ntrog8r
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Posts posted by ntrog8r
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People shut down in the summer?
We faced this with a troop where everyone bridged together from Webelos. So the Cub Scout thing played a part as did the, "We all need a break" thing. We did not shut down and now, based on what I hear from the SM of that troop, theya re busier than ever in the summers! Scouts are available all day, the hard part should be keeping with them. Of course, Patrol hiking and camping and service projects can all be done without us.
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Back when I was a SM whenever new/prospective parents asked about our advancement program/policies/etc I explained we didn't have one. We discussed the goals (aims) of Scouting and then reviewed the methods (advancement is a method). I let them know about how long the average Scout took to achieve 1st Class, and that Eagle would come only to those who really wanted it and focussed on it for the long haul. In our troop, Eagle was never the goal, but often a result, of the program.
Interestingly, our troop always grew. But the parents who let their sons ask me questions and hang out with the Scouts were the ones that stayed. The parents that did all the questions themselves and kept their boy by their side usually left. We once had a Scout and his mother come in for a meeting - they were new in town. The Scout looked magnificent in his uniform and MB sash. He must have had every MB available. As was our custom, the SPL greeted the mom and I greeted the Scout then we intro'd to each other and the SPL invited him to join the meeting. Mom said she was there because she heard from her former SE, in a different state that we were a great troop - I have NO idea how any SE outside of our own Council would have known that - and wanted to know how quickly her son, a Life Scout, would complete his Eagle project and get his badge. I told her I had no idea really,that we would support him in every way possible and as long as he stuck to it could happen. She expressed her surprise that I did not intend to tell him his project and work schedule, explained he was not very motivated and needed structure and a schedule to work from, and asked how I intended to make him finish his project. I called the Scout over, asked what he was thinking about for his project - he said he didn't care, he'd do "whatever I said he had to to get over with". After the Aims vs Methods talk, his momther took the Scout and left, telling me I needed to get my act together.
Moral of this story? Know what YOU and more importantly, in my thinking, YOUR SON are looking for in a troop. The shades of gray allow for you to and your family to find the place that's right for you. If you are not comfortable with the organization keep looking.
Questons I might ask?
> Who sits on the BofR, can I attend?
> Who signs off the requirements in the book?
> How are Eagle projects selected and approved?
> What happens in a Scoutmaster Conference?
> How often do you test for advancement?
Depending on what YOU are looking for, the answers you want to hear will vary. Some of the above would send me running depending on the answers. For example - the mother above was expecting me to assign an Eagle Project to her son. If a troop told me they "tested" for advancement, that would be a red flag and need some clarification - but it might be exactly someone else wants.
I wish you luck in finding the ideal (for you) troop. You will probably find a group that fits you both well - but not perfectly. We've had some really great experiences in Scouting - and a couple of bad ones. But the positive so outweighs the negative we barely remember those unless we try really hard!
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I'm 5'11", my son is is just over 6'1" tall and we've had no problems. If it makes a difference, we wear the "Centennial Boy Scout/Male Leader Cotton Rich Poplin Uniform Shirt".
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I'm not sure if you're asking for opinion or BSA policy but they already are...
From the membership application: "The Boy Scouts of America maintains that no member can grow into the best kind of citizen without recognizing an obligation to God and, therefore, recognizes the religious element in the training of the member, but it is absolutely nonsectarian in its attitude toward that religious training".
http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/28-406.pdf
Since the Brights share the philosophy of Naturalism, and more specifically metaphysical(or ontological) naturalism, and so are atheists.
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I think it happened in 1910, give or take two or three years
If you look at the old photos you will see LOTS of mixed uniforms, The obvious exception of course is nearly any official publication. Since Green Bars Troop 1, the most photographed troop in the history of BSA, was the model troop for all official pubs those pubs were filled with 100% uniformed Scouts. But press photos at the big events show Scouts not in 100% official attire. Maybe National should put greater emphasis on using only photos of Scouts in 100% uniforms but that is another discussion in itself.
> Military surplus. As some have already posted, the similarity to the Army uniform allowed many to fill in with military surplus. Something most here, I think, would cry foul over today. After all, the Insignia Guide clearly states the uniform will not look like its military and military cargo pants etc are usually frowned upon by those who are supporting uniforming. I myself do not agree with mixing uniforms.
> Sports uniforms. Though I have compared sports uniforming to Scout uniforming in the past myself I tend not to so much these days. They are similar in that both HAVE uniforms but it mostly ends there.
