Nessmuk

Thanks for the link and comments.. I hope they have a CD or DVD version since some of our DL's are "in the sticks" and don't have Broadband or DSL..

I have often taken my favorite resources and materials and burned them to CD for Den leaders..

Does anyone on the forum have any experience with the "Fast Tracks" pilot program ? It is apparently a pilot program designed to aid Den Leaders in helping boys advance faster.

It has been tried in the MidWest and now my Pack is being asked to try it out. I am not a fan of "fast tracking" much of anything in Scouting but I am willing to give it a chance if I think its going to be good..

Looking for input from those who are more familiar with it.

Thanks

So, Packsaddle -- You write that as if I did not know that.

So you talk about leadership .. What gauge do you use to decide ( I guess you know them all?) that they are "good leaders".

Does that include being a "good example"?

Tell me why you think that "lifestyle" represents a morally straight and morally strong example for our boys? Answer that please. What basis do you use to decide that it is a positive (not even neutral - but positive) example?

Example: 'OJ' was a great football player.. Does that write-off double murder? (remember he was aquitted). Being aquitted is sort of like don't ask/don't tell. Even aquitted - still a good role model?? Someone you admire as a positive model? Absolutley ! If I use the logic and standards that you are applying. What is the basis of your statement about risk? Do you know the statistics of abusive relationships (gay vs straight). or the same comparative stats on drinking / drug issues? If he can teach how to start fire by rubbing two sticks, does thatexcuse all else?

Here's the really, really, really , really good part. The ones that are in Scouting have to be in an environment where they are constantly reminded that their 'choice' is wrong - or at least considered unnatural and unaccepted. Which will likely continue to cause them to always question why they are living like this - and many of them probably do every day..

This (BSA) may be their best chance to be saved - Not by someone shouting at them about how bad they are, (because they are not 'bad'- they are sick - and need help.) They may have an experience or a sharing of faith that might point them back on track.

If the BSA accepts them openly and condones the lifestyle, the BSA will not survive. It couldn't because it will be a very different organization. The examples and precedents to draw from are abundant.. Scouting will survive however in a reborn movement dedicated to the core values abdandoned by the old one.

So DADT and letting them stay covertly may help turn the tide by converting more back to being morally straight - and by at least having one organization that will not bow to hedonism and the "all accepting" society that comes with it.

Ever see the pain on a liberal's face when they listen to a gay that goes back straight and evangelizes about it like being dead and coming back from hell. I've read of such stories and heard interviews on the radio. Same thing happens with abortionists and women who have suffered from it and have renounced it.

OGE I was using those things as analogies and examples to make a point - not associating them with the other poster. Maybe (i.e I dunno) MommaScout is one of those well intentioned folks I mentioned that just does not realise the long term consequences in our society of being accepting of deviants in our society and the BSA.. Either way, her acceptance of it chips away at the core (in addition to the rest whether intentionally or just out of ignorance (not knowing))..

Scoutmomma - I didn't call you "evil" so don't try to side-step the main points by making it look like you have been personnaly attacked . You have not - Your position has. I am waiting for something substantial like.. "The reason I think homosexuality is good or OK or whatever for the nation and the BSA is..." The reason pedophiles are not the next likely group demanding acceptance is.... o" or " It's not a slip down the slope but an improvement, because ...."

Alright-- My point is that both homosexuality and the pedophilia were considered deviant and perverse - at a time when our nation and even world's values were stronger as a whole.

Due to erosion of those values over time by some calling themselves "progressives" and more people/society turning away from God and attempting to replace Him with worldy sciences (including pyschology) and all that "feels good" homosexuality has evolved into being accepted by larger numbers of people. It's called "normalization of deviance" and it happens at all levels..

What I am predicting is that if the trend continues, pedophilia (for now largely considered deviant -like homosexuality was) will be next.. Note that there are "real" organizations promoting it. - Likely to grow larger and more powerful with more deviance being widely accepted. You can look at a time in history when the homosexuals were in a similar situation as pedophiles in terms of acceptance.

They may be the next "low" on the slippery slope..

