Nessmuk

...That the same parents who don't mind having their sons in half (or less) of a Scout Uniform never apply the same logic to their son's soccer or baseball or football uniforms?

....That when the little league baseball coach told all of his players to be in their full uniform at the big game on Saturday, everyone(including parents) understands and thinks it's great !???

... That you would wonder "what's his problem?" if you saw a Soldier, Sailor , Marine, Cop, Mailman, UPS driver, laundry delivery man (pick any) in his uniform shirt AND JEANS.. but it's "OK" for members of the World's Greatest Youth Movement!??

... That most parents complain about the price of the uniform and yet buy $75 play shoes, Skate shoes, clothing from Kid's Gap, hundreds in video games, PC's, TV's and DVD's in every bedroom..!

... That the really "financially poor" seem to properly wear and take good care of whatever shred of uniform they were able to get, while the "rich" kids often don't care if they look like slobs...

If anyone can relate to the above and/or have your own examples - Feel free to fly in and deposit your own nuggets.

Eagle in KY - The idea of the uniform is to be "uniform".. The "We're gonna do this and we're gonna do that" is another problem that is killing the uniform and the movement a piece at a time.. I am no fan of the Oscar Dela Rente uniform and the changes away from the practical and traditional... BUT I still wear the full uniform and do not make my own rules - This is another subtle lesson to the Scouts about respect and loyalty ! You are supposed to be the example.. You are subverting the methods of Scouting with your "substitite duds".

Anyway, your proposed substitute is not practical - just stylish. -- Just like Oscar was trying to be.

As far as unavailability of Short sleeve shirts - Be like a real Scout and get a long sleeve!! (o rshoudl I say "normal sleeve" - Way much more practical and useful....Any challengers on that comment ??- please feel free to step forward and state your case..

Just a quick lesson learned for the rest of you.. Don't use a "Stain-stick" on the olive green Scout switchbacks.. It very much lightens the color in the area you apply it. !! I guess my new switchbacks are relegated to camp duty alone ... And I was getting to like them for all around wear.

Aside: I do wish we had made a more rugged version .. The Supplex is good for kayak/canoe and beach trips (general non-rugged use).. Something along the lines of a heavy weave water resistant duck material would be more handy for most camping trips. (ala Carhart material quality - treated for water repellancy)... I am not a fan of cotton either - and especially dislike jeans in the outdoors, but something more rugged than nylon is needed..

Of course if I were the boss of the uniform scene, we would be in a medium khaki tropical-weight wool outfit - with matching heavy wool scout smock/jacket for winter use...

Those who don't know the magic of properly woven and treated wool usually cringe when they hear me say the four letter word.. But there are a few out there who know what I am talking of and I have almost converted a few Scouters and Scouts to understand the magic of wool..

After many years of disappointment and dollars down the hole, I have abandoned almost all of my expensive synthetic outerwear for the wool and other traditional approaches.. My wool and canvas jackets will last multiple generations and my synthetics did not even last a few years without failing.

Beavah, Glad to have you respond.. As you may have seen I'm a fairly new poster here, but I have been reading the site a long time.. As far as my 'codgering', I am only 38 and a child of the 70's/80's. I was in the transition phase green (no collar) to khaki (as well as a victim of book changes) Still love the beret (even if not practical - unless you're a tank driver) Just got one of those new wide brim wool stetsons from the Scout shop.. I like it ! I can't believe teh uniformicrats can sleep at night with having developed and issued the AWFUL ball cap for so many years. I like ball caps - but these nasty things were wretched from the start - even in the 80's. Can not even compare them to the current technology in ball caps.

I have evolved and changed over the years and almost come full circle on the gear and methods.. I keep finidng ways that the traditional gear and methods are just plain better - especially for a program that aims to develop young boys into self reliant good men.

On the cotton neckerchiefs - even if cotton it would still have a ton of uses in the winter AND furthermore one could make it from good looking and practical worsted wool (even Merino wool) that is durable and soft! Wool easily outperforms most of the fleece items in terms of durability and also insulates when wet and does not catch fire easily. Silk is even better in the winter - not just a summer thing.

