Nessmuk

The subject of "division" within the BSA has been on my mind a lot(fortunately or unfortunately) since I became active in Scouting again several years ago..

As a Scout I used to look at the Royal Rangers dismissively and sometimes poked fun at them based on what I was told about them by leaders and older scouts. Now looking at what's been happening in BSA and Scouting worldwide, I can appreciate much better why they are a seperate organization and respect them for it.

I see "BP-Scouts" worldwide (in the US too) (and apparently growing)

And of course there are the general divisions inside of BSA..

I don't wish the BSA to have a schism, but I also don't wish to be a member of and promote a movement which goes against my fundamental ethics and beliefs.

I predict BSA will very likely see a major schism (like a 50 /50) if there is an elimination or major relaxation of our stance on one or more key issues like religious beliefs and God or acceptance of homosexuals as members..

Oddly I don't think such a schism will reduce the impact or presence of scouting, but will likely draw many people towards the movement more strongly. I see this in action as many parents I know don't want to be in Scouting becasue it in reality is too wishy-washy and "caught on the fencepost"..

To Ed,

(and others )I love this Book ! affectionately abbreviated "R2S"

Chapter 2

WINE

Wine?

Colonel Yervers never attempted to be without wine or some sort of alcohol inside him.

On one occasion, when no liquor was to be got, he drank some furniture polish. When the doctor said to him, " But do you mean to say that you could get no water ? "

The colonel replied, "My good sir, you can't have ever had a real thirst on you or you would know that that's not the time for thinking about having a wash."

THAT THIRD GLASS.

Wine ? I like a glass of good winefor its flavour, its colour and refreshment.

And equally I like a glass of beer or cider in its turn. Somehow a second glass seldom appeals to me so much as the first, because the flavour no longer strikes one with its novelty and the first edge of appetite has worn off.

As for the third glass, the man who is wise knows that there is "poison in the cup," that the sugars and other chemicals contained in the liquor don't in the end do you great good. I suppose, for instance, that few people realise how a fair amount of beer-drinking brings on corns, just as port wine helps to develop gout.

It is the third glassif not the secondthat puts you out of condition for running and exercise; and a young man will keep his eye on it accordingly.

In my regiment we worked on the principle that officers and non-commissioned officers led their men by example rather than by command, and on this principle I held that one or two of the sergeants were too large round the waist to be able to nip on to or off their horses as quickly as they should do in showing their men the way.

BP - "Rovering to Success" Chapter 2 "Wine"

I'm with le Voyageur.. I prefer (and endaevour) to my kill, butcher, clean, process, cook and serve my "pot roast" critter AND garden veggies.. I will teach my young to do the same.

Those who themselves "don't or won't" do it this way - I don't chastise, but feel sorry for them and what they are missing.

Those who say they are doing it (but are really getting their Pot Roast at the grocery store or Restaraunt) I will declare then to be a mistakin' or a misleadin'..

Those who say "I shouldn't" get a bit stronger reaction - or nor reaction at all.

Truth is I don't do "Pot Roast" this way ALL THE TIME even though I wish I did.. But when I do, it has a deep spiritual and personal meaning that carries over into trips to the grocery store and restauraunt and other parts of life.

Frustrating moments in Scouting with Faith issues

1) When in one of my early Scouter training classes the trainer made a point that we were not to write God's name on anything due to offense that may be taken by some religion (maybe Judism?) so all of our songs in the song book were like this "Go_"

2) Same trainer (several years later at Wood Badge) made same case but much broader application.. Christian Scouters seemed to be pushed out of allowing to share our faith and yet accomodate an almost non-existent group of 'who knows what"..

3) At Cub Resident Day Camp, some 'psychadelic' female camp counselor reads a Dr. Seuss story (long and boring one too) as the prime content for the Sunday morning "worship service".

4) At same Woodbadge session, I walk over to another Patrol site looking for a fellow Catholic that I heard wants to attend Mass together at a Parish down the road from camp. I meet her and we strike up a conversation. One of her Patrol immediately butts in and begins to shed his ignorance all over us and denigrate Catholics in several very nasty ways including talking in a most vulgar manner about his ex-wife - who was also Catholic.. This guy was in Woodbadge?? Help ! Who screens these people?