I was just listening this morning to Dr. Dobson and that prompted me to check this thread (for I too had not intended to return).. He was discussing the laws going into effect in California this year on sexual indoctrination of children there from 6 YO up..

In the language they actually erase the definition of sex from being male/female and replace it with sexual orientation.

Check out SB777

Excerpts from http://www.rescueyourchild.org/The_Problem.html

SB 777 PDF effectively promotes transsexual, bisexual, homosexual indoctrination of schoolchildren by requiring changes to all school instruction and school activities.

This law isn't about sex education. When fully implemented, SB 777 will affect everything on campus -- classroom instruction, instructional materials, textbooks, guest speakers, handouts, videos, sex education, drama, music, school assemblies, sports teams, homecoming games, school proms, school clubs, and much more.

There is no opt out for parents. In fact, to "opt out" of SB 777, you would have to "opt out" of the entire school day. As stated above, when fully implemented, SB 777 will affect everything on campus -- classroom instruction, instructional materials, textbooks, guest speakers, handouts, videos, sex education, drama, music, school assemblies, sports teams, homecoming games, school proms, school clubs, and much more.

(End excerpt)

I checked out the PDF of the legislation.. Reading through it - This is scary stuff. I can not imagine my first grader being exposed to this insanity and I am thankful I do not live there, but who knows when my state is next??

Bringing this all around:

I see the SAME THING GOING ON INSIDE THE BSA . People espousing ideas like Scoutmomma's may not be "organized" with meetings and plans and plots with their like-minded buddies in other units..Ala 50's style Communist meetings..but they are steadily pushing their perverted ideas and philosophies at any chance they get - Pushing us to a Canadian Scouting approach (which will eventually lead to the death of the BSA as an effective and meaningful values-based movement).

Some of these folks may be well-intentioned Scouters and not intend to destroy the BSA from within - just "be open and accepting" of anything - and some may actually wish to see the death of ANY values-based standards in our society - That's a telltale component of the sickness of modern "liberalism".

Either way - I am just writing all of this (not to win their hearts) but to point them out for what they really are - so others in our movement who "have wondered" will not be timid in challenging them an their shameless attack on the timeless values we must continue to fight for.

I have been criticized for my use of the word "attack"... Is not a major hack into our nation's or government's IT infrastructure considered an "attack" ?-- No one dies, but it is an "attack".. Are the terms "cyber-war" and "econonomic war" not meaningful? Is there no such thing as a "hostile take-over" in the corporate world?

So the ostrich-like stance stating "no deaths or combat" = "no war" and therefore proclaiming the current "cultural war" does not or could exist is weak.

Listening to readings of Lincoln's speeches this morning on the radio makes me think of the last time a cultural and economic war led to combat in our nation.

I would rather understand and exclaim what we are potentially heading towards in order to avoid it if possible - as opposed to pretending it does not exist.. I mean this in terms of a potential great death of the values-based BSA or some "larger scale cultural war" going high order...

Interesting situation.. Now with the moderator-edited post (which fundamentally is fine by me) one can't really be sure of what I said that Scoutmomma found so objectional ..

This leaves it to anyone's imagination what I wrote in the post which really is somewhat biased against me now.. Because now folks are left to make up their own idea about what I said and judge me by that - as opposed to what I really stated.

But hey, 'bias' is an increasing part of what one has to deal with today in the press, public forums, and in general when dealing with the Socialist element (in and out of Scouting)..

If anyone was wondering what I posted (that was removed), I invited Scoutmomma to investigate (via an html link) the statements (that sound so similar to hers by the way) of an organization claiming to be promoting something so vile and horrible as 'natural and normal' (just like homosexuals do).. I did not use foul language or any such thing - as the censorship may make it appear.

I suppose that having that link on the forum bothered the moderator (which I can understand) It bothers me that it even exists.

Scoutmomma.. We can only "agree to disagree" on a matter so foundational.

The current BSA uniform has much room for improvement.. I felt that way as a boy scout 79 to 86 and still do - but understand "why" a bit better now.. I was disheartened to move from the green no-collar shorts as a scout.. All my patrol mates felt the same way.. We liked the single color green uniform..