As far as the team providing uniforms, as some have posted WOW, never where weve lived. I bought my sons Little League uniform, track uniform, and tennis uniform. There was no rental or return program for these. This year I paid over $300 (not including shoes) for the two different tennis uniforms alone. I also provide the racket, dampener, etc. Safety equipment, such as batting helmets, and core group equipment, like bats, balls etc. were provided but never individual uniform pieces. Martial arts were the same group gear provided by the trainer, all individual gear supplied by the individual.
In sports, you wear your uniform every time you hit the field in an actual game. My son has never worn his game uniform at practice. Little League practice was whatever was comfortable and his cleats and glove. Tennis practice is shorts, t-shirt, sometimes a hat plus his tennis shoes and racket, track practice is comfortable running clothes and his track or road shoes. Martial arts (when we did traditional only) required the uniform every time we showed up. This is an exception, not the norm. But come GAME DAY, youre in uniform or you dont play. In Scouting, the uniform is not (at least usually) worn when hiking, backpacking, camping, etc. Many units put out NOT to wear the uniform during service projects, etc. The uniform, even in some 100% uniformed troops, is only worn to weekly meetings, motorized travel, and walking around neighborhoods fundraising. Is this stuff our game day? Parents DO spend money on stuff for their Scouts to participate though. Boots for hiking/backpacking, work gloves, cold weather gear, sleeping pads and bags, flashlights, pocketknives, socks, hats, camp cups, first aid kit/supplies, backpacks, etc. These clothes and this equipment DO add up. Parents usually find a way to make sure their Scout has whats needed to participate in Scoutings game days. Because without this gear the Scout cant. He CAN show up for a meeting without a full uniform.
I dont know that sports uniforms are cooler than Scout uniforms or not. I suspect if you talk to athletes who are on the team because they WANT to be, they wear the uniform fine. If you talk to those whose parents put them in the sport, they will NOT like wearing the uniform. Of course, in High School, this gets more complicated with the popularity of the sport/activity within the school as well.
> Emphasis. I agree that LEADER involvement is key. There are adult leaders in Scouting and so they play an important role in this and all other methods of Scouting. If we make the uniform important and wear it correctly ourselves and set the expectation that the Scouts will wear theirs correctly, the first step has been taken. Parents need to understand WHY the uniform is a Scouting method, how it helps, why it matters step 2 is now complete.
> The Scouts. Getting Scout buy in is the most important step. Boys and men WANT to belong to a group. We are geared to look for and join in with others. Boys and men also WANT to be a part of something grand and noble and filled with meaning just think about the movies we all like or look at the recruiting ads for the different services. If your unit fills your Scouts with PURPOSE and they have PRIDE in being identified with the troop, they will adopt the uniform, at least while surrounded with members of the group.
This might start with a class b uniform. We did this in a new unit starting in a lower income neighborhood. We decided up front to get the Scouts out of the city and into the outdoors ASAP. The uniform was pants and a troop shirt. We all wore the uniform to every outing and every meeting. The Scouts that stuck with us through first class were issued a uniform shirt by the troop (the SM paid) and the base set of patches (the troop paid). The class a shirt was only worn at meetings (required for PLC, optional for others), ceremonies, and fundraising. The troop shirt was worn at everything else. Over time this tradition ended because younger Scouts were not willing to wait to get the official shirt and were buying them on their own.
Another troop mixed economic status was kinda the same. It wasnt until we were at a summer camp and we all bought the camp t-shirt that uniforming went up. Since everybody had the camp t-shirt, we (meaning the ASM suggested it would be cool) all wore them to dinner one night. On the way someone started a cool chant with the troop number in it. Someone else pulled out Sharpie and we all wrote the (just discovered) troop nickname on the back of our shirts. For the rest of the week that was the troop uniform and after camp, everyone wanted to be in uniform official shirt or troop shirt depending on the occasion with pants, necker, etc.
>I swear Im done.
We all, myself included, get pretty worked up about uniforming. Im the first to say its a method equal all other methods (((prepared to be burned alive for comparing uniforming to Patrols))) and should be a part of any healthy unit. I agree there are fully uniformed Scouts that are terrors there also excellent Scout outdoorsmen who are terrors and Scouts in proper Patrols - camped the magical 300 feet apart - that are terrors. The uniform, like any lone method, does not a Scout make. All the methods together, applied consistently and with purpose, AIDS in developing character, citizenship, and personal fitness.
(This message has been edited by ntrog8r)
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Unfortunately it's gone, at least for now. It was a true wealth of information so hopefully it will reappear soon!
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A diploma is something you give yourself by completing someone else's known and established requirements.