A Neckerchief design contest (not just the color/patch) would be a cool idea for a troop.

Thanks for the great replies but keep em coming...

Oh!! say it's not so BSA ! I missed that part somehow --Page 6 of the regs states the neckerchief optional for Boy Scouts ! By vote. It's worse than I thought.. I was wrong..It is more accurate to state that "BSA has essentially killed the neckerchief" - Extreme statement ?? We all know what comes after things become "optional".

The real threat is not the Uniform Police - but in fact it is the "Uniformicrats" (just made it up) who are making up these 'out of synch with Scouting' policies at National! It's enough to make makes even the most die hard Scouter dude (like me) want to protest by wearing a patch in the wrong spot on purpose! If someone asks why my Cubmaster patch is upside down, I'll say "I voted to make it that way !"

Oh... funny note about voting-- My son's WEBELOS II Den (I call them a Patrol in Formulation) just voted to name their den/patrol the "Rhinocerous Beetle Patrol".. Looks like custom patches for them!

Whoa - I was so red eyed in my rant about Neckers above I did not see this good post on the same subject.. Keep it practical! - Heavy cloth (Some websites out there show how to rip (yes rip) the bolts of fabric before hemming and get the RIGHT size .. Frontiersmen (old time scouts) liked bright colors in the neckerchief.. It was one way to kick their outfit up a notch when they were on the town after a long time in the the wilderness blending in..

A heavy 100% cotton is nice if it has been presrhunk and does not bleed easily.. 50/50 is Ok but I have observed that it's all in the weave with 50/50..Sometimes 50/50 is rugged and comfortable and sometimes it feels cheap and scratchy..

Keep it simple -really "uniform" -- There's already too much division in how the "uniform" is worn and having different colors for females etc. seems really out of synch with the basic concept here.

And what's this "voting to keep the Neckerchief" stuff?/ OK let's vote to change our name to "Bubble Gum Scouts"! Do I hear a second to the motion?

My last response to a post on uniform got my blood pumping.. I've been wanting to put this out here for years !

The BSA is killing the neckerchief (and the uniform in the process) - Why?

1) 'Under the collar' promotes the Necker as a fashion item - not the practical, functional AND good looking item of clothing it is. (Symbolism over substance.)

2) While the insignia guide leaves the over/under option open to a unit to decide, it is plain confusing (and un-uniform) for most Cub/Scout Parents when they see a Scout catalog filled with under-collar pictures and the Cubmaster or other leaders are "traditional" and saying "over the collar".

3) Well just shoot me, but am I the only one that sees the under-collar mode as very "feminine"?.. Before you start accusing me of not being confident in my masculinity, just take a look at some pictures of female scouters and note how much more appropriate and natural the under-collar mode looks.. Look at non-uniform female scarves and see that they are most often worn under the collar. If I hear another scout's Mom call the Necker a a "scarf"......ooooo

4) The size and quality of material being used is more evidence that the necker is not being given its proper position in the uniform - too small and too thin - no use - just for looks.

..and I recognize Scouters are divided now on this.. Some see the necker as passe and it's now another way to make up an individual excuse about how one wants to wear the uniform.

I challenge anyone on the argument that the Neckerchief is no longer practical - even in modern times.. I am an avid outdoorsman and consider my preparedness linked strongly to my decisions about what gear I carry on a trip - Even when I simply leave the house to go to the store or the office the same essentials go in the pockets.. Among other items, a heavy oversized bandana/handkerchief (or two) is in the kit.. On a Scouting uniform the same concept applies - "only it's at the ready" and a visible item of the uniform - (Substance AND Symbolism) -

I don't know any serious preparedness experts or outdoorspeople who would seriously challenge me on the utility of such a device and practice.. Well then why is our great movement - with its motto "Be Prepared"- having such a problem with the most practical and useful (and symbolic) part of the uniform ?