BUT even given all of the technical and aesthetic problems I have with the uniform ... I still wear the FULL UNIFORM.. and voluntarily did so as a Scout too.

In my experiences, the ADULT issues with non-uniform pants and the like (even the look-alikes) are ALL about being non-committal and /or lazy.

I am in a small town and everyone knows most everyone and we can SEE people's priorities by how they spend their money if we don't already know their situation personally..

I have stated before that the boys with no money that want to be in Scouts actually manage to get into a full uniform with my help (I will hunt for deals on Ebay etc) or help from other leaders and parents.. It's neat how the financially poor kids will work at getting a uniform and how some of the the spoiled well-off kids "get it all" and blow off the uniform with Mom and Dad' OK..

LisaBob'comments about coming across too strong are well noted and I think we all kinda know that.. That's why we talk about it here on the forum (or at least that's why I do..) Cause we don't wanna hurt nobody's feelins in our units.

But I think we have an obligation as Scouters and should communicate some "solid expectations" about uniforms - (just like behavior).

Good post Lisa Bob -- Sorry if I offended you with my humor on the career thing.. I have issues with Poly Sci people (esp Prof's - another story if you dare want to PM)

Now my 3MD "main money makin' duty"..

I work for one of the several vast right wing conspiracy groups - getting paid to annoy left wing Scouters so bad that they'll eventually split off into their own organization and leave the BSA be.

Naw - not really - Right now I lead programs for an outfit that builds and launches rockets with gadgets that most of the time do what they're supposed to do..but I guarantee my next "job" will be to live in (and off) the wilderness as much as I possibly can.

Nessmuk the Rocket scientist!

Oh!! By the way.. Be advised that the explanation for how a wing generates 'lift' in the WEBELOS handbook (Scientist) is pure myth? Make sure you do some research before you teach em that one. I have not passed the comment onto National book people , but I gotta believe somebody else has beat me to it..

Scoutmomma says " you may find James Dobson an authoritative source on psychology matters; I don't. He thinks homosexuality is a preference that can be "corrected" through counseling, a view that is rejected by the American Psychological Association, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the American Counseling Association, the American Association of School Administrators, the American Federation of Teachers, the American School Health Association, the Interfaith Alliance Foundation, the National Association of School Psychologists, the National Association of Social Workers and the National Education Association -- see http://www.apa.org/pi/lgbc/publications/justthefacts.html"

Well, Scoutmomma .. I don't give a hoot for a single one of those org's you listed .. They are mostly cesspools of socialism and humanism besides being a bunch of handwringers.. There -- how's them apples?? Oh and you forgot the Teacher's Unions, NAMBLA, GAYLA, and dozens others..

I did not say that pedo=homo, but I did say they are both deviant, unhealthy and LINKED.

Furthermore, There is the idea that homosexuality is a behaviour spawned by mental disorders AND a perversion...Certain elements of society love to push any boy and as many boys into believing they're homosexual. It's part of the 'attack' on boys - and thus the men of the future.

To assert homosexuals are not deviants (and are merely differently wired versions of heterosexuals) simply ignores the extreme lifestyle of perversion and promiscuity of homosexuals.. There are plenty of books written by those who lived that lifestyle, found Jesus and turned it around only to be able to see how bad it was after they got far enough away from it.

In the early to mid 80's when the "closets" were really opening up, I made a prediction that not long after homosexuals were officially "accepted" the next slip down the slope was for pedophiles to begin harping about their "rights" and begin their march into acceptedness.

(well, the following wasnt needed, I know that OGE)

(This message has been edited by a staff member.)

Even with the raging debate about what constitutes 'manliness".. (I'm good to go with ole TR's version of it.) WHAT IS (or should be) important to Scouters is that we are in the business of helping to build boys into good men -- That does not happen naturally by just growing up - a "man" is not an "adult male".

"Within My Power"

I was searching the web for something else today and found this by Forest Whitcraft - "Within My Power" in several places.. I never read it before. Tis very good ..(am I still allowed to say something is 'good' or 'bad'?) Hmmm. might be a bit too judgmental I dunno.. Aww I'll share it anyway..

http://www.pgcps.pg.k12.md.us/~kworth/1046/within.html

Oh yeah - I didn't cut and paste cause somebody posted that it was not 'good' etiquette on the forum - not sure why.