An award is something you're given by others in recognition of your accomplishments; the requirements may be objective (and published) or subjective (and unknown).
Rank is positional and defines where you stand in relation to others in the same group.
Eagle is all of the above, but ultimately it is what you ARE. A reflecton of what you become after a journey. How the program is implemented may cause one or more of the above elements to appear larger than the others but an Eagle is judged on their decisions in life, not just skill/knowledge. That is why we are so disappointed when we here stories about bad decisions made by Eagles, but NHS members. Standards ARE high and they are for life.
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These are some great suggestions. A common theme seems to be discussion and interaction among the Scouters. Frankly, I think this might need to be directed or guided to keep conversations on track, relevant, and useful to all present. What do the rest of you think?
Should the groups be broken down by experience level, interest, other?
Thanks for all the feedback, keep it coming!
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The Guide to Safe Scouting reference for Family Camping and Pack Overnighters can be found here: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss03.aspx
Leadership (YP) requirements are here: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss01.aspx
The only complication really comes from the mixed genders. So, arrange the cabin sleeping area by family. If possible string up sheets/blankets to make separate cubbies for each family. If not possible, use the packs/bags to create a barrier between areas if appropriate and string off one area for changing clothes.
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You're in charge of the next Roundtable.
If there were ONE thing you've always wished they'd do - What is it? What training, activity, whatever have always wished they'd cover at Roundtable?
OR
What is the ONE BEST thing you've seen/experienced at Roundtable?
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Thanks for the updates; like John-in-KC, I need to ruminate for a bit. Though I'm always open to see things improve.
This is a great example of this forum's strengths. When I get back in town I'll need to ask around about these changes as well.
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Eamonn,
I'm pretty sure we agree. If the Council has specified a particular piece of headwear, it is the uniform hat and should be worn. However, the BSA gives a lot of leeway in (some) areas of uniforming. Troops can design their own neckerchief (or not wear one), wear unit t-shirts, choose from a variety of "centennial" shirts currently available, use a Bolo, select the official hat for formal occaisions, choose tehir belt (and buckle), etc. There are also all the optional pieces like Jac-shirts, nylon jackets, patch vests, patch blankets, MB sashes, et al.
When it comes to the "class A" uniform, it should be as complete and correct as possible. I'm a hat to sock kind of guy and even buy brown shoes to go with. Uniforming is a method of Scouting, and as important a method (in my opinion) as the Patrol. I myself always encourage proper uniforming. However...
Most of a Scout's time at the Jamboree does not require the class A uniform. Walking around, participating in all there is do, and seeing everything going on is generally done in a contingent t-shirt (and often hat) or other "class B" variant. I see nothing wrong with selecting a specific piece of headgear to equip the contingent. I would advise (and have) that the contingent pick a piece of headgear, just as they do shirts, to keep uniformity. The BSA, of course, also has alternate headgear for wear:
All of these could be worn as well.
The universal Hat Emblem I suggested is for use on BSA hats and comes for both youth: and adults: http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=GIFTS&c3=PINS&c4=&lv=3&item=50150.http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=GIFTS&c3=PINS&c4=&lv=3&item=50150
A less official (?) version can be bought as well:http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=CRAFTS&c3=LEATHER&c4=&lv=3&item=17061
In keeping with the Insignia Guide, the last option could NOT be worn on official BSA headgear.
I could not find any restriction on the type of headgear authorized for use in uniform. There regulations concerning when to wear official headgear. There, of course, are regulations and guidelines concerning use of badges, insignia, purpose of uniforming, etc. Headgear specific guidance is here: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/Media/InsigniaGuide/03.aspx
Anyway, I agree that when the class A uniform is being worn I would wear the Jambo hat with Jambo pins (only at the Jambo of course because pins can't be worn elsewhere). During the day, when wearing an activity or class B uniform option, I would think the contingent could select its own appropriate headgear for the Jambo.
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Having been in several districts and Councils over the years, I have seen one reason Troops (Scouts) don't participate in Camporees - adults.
>Adult Camporee staff plan Camporees based on things THEY think are fun - like Scout Skills competition, Gilwell Park, 1910 Scouting, etc (which all are exactly the same).
>Adults fear looking like failures. SMs don't want to be judged by the rest of the adult Scouters when their Scouts look inept at the scout skills so they (a) don't tell the Scouts about the upcoming Camporee, (b) tell them it won't be fun or fit in the calender, © tell the parents/committee how poorly planned and executed the events are, or (d) intentioanlly plan conflicting events at the same time.