Proud Moment In faith in Scouting

(I could only think of one so I had to change this from plural)

1) At training session similar to 1 (OLS maybe) a group of various scouters takes offense to the "Go_" thing and other items and politely / respectfully challenges the trainer with lots of questions and situations and such...Trainer is made very aware that the importance of our Faith and relationships with God outweighs all else (Scouting too).. Maybe helped the trainer understand something...

2) ???????????????????????I'm trying

"CONCENTRATION in education can only be obtained when the work to be done is suited to the tastes and abilities of the learner.

The natural instinct of the infant is to develop itself by exercise which we call " Play." It has an inherent desire to accomplish ; the young child wants to do things and to overcome difficulties to its own satisfaction. (Dr. Montessori has proved that by encouraging a child in its natural desires, instead of instructing it in what you think it ought to do, you can educate it on a much more solid and far-reaching basis. It is only tradition and custom that ordain that education should be a labor, and that as such it is good training for the child in discipline and application.

One of the original objects of Scouting for Boys was to break through this tradition and to show that, by giving attractive pursuits to the young, one could lead them to develop for themselves the essentials of character, health, and handiness.

It is maintained by many interested in education that concentration on the part of the child is most essential to its successful education, but is most difficult to obtain in school.

I don't know what happens in school, but I know that it is most easy to get concentration outside the school if you only give a child its own task to do in its own way.

The thing is to study the child and see what interests it. Look at a youngster making sand castles on the beach, how he will go at it hour after hour until he overcomes his difficulties and builds up his castle to his satisfaction. He concentrates the whole of his thought and the whole of his physical energy upon it. If you adapt such whole-hearted keenness to educational ends, there is no difficulty about obtaining the concentration desired.

This is exactly what happens in the Scout Movement on a step higher than the castles in the sandbut the success in results is entirely the outcome of study of the child, and of utilising his bentwhatever it may befor his own development.

Does the school teacher get his certificate for knowledge of the child or for knowledge of the three R's ?

The main step to success is to develop, not to repress, the child's character, and at the same time, above all, not to nurse him. He wants to be doing things, therefore encourage him to do them in the right direction, and let him do them in his own way. Let him make his mistakes ; it is by these that he learns experience.

Education must be positive, not negativeactive, not passive. For example, the Scout Law in each of its details says : " A Scout does "this, that, or the other.

Authorities have come along to improve the Scout Law, and not recognising the active side of it, have changed it to the reversea series of " Don'ts." " Don't," of course, is the distinguishing feature and motto of the old-fashioned system of repression, and is a red rag to a boy. It is a challenge to him to do wrong.

Sought knowledge lasts, unsought does not. Every boy is different in ability, temperament, and mind, and yet we try to teach them all in a heap the same things. One will come out top of his class because a subject happens to suit him, but he does not necessarily afterwards come out at the top in life.

We have been criticised in the Scout Movement for offering such a large number of badges for proficiency in so many different lines. The object of this was, not that each boy should try to win all these badges, but to try to meet the enormous variety of characters among boys, and to give each one his chance by selecting his own subject. We do not perpetuate the school custom, whereby abilities may be equally good but unfortunately not in one of the subjects which come into the school curriculum.

The aim of the Proficiency Badge is to encourage self-education on the part of the boy in a subject which interests him."

January 1916 - None other than 'BP'

I see your point(s) -- I was initially mad about the removal, mostly beacause I wanted to copy the good stuff (non personal) like the stories and ideas and save them in a document.. Some really good letters and stories and deep meaningful responses to the attacks on the part of Pappy there..

Your rationale is sound IMO...

Re-build the movement and call it the "Sons of Liberty !!"

I'm copying your writings to a Word doc from now on.. that good stuff that was deleted (letters etc) I planned to save for ideas and reference..

Matter of fact I'm copying my stuff to a doc too !

Nessmuk

Good topic Beavah !!

Looking back, I think my troop (as a Scout) was a bit "rogue", but was very "proper" if that makes any sense to you. Our SM, whom I reflect on as an iconic figure of my youth (another thread) I think did not like the District scene very much.. We had a strong boy led program with a regular committee and plenty of ASM's who "knew" Scouting..