Acco4, I'm sorry that I keep forgetting that "it's all relative" with some folks. That's right you know - his values, her values, my values, Joe's, Bob's, Hitler's values, Mao's, Pol Pot's, Clinton's, OJ's, Ted Bundy's, BP's, Abe Lincoln, throw em all in there - all equally important an none are allowed to be labeled good or bad - What color state ??

Good and Bad are timeless..

Of course its natural to look at the olden days to be better.. because it's natural that the olden days could have been better - or worse - Depends on the specifics don't it?

Generalizations don't hold to be truth in either direction.. So just because we are in the "modern times" does not mean things are better either.. Why should I have to say this??

Whether a DL is male or female is not a "value" or a "principle". It's a condition or state - a situation.. A different condition could be an example or symptom of a value shift, but it's not the value itself..

OK Scoutmomma, Sure there's arguments on both sides of this - admittedly , but I have been around enough and seen / lived enough to say despite any psych argument that the "good sense" rule has to be considered heavily - especially when dealing with psychologists and psychology websites AND authoritative references such as USA Today.. My 'disrespectful' attitude was not intended to be disrespectful, but to cut to the point that "puuulleease" means a-plenty to me when I hear it..

Would you follow the advice of USA today or a psychologist and let your hormone- pumped 12 YO son camp and sleep alone with a person you know to be an active homosexual .-- .

James Dobson is the only psychologist I would even begin to listen to on such matters.. and he could never convince me to let my son be alone with a homosexual.

Are we OT?

My last comment on this thread ... Yayyy!

The sad part is that we are talking "chump change" in both these instances with the HUD money.. If we were all paid $5/hour to bang away at this forum we'd have > 20X the amounts we are squabbling over..

BSA needs to forget public funding and get us all to pay to use this forum. !!

Gern - Your right! ain't the name of that law ironic? It's easier to visualize with the 2nd because it signifies a free man's last and ultimate resort to resist tyranny.. Folks in the UK are in effect slaves and many realize it now as they live in the view of a camera almost everywhere they walk.

Lisa Bob - The erosion of our liberties and associated values at home are an important element of the the long term strategy of those "terrorists" who made the 9/11 attacks.

Not to diminish the loss of life, but this ain't conventional as much as it's cultural..

Bringing it back to BSA, whether it's intentional or not, teh effect is ultimately the same.. Poison the BSA from within because frontal assaults (lawsuits) are not as effective.

You know how to boil a frog don't you...?

Hi SctDad.. Thanks for taking you time to chime in and thanks for service in Iraq.. If you want to get a feel for the over/under issue , study the pics of scouts from the past and not-so distant past.. Then think about the practical aspects of the neckerchief that we wish to maintain as a part of a uniform.. - The uniform that is practical, conveys our heritage and looks the role. What I am saying is that the current set-up (and under the collar) are all about "parlour-scouting" and are very feminine to boot. About looking the same - that's good but it's still not "uniform". The cub blue and green convertible scout pants have come down in price significantly for what they offer and the whole cost thing is mostly a matter of priorities anyway - other threads adress this $$ topic adequately.

Teach the use the neckechief as a tool and the boys will latch onto it..

Why do people continue to think that it's "alarmist" to think that another group would actually subvert a movement or idea for which they hold great contempt.. Trevorum apparently has not met and studied, worked and generally consorted with the sort of elitist liberal types (and some who even claim to be "moderates") that I have been exposed to over the years... People act as though "conspiracies" don't really happen. If they don't, why do we have the word - and why do we use it to describe people who in fact do "conspire"..

If it were my calling, (and I wish it were sometimes) I would enthusiatically engage in an attack on the morally deprived elements that attacked movements like ours.. Actually for me the good fight is in Scouting - working to build up and promote the values.. But they attack us from their positions in social, governmental, academic and corporate entities. To pretend it does not exist is ostrich-like at best..

