of isopropyl alcohol and water. The idea is that the alcohol burns, but the water keeps the fabric from igniting before the alcohol burns off. When you dip the neckerchief, be sure that it ALL gets wet. Then light it quickly before the alcohol evaporates. BE SURE TO HAVE A FIRE EXTINGUISHER HANDY - and preferably someone to use it! Practice, practice, practice! I can't over-emphasize this. I thought I had it perfected. It worked well when I practiced. When I "performed", Murphy's Law came into play. The neckerchief burned. My boys still don't let me forget that one!

John-in-KC, I agree that the DAC should have SOME degree of influence. After all, that's what we expect from MBC's, no? To my way of thinking, the vote of no-confidence is a rather nuclear approach. I don't think it will do anyone much good. And I certainly don't have time to sit on the Advancement Committee. I'm busy enough with my troop. The DAC can be a rather insistent and abrasive person. But I think I have developed a pretty decent working relationship with him. I'd like not to damage that. What I'm looking for is reactions to the situation that exists to help me find ways to gently influence what needs to be influenced, and not influence those things that should be left alone.

Lisabob, I'm pretty much with you on this. The DAC has addressed the quality issues with scoutmasters at two RT's that I can recall. That's when he handed out "the list" of what he expects. (I did have to chuckle when I found a number of errors in his list: lack of parallelism, inconsistent "voice" and structure...and a typo!) I guess the attempts to work through SM's has not worked because for next month's RT, they are inviting all boys who are approaching Eagle projects to come and get personal direction. As much as we would like to be believe that the whole country is computer-equipped, that is not the case. My daughter teaches school in North Carolina in a small school where about 70% of the children are below the poverty level. NONE of the kids have a computer at home, and there is no library around that they can go to. It changed how she assigns homework! These are kids whose idea of going away for summer vacation is "spending a week at a lake 5 miles from home". And, not everyone has Word at home (at least not legitimate, non-pirated copies). The retail cost of MS Office is prohibitive for many people ($400 for the Standard Edition); even Word by itself is overpriced ($230). There are some other alternatives (WordPerfect and the ubiquitous WordPad come to mind), but they won't convert the .doc workbook properly. There is the free open-source program OpenOffice.org Writer. Most people don't know about it and many are loathe to try open-source (if they even know what it is). I tried it, and it does not convert the .doc file very well (many formatting issues). I did just notice on the NESA site that it states "You should print, type or write legibly using black or blue ink. You may add as many pages as needed to thoroughly complete the workbook". The DAC has stated that the workbook should be used like a lab workbook in school - sort of like a vehicle to gather notes and serve as a rough draft, after which everything should be written up nice and neat. Any thoughts about the Council Advancement Committee's added requirements?

Much time has been spent on this forum debating what constitutes adding to requirements for rank advancement and merit badge completion. I don't want to rehash that. But I am curious about the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project workbook requirements. In my district, the Advancement Chair has been trying to improve the quality of work submitted for Eagle projects. While I believe his goal is laudable, I wonder if it places an undue burden on the candidate scouts. For example, the DAC has published a lengthy list of what needs to be included in the proposal and the writeup for the completed project. He expects everything to be typewritten, without spelling errors, with proper grammer, subject/verb agreement, rigid adherence to captioning and numbering of pictures (and reference to each in the text), etc. There had better be a spreadsheet showing the anticipated cost of materials, the actual costs, and the fair market value of donated materials so that a "project value" can be determined. The DAC is a retired college professor, and I think his background to some extent influences what he wants. There are some problems doing everything on computer. Sure, you can download a .doc version of the workbook, but you have to have Microsoft Word in order to use it. The RTF version does not yield the same appearance as the printed book and can be frustrating to work with. The PDF version is useful only if you can't get a printed book (you effectively print it yourself, with no effective gain in usability). And not every scout has access to a computer! Part of the DAC's reasoning is that Eagle is supposed to represent the very best that Scouting produces; therefore, the project proposals and writeups should be of the very best quality. I have heard from several other SM's that the DAC frequently returns proposals for grammatical and spelling corrections. (My son's was noted with 3 spelling errors, but the project was approved anyway -- corrections were made in the final report. Whew!) Not every Scout is college material - not even all of the Eagles. Some just aren't interested, some have other interests. And I'll bet that a lot don't have particularly good writing skills. In addition, our Council Advancement Committee now requires contemporaneous notes made "as your project progresses, including dates worked, your time spent, and the names of those assisting you and their time spent. Use one or more pages as needed for these notes and summarize notes in your final project report. Be sure to include your project planning activities and team training, if applicable." To my way of thinking, these are all adding to the requirments. By counseling and encouraging a scout as to what makes a good project proposal and report, we would be serving in very much the same manner that an MBC does in sharing personal knowledge of a subject, encouraging discovery, etc., without adding to requirements. But when we put these "requirements" in writing, and they don't come from National, it seems to me that we are imposing additional requirements on boys preparing for Eagle. In case you're wondering, this is not about my son! He just had his writeup approved, and the DAC wants to use it as an example of "how to do it". My son isn't the best writer (he's fair in that department), but I spent 15 years doing technical documentation writing and editing. I guided my son through several revisions and edits before he submitted his writeup. Not everyone has their own personal editor available, and not every high school teaches college-level writing skills (witness the remedial classes so often required of college freshmen). I am concerned about those still coming up through the ranks. I'm curious as to what others think about this. Is this common practice in other councils/districts? Is there something from National that hasn't made it into print yet?

In the interest of accuracy, let's use the correct nomenclature. Epaulets are the parts of the tan or green shirt that are permanently attached (sewn) at the shoulder seam and button near the collar. The [insert color] "ribbons" that go on the epaulets (to denote the branch of scouting) are called shoulder loops. There are no red epaulets or gray tabs. But we all knew that already, didn't we?(This message has been edited by oldsm)

Maybe the concern is that they won't have enough of them. What if there's only one that is supposed to be transported to various events, and someone forgets to take it. Would there be a lawsuit because they own one but it wasn't available? I don't know exactly how they work. Do they have to be plugged in to keep batteries charged (while in storage between events)? A "dead" AED isn't going to be very useful. How about an AED to be kept at each council camp? Where's it going to be located? In the health lodge, locked up where you you can't get it before finding the campmaster or ranger to let you it, then get it to the person who needs it - probably too late. How well were the need AND the logistics of its handling worked out before an AED was settled on as the "item du jour"? Methinks that some additional communication and perhaps some buttonholing of key council staff needs to occur. Education needs to be a big part of this.