>Adults at Council don't deconflict the calendars. We just had a Camporee, CPR and First Responder training, and popcorn sales all on the same weekend in our Council. When I asked about it the response was, "Really? How did that happen?"
>Adults run the stations (Where is the OA?!?!). I know no one here but me has ever seen this, right? Its always a Scout at the station. A cheerful and excited Scout. A Scout who really knows and is excited about his station. Definitely NOT a Scout who was TOLD he would be working the station who just learned his skill, at best, days before the event. Not a Scout who would rather leave because the adults keep coming over and pestering him about details or correcting what he's saying or showing "a little better" way. Not a Scout who's tired of being challenged by unit adult leaders when he makes a correction on the skill or gives an assessment on the performance of the team at the station, right?
If you want Scouts to come, plan events for Scouts. Get their input on what would be fun. Invite "cool" participants - firemen, K9 units, military, etc. Have little giveaways, prizes, etc. Include technology! Have a GPS course along with the map and compass. Recognize and reward for best campsite, best Patrol spirit, best uniformed, youngest Scout in attendance, best dessert, most creative use of rope in the campsite, best Patrol flag, etc to get away from the "mega" troop and share the wealth and promote Scout ideals you're looking for. Get Scout staff for the event - OA, senior Scouts, Venturing crews, etc and get them planning and training for the stations NOW. Have at least four Scouts identified for each event. At least one will not attend for a variety of reasons and whoever is at the station will want to go to the bathroom, eat, take a break, hang out with friends, go llok around - you know, have fun.
The "camporee award" (gold, silver, bronze) I've seen go by many names. This SHOULD be based on a points and recognize all who reach the goals. The top Patrol awards SHOULD recognize individual Patrol achievment over other Patrols. I'm not a big fan of troop level recognition at these sort of things. However, we were in a district that was and part of the reward for the "top troop" was they staffed the competition events at next year's Camporee. This gave them bragging rights, recognized their achievements with positional authority, and TOOK THEM OUT OF THE COMPETITION for the next Camporee. Worked really well there.
Awards to hang on the Ptrol flags can be cheap, fun, and inventive. These incentive awards can become the most popular awards of the camp. Just be sure to put the name of the Camporee, the reason for the award, and the year on the award so in 15 years when a SM finds these in the Scout Hut there will be some idea why its there.
We have been blessed with some great Camporees over the years as well - they all addressed just one thing - make it for the boys. Boy's Life often has articles on Camporees that are the envy of all. Event or theme focused, well organized (in advance), and what the Scouts find interesting. Maybe that's the secret to success?
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I've never heard of anyone "kicking open" their nalgene in the night, but then I've never seen a "nalgene-type" bottle used for this either. Personally, I've never needed to leave the bottle in, but my wife does.
As for rocks, you'd have to be very careful about overheating them and melting the material of your synthetic bag. They'd have to be wrapped pretty well to keep dirt and grime out, too.
Mentioning my wife reminds me of another issue I've seen - short people in tall bags. This applies to younger Scouts and shorter adults, of course. If you are not as long as your bag, there will be a lot of cold air in the foot of the bag. Moving during the night or extending your legs will be like shoving your feet into cold water, waking you up and leaving you very tired the next morning. For those having this problem just shove a fleece or wool blanket, etc (not the heavy winter coat they've been wearing all day) into the foot of the bag to take up the extra space.
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Best for what?
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We used them - and liked it. The PLs rotated through the all duties during the various camping trips but only one duty per campout. Of course the PL was involved in ALL duties, just like the ASPL, when you consider checking, demonstrating, teaching, showing, finding, explaining, telling, reiterating, etc.
The duties reflect the specific camp. The permanent are cooking, clean-up, water, fire (this could be fuel and stoves instead of wood and fire ring).
For cooking, if an inexperienced Scout is learing, an experienced Scout is assigned to help. Aside from this, all duties are shared by buddy teams (tent mates).
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Unless your Council has specified differently - and they may have - the uniform hat is what the contingent Troop selects. Echoing Crew's comments, I would avoid a full cloth hat for the middle of the day at Jambo. There are lots of options out there, from high tech to low tech, just have the Scouts choose the one they like and add the patch or universal hat pin, etc. You'll see contingents in their custom hats that are neon hot pink, hunter orange, etc which does make it easier to spot each other in a crowd as well. The visor you mentioned would probably work pretty well most of the time, too. Though I don't like visors much - lost my natural head covering a while back so I prefer a closed cap.