As I read Hans Zeigers works that Pappy referenced, I am compelled to think that the enemies of our movement, and hence our values, succesfully gutted Candian Scouting from the inside - the absolutely textbook best way to demolish your enemy - Oh but that can't happen ! It's alarmist.. Was it alarmist that Nazis secretly landed on the shores of Jersey in the 3o's and 40's.??. Oh, but because that was a "real" war between countries, it really happened..

Hey folks the current cultural war is a war more real than any armed conflict between nations, because the battle lines have no geographical defintions but are instead drawn around the minds, hearts and daily lives of people (OUR people) Our boys (the future male leadership of our nation and world! -- and you think no-one would want to subvert our values in a concentrated and organized manner. Canada is a great example of how the BSA should NOT let go of its values. Consider Australia, and the UK too.. both failing tremendously..

Anyone watching the erosion of our Bill of Rights in the US (particularly the 2nd ammendment)should be able to readily draw an analogy and example to what is occurring in those increasingly Orwellian states of UK, Canada, Australia...

Oh yeah, and I too think Anne Coulter's commentary is 'on target' .and I agree about her attractiveness as well. (I.e. she's pretty hot).

Speaking of Anne, here's a recent article on Men - specifically her father..

http://anncoulter.com/cgi-local/article.cgi?article=229

A pre-Oprah world straight shooter..

Nessmuck

Scoutmamma

Your comment about the homo-pedophelia connection being baseless is in fact BASELESS.

Please attempt to back up your statement. The connection is not just everyday reasonable but makes perfect sense to me and most any man I have ever talked to about it.. What personal experiences of yours and/or research back up the lack of a connection. It's been a little while since I read "Scout's Honor..." by Patrick Boyle, but I recall several real cases in that book that made a clear connection between the two.

Or are you going to reinforce my past experiences that when a female (esp. lib female) says "puuu leeese" like that, it means she has absolutely no foundation for her position?

And we could take Lisa Bob's post as an attack on Pappy.. Or are only those who tow the party-line allowed to be funny?

"Of course it is; it's also completely legal."

Just because somethings is legal , don't make it right.. Just because it's illegal don't necessarily make it wrong either..

We are all vulnerable to the risk of falling into an ethical wrong-doing.. Not even Scouters are perfect Merlyn. It's interesting that the one who does not believe there is a God expects everyone else to be perfect. like Merlyn here.. The difference is that people who truly "believe" recognize their fallibility.. I won't defend the unethical choices, but i don't know the facts of this case either..

I do know that those who commit to an ethical and religious life are most under the scrutiny of those who "worship the world" and naturally their sins will be hoisted the highest by those proclaiming "join us cause we don't worry about bad choices, sin and wrongdoing - We have no timeless standard to be held to.. Just whatever is legal or isnt - and even then its arguable..

Merlyn -Go live your deal with Mao in China .. You'll be a prayin' real soon boy !

Hmm Pappy ..I recall that statement by Lisa Bob. I was scrtchin my head too.

. Just what productive or culturally beneficial purpose is served by a "professional political scientist" anyway? Never even heard of anyone who called themselves a "pro poly sci" -- an I used to work in DC !!

"That will be $2.79. Please drive forward to the window."

Another example (so typical of the Left) where those who claim to be caring and compassionate hosing up a perfectly great program that absolutely no Left-wing organization would ever take on and make successful.

The attacks on the BSA by the athiest/homosexual nuts (technically sufficient terms) have hurt the inner city and under-served programs the most..

Leroy dude - you should pack your bags and travel on your own dime to run a soccer league in that state (wherever your from)...

I just took out the words I wanted to use to describe you..but this is a rare situation on this forum where I wish I was face to face in private. I would not hesitate the slightest to make my thought loud and clear!

Maybe you can teach them to believe "in nothing" while dribbling down the field while these kids look at you and wonder "what in the world" you have been smokin'..

Amazing ! And you are Scouter !???! Shame !

Well, after reading all of this (and there's a lot here) the answer about a divison in the BSA is pretty obvious -- Of course it's coming - whether its 50/50 or whatever there are distinct "camps" here despite the spectrum of the many, many minor differences that we see in units..