But I always got the sense that we were a bit of an island.. Council Camp a couple years followed by "our own Summer Camp" (imagine that!) a couple years.. They were both fun in their own ways..

Our SM was of the traditional scouting bent and was ex-army but not militaristic. I think now that he did not care for the "money and numbers" end of Scouting along with what was then a developing concept now known as "factory scouting" and "trailer camping".. We had a tight connection to our CO (Legion), and our town, - we used the BSA program and that was enough..

We chopped and sold firewood for our major fundraiser. Local timber companies welcomed us thinning the hardwood in the pine forest.. Thinking back what a great fundraiser for Scouts !

We camped weekends at the sites we worked .. First time I ever made stew from scratch over a fire (was darned good) The adults ran any power equipment and scouts used hand tools and hauled wood around all day.. I digress ! Sorry.. Well just think - "sell stuff tha Council wants you to sell or play lumberjack for 4 or 5 weekends while camping???

Compared to troops today, we must have looked like Pappy's Corps (without the cannons) .

When I was Tfoot (or 2nd class) our first SM died of a heart attack. Our next SM was also my Cubmaster, a family friend, and he had a very tight relationship and was very active with Council and the District.. I still have District Old Timers ask me about him.. I remember the changes (not all bad) that came with that leadership switch..

When I was SPL, he required me (as part of my job) to come to RoundTable every month with him and take notes and participate.. I was usually the only Scout there and I learned a lot as SPL..

We were not as "rogue" after that, but still very special in that we did some things our own way..

In our District a few years back (as we re-kindled the Pack) a "consolidated group" in a nearby town was literally busted up by Council for excessive "rogueness". (some CO empowered rednecks and really bad attitudes mixed with the normal wrong stuff and a lot of money and saftey "issues") We had most of their Cubs coming to our town's Pack even before that..

Seeing the Council literally break them up (revoke charter etc) was proof to me that you can actually push the edge too far and get yourself kicked out..

An idea for a new handbook ! "How to Be a Good Rogue Scout Leader ( but stay out of trouble with the headquarters)..

Bobwhite, "Everything in perspective" must mean "Don't sweat the small stuff" - in which case every point of disagreement becomes classified as small stuff by those who want to avoid the actual matter at hand - which by the way has been brought out very well despite some of the hand-wringing by those afraid of a standard.

Things I am hearing that are great !

-Technical side of how to wear uniform is important.. -but not as important of scout's pride and positive attitude about appearance..

-How looking good (e.g. presenting self and wearing uniform well etc) is in fact related to being good.

- Others here also seem to have this "in perspective" by relating a method or facet of Scouting to one thing or another we all see in society that is not "quite right" (putting it lightly)..like the funeral example.. I say. Is this not like what BP did? I mean - him seeing the sad overall situation for young boys and men in the British Empire and wanting to provide chances to turn it around. Developed a game with methods and practices to build up the boy into a man and good citizen.

So , to keep it in perspective, it's not just a piece of cloth around the neck folks...

"Sloppy Joes"??? I'll be by the campsite for chow -- Jalepenos please!

Phazelag,

I'm with you.. and you are showing plain everyday courage to stand up to those who propagate nonsense and the "it's-all-relative" attitude about the scout uniforms.. It's sadly not just about the uniform as you will find (or may already see).. The uniform is not the only method or facet of Scouting that is being eaten out from inside the movement - dramatic? crazy? Read-on sir. Continue to see the number of "Scouters" that roast you for standing up against what's "plainly sloppy" and "not being afraid to fix something".

About now some furry little brown feller is due to enter from stage left (way left) and rant about adult leaders livin' out der' fantasies through scoutin' an makin' into sum sert' of militry trainin' ..

Your Right LisaBob - Clothing is not something to draw a line in the sand about.. And - The scout uniform is not "just clothing" either - just as the American Flag is not simply red white and blue cloth. Arrangement of those pieces of cloth makes the entire object take on a different meaning..

And "meaning" is what this is about.

To many, the scout uniform is just clothing, but to some, the uniform has real meaning - it is a symbol. I would not be off-base by saying the Scout Uniform is not the only one we could discuss in this context - but that''s where I am.