Resourcefulness ! - I just read a great book entitled "Boys" -- can't remember the author -- (will hunt it down though) Summarizing one part - Boys are not being taught resourcefulness anymore - and its hurting our society. The Neckerchief is a great way to instill this quality in young men. Go see the book showing all the uses of a neckerchief (in the field and on the street (or in space even) ! And it's right there "at the ready" and visible ! A way to identify that "He is a Scout and is prepared" - That's what they mean when they say "outward expression of our values" in the literature - It's not just the badges.

OK - I have more, but I will wait and see what the rest of you think...

I hope the BSA gets this squared away.. Oh yeah,, just went to an Eagle BOR last night -- He was in unifrom - but not really (no Neckerchief)..Well at least he wore the scout pants and not jeans!

I have to chime in and say that in my experiences as a Scout and now as a Scouter, consistent uniform issues are an indicator of other Unit and individual "issues".. The clothes are not a litmus test, but they do 'make the man' as they used to say.. Too many maybe well intentioned (we know where that heads) folk whine about this exception and that - instead of just owing up to the fact that the full uniform is the right way to go - end of story... On the so-called "poor boy" scene, I most often see the motivated scouts in proper uniform - indepenedent of $$ -- If they have the right attitude, they (and their parents) MAKE IT Happen. I have started a uniform box in my Pack for those who really can not afford it and we work out a plan .. I "love it" when the parents who buy their kid literally thousands of dollars of every toy imaginable go to Walmart to get blue pants (because the Cub pants cost $40 - or worse they wear jeans).. It's attitude! That being said, I am not thrilled where the BSA has taken the uniform since the 80's, but I still wear it.. I am a very traditional BP Scout kind of guy, but I wear the uniform correctly (not making up my own to suit and excuses to go with it) and yet advocate for change respectfully. Recent moves to switchback pants and the new Cub Pants say that the uniform people are starting to get a clue.. The features of the uniform need to be tied to principles, pragmatism and philosophy (like BP did when he assembled uniforms for his Scouts on teh veldt in Africa).. In the Oscar De La Rente thing, the BSA was like a wayward meandering lost soul -- looking for style instead of substance..

Sure there's a time and place for campfires ! Don't like the smell of smoke? Is your heart into this or are you going through the motions? Smoke is great ! And even BP and Beard and Seton encouraged small fires only as needed.. It's all good sense. Campfires and smoke are practical and spiritual things. I am impressed about the observation about fire vocalized by the boy mentioned in the first post. It is true and to the heart.

This "techy" version of the outdoors life and all of the LNT "extremism" I am seeing now threatens the very act of going outdoors.. Balance is key here folks. 1st it's LNT - then is :"reduce your carbon footprint".. Next it's "Stay in your vinyl plasti-house watching a screen unless the government says you can come out"..

Hey I realize this is May 31 and this is late and in the pile of a lot of good replies.. But !! This boy has just learned a valuable lesson or two in leadership and reinforcing this outcome ( I refuse to call it a mistake) is part of his growth .. # 1 He is demonstrating better leadership and initiative than 95+ percent of the world's "adults" !!

#2 Forget dinging him with "He did not have all the information before making the move." That is a slippery slope that can sour the development of a great leader. A common rule in leadership circles is make the decision when you think you have 85% of the info.. Some riskier environments demand a lower % to "get things done".. As far as consulting with the SM - Depends.. Do you want a boy that asks the SM every time he makes a decision about HIS troop? If you do, then push that "Ask the SM" stuff... The boy did extemely well in how he handled it. In my Scouting days (even in our boy led and pretty even keeled troop), the troublemakers would most have likely been scared out of their wits at a campout one night by the "great woods spirit" that periodically rids our troop of all bad guys ! He did GREAT without that sort of stuff. He needs to be encouraged more by applauding his initiative and informing him that he also now has to be responsible for "monitoring and adjusting" the situation after his decision - another imprtant leadership concept. If you have "overridden" his (and the PLC's) decision in this case, you have just created more problems and probably hosed up the creation of a future great world leader! Good job !