The responses all combined- served to answer the question about the likleyhood of a schism as Pappy described based on my comments in another thread about "division". I was getting ready to say "It's sad" but it's just natural.. Division is as natural as nature and it would do Scouting some good to allow each camp to pursue their version of the program and not feel compromised so much.

Le Voyageur - Regarding the year 1260, 1860 etc... In case you have not noticed.. There is this logo that OUR BSA has -- It says " On My Honor - TIMELESS VALUES"... That's what they are dude - Timeless!.. The year does not matter .Get it !.

Before the fundamentals and principles of the Scouting movement are threatened into extinction, there will be a schism.. It is better to "decide on a side" than to live in constant squabble.

I know that I won't be a part of BSA anymore if BSA openly accepts homos and athiests - and a major chunk of my community will be right behind me in building a different program to replace it if it happens. Matter of fact, when the press was full of this sort of discussion, I had all sorts of folks calling asking to whom do they right the check to support Scouting's defense.. A schism could be the driving force behind a re-birth of the movement...

Which makes me wonder ...What would BP think of how successful Scouting has been for the UK given how lame and demoralized that once great country is.. He started the movement to invigorate the Empire and give its boys a greater sense of purpose and save them from the disease of a corrupt and industrialized society...

New Thread !!

GW -- You mentioned Carlos Hathcock! ... Wow! now there's some bio to study for today's scouts.. Some good books below...

Much about being a "man" can be very well learned through reading great stories ancient and modern about great men.. These are the books the feminists/libs/revisionists wish to keep out of our schools...

And of course our sons and other boys learn about being a man from US! and that is a great repsonsibility..

One of my favorite handbooks on the matter I keep reading.. "Raising a Modern Day Knight" by Robert Lewis - full of great and meaningful stories and yet a handbook too.. The handbook for a modern day knight is in fact the Bible and these are the ten ideals listed:

1 Loyalty

2 Servant Leadership

3 Kindness

4 Humility

5 Purity

6 Honesty

7 Self Discipline

8 Excellence

9 Integrity

10 Perseverence

Interesting to ALL of us Scouters should be the Chapter on the Importance of CEREMONIES in a boy's entry to manhood.

You don't have a devout Christian to appreciate this book ! Highly rec it..

Second book I would reccomend to you all.. "Boys . Shaping Ordinary Boys into Extraordinary Men" William Beausay II -- Lots of good stuff here and some of it good Scouting related since the author was a scout leader too..

OK and then there's that poem that is with me constantly./. All Scouters would be very well served to learn this and recite it with the boys..

Kipling's "IF"

This reminds me of the time I gave a Scout troop a tour of the facility where I work ( my boss knew I was active in Scouts, so he asked me to do the tour).. While talking to the Scoutmaster about various Scout stuff, I asked him who their CO is... He and the other leaders had NO IDEA - and proceeded to scratch their heads on it for a while still with no answer!! That was one extreme..

I have had some success with our CO in the last two years with the concept that the "Pack is their youth program".. We do a service project with them now twice a year.. Meals on Wheels - They cook the meals in their kitchen and Cubs deliver them to the shut-in elderly folks. We always get a picture and story in the paper together. Last year for the first time we participated in a public flag ceremony with them at our local festival.. It went real well and we both got press together.. We have come "a ways" since the days and times a few years back when we got "read the riot act" for leaving masking tape on the floor after a Pack Meeting!

Also, The org leaders will be invited to the Blue & Gold and we will have a re-charter ceremony then too.. (if the charter comes in time !!)

Finally, I try to get myself invited to their executive meeting once a year to give an annual report (short talk and then I hand over a written report).. summarize activities, membership & finances etc..

It's a lot of work, but as they say - "It's all about relationships"!

If your CO is a national organization, they probably have a letter of endorsement for the BSA from the national level.. Go to Scouting.org to find a bunch of different org's letters.. In my first annual report to our CO, I put excerpts from such a letter (with organization's logo etc) in the front matter and the full letter in the back.. It gets their attention when they realize they are doing something that is encouraged at their national level..