And it''s not just the uniform ! It''s the "Whatever" crowd that seems to have gained a foothold in the movement.

HighCountry- Sounds like things are going well in "your program", but if you are selecting from the Scout methods cafeteria style, then you don''t have a real Scouting program - period. It sounds like you are working in the right direction, but you will eventually learn that you and the group will always hit lower than you aim..

If you settle for half a uniform you will likely be at half and usually less.. Sounds like you are onto the right approach to inspire them to wear the uniform -as opposed to insisting and stomping feet that they wear it.. You will find that setting a solid and high (but realistic) expectation combined with proper inspiration will be better than being a "unform fanatic" - Again it''s not about the uniform - but what it means..

I would not (and do not) advocate a UP approach to solid uniforming - Sounds like you have a preconceived notion here.. It also is not about a "rulebook" as you put it. The methods of Scouting are not rules.. They are the substance of the movement. Well IMO the real substance is the membership who embrace the ideals and methods.. That includes the uniform.. There''s that "ideals" thing popping up again..

Getting along is good..until you "get along" with the wrong guy/group one day.. It''s a far better trip when living by principle than to "get along".

Oak Tree - Wow ! So I am supposed to only stand up for a principle when it is convenient and people will easily fall into line ?? Whoa .. See - Things are bad.. We have Scouters who are saying "only stand up and challenge wrongs when it''s convenient."

One could do the same thing and take every point of the Scout Law and build a great set of situational ethics that rationalize why we should not take any of them seriously. Start with trustworthy - "You can''t trust anyone anymore !" They say.. "Can''t hardly trust yourself.. Lots of evidence to support that !" And on and on with the rest of the points.

Welcome to my "alternate reality" of Scouting - where I actually aim to live by and support the fundamentals of the movement as opposed to going at it "cafeteria style". My DE happens to support my unit and will be happy to explain the basics to wayward parents who are trying to build their own little version of Scouting.

The real and dangerous "alternate reality" is the one that is being synthesized by people who don''t have a proper grip of what the movement really is supposed to be - or by those who know, but are too limp and spongy to resist the twisting and pressure placed on them by the self-proclaimed revisionists.

As far as browbeating or starting a war, I would not (and did not) advocate that, but I do advocate being respectfully strong in the face of such nonsense, and if they won''t correct themselves or stand to be corrected by a proper authority, then I advocate leaving them to their own ruin and building up a new unit the right way. The best boys and parents will flock to this new unit in time.

The vinegar /honey thing is a nice crutch for saying "Be nice". That is all fine at the start of the discussion, but when dealing with nonsense such as that committee''s position, a bit of pressure is acceptable after they have shown that they don''t wish to be bothered with fact or principle (i.e. the nonsense begins to show).

As far as deserting, that would be a favor to rid the Pack of the twisters. I learned long ago not to be blackmailed into accepting such nonsense at the threat of "I''ll leave". If they leave (as I would in the event I described above) then best wishes to them as they go. Don;t let the door... you know what! I don''t threaten parents or other leaders with "I''m gonna leave you high and dry!" and I would not accept the same from them. People today seem to get so dependent on approval from and inclusion by others that they get afraid to stand up and object or vote with their feet. It seems some will comprimise almost anything to "stay with the unit" and "be Nice".

Being a good person is much more important than being a nice person.

Uniform bribes generally backfire or don''t work.. Boys today are so overstimulated, bribed and candy-coaxed in every other activity that a uniform "reward" just adds to "the list"..

People (boy people too) respect clarity and boys crave structure.. Clearly state that "Scouts wear uniforms. It''s part of the program. Here''s why...and so on"

As usual, the adults on this committee have taken things too far in that they have zero authority to decide what constitutes a scout uniform. These maybe well-intentioned folks need to be edumucated ! Where do these people get these ideas? Too little knowledge + too much power = I''m on the Committee. I can make up the rules. I can turn Cub Scouting into what I think it should be."

Set that Committee straight nicely and invite the District Executive to the Committe meeting that night.. See if they don''t back off and nod up and down when the DE says "MomtoEli is right folks. Where