My and son and I are going staff this year but this is the hat we've used since our Scouting days in AZ (inclluding the 05 Jambo contingent) and here in west TX; didn't have much use for it in AK though!
http://www.bestglide.com/cooling_hat.html
I forgot to mention they also offer a 10% discount on purchases for Scout units.(This message has been edited by ntrog8r)
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You can also boil water before bed, put it in your nalgene. Wrap the nalgene in a t-shirt, putit in the foot of the bag about 15 minutes before you climb in. The fleece should help a lot, as will adding a skuill cap. Stay warm!
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Hmm, tough call. Personally, I'd talk with my son. How would he feel about it? How does he feel about Scouting if the Cubmaster becomes the Scoutmaster? What do the other parents think? What do you think? Some time with just you and your son may help sort it all out and there would be no conflict.
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I asked this question in two different Councils and was told by the Execs that NRA is the only BSA cert. Since I am NRA cert I've never pursued it any further. I'd love to find out the ground truth.
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Thanks to all, including joel, for their reviews. Sounds like SPoT is pretty reliable for those that choose to use it. This sounds like it could be pretty useful when used appropriately by folks out for extended periods. I know there's a few times when we were in AK my wife would have liked to hear from me.
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Terrific post!
It sounds like you've put together rosters, etc in computer format - I'm guessing Excel, some Gillwell Gazettes, and the referenced "handbooks", that could be used by others? Are you the source for these things that future scribes should seek?
Again, a great post - informative, interesting, and relevant! Thanks for contributing your experience and knowledge to the group, and to me.
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Yes, saying it was seen on TV and then added to Troop equipment does read a little a deceptive. Maybe it wasn't meant to, I don't know. But if the equipment has been used there must be experiences - good or bad - that go along with it. That's the point of this forum, right? Sooo, back to equipment reviews.
For those with "SPoT" experience:
Any problems with transmission - in the mountains, in canyons, in inclement weather, etc?
Has anybody dropped it - does it still work, how about below freezing?
How long did your batteries actually last - alkaline or lithium?
Any drops in the water, uses while rafting where the device got wet - does it really float?
Sailing, thanks for your experiences with the device. Any problems with corosion, exposure to salt water?
joel322 - You stated you use this regularly - what are your experiences?
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Not knowing what you've already tried, this is a little difficult but,
> Scoutmaster Conference, on 0n one with the troublemakers. Direct questions about the behavior, frank open discussions about respect, teamwork, cooperation, Scout Spirit, and their continued involvement with the Troop - i.e. Do they want to be there, why/why not.
> Scoutmaster Conference with parents, AND THE SCOUT, about the same topics.
> As sandspur said, send them home - the SPL or you can make this call.
> Depending on how bad it is, the next time they disrupt the SM "to get a laugh", stop what you're doing immediately. You can either have an open conference with the Troop right then about how their behavior affects the meeting, the other Scouts, reflects on them, etc with the other Scouts involved (keep it respectful, this NOT to embarrass them, though it may, but to get the Troop involved in the process of helping themselves), OR (and you must know your Scouts to determine if this will work) just turn, walk away and sit down and do something else. Wait for the Scouts to come to you and ask what's going on, explain you will not participate while that is happening, OR Call each Scout by name that is NOT disruptive, take them to a different area and complete what you're doing. You will need two other adults to keep the troublemakers where they are with some kind of training. Do NOT share what happened while you were out with the other Scouts, they can ask the other Scouts what they missed. DO tell their parents they missed part of the meeting and why, again do not pass the info missed to the parents, tell them their sons can get with their PLs for that. If they're doing this to the PLs, have the PLs send them to you during the meeting, again they will have to get with the other Scouts for whatever they've missed.
> As Eagle92 said, team building games may work. Give instructions once, quietly. Do not repeat them and have the Patrols begin. There are some great examples out there online.
> Move them into their own Patrol and let them deal with each other and suffer the consequences of their decisions - slow/no rank advancement, poor camping experiences, etc, last in competitions, etc. Be prepared for them to become your top Patrol though if they are acting this way because they are bored and don't feel any challenge in being there.
Hope this helps.
depressing campout
in Open Discussion - Program
Posted
Well, let's hope so!
If you go to the Issues and Politics forum I think you'll find there are plenty of liberal Scouters. But I don't think the issue is whether or not there is room for a liberal in Scouting. Racism and homophobia are not conservative, they are wrong.
There is NOT room in Scouting for racism and homophobia. Sounds like you and the other "new" leaders need to get together, talk about what you've just experienced, and get a plan. That plan may include starting a new troop, confronting these "forever" leaders (tactfully, of course) about their unacceptable behavior, or going to the Chartered Organization/DE about this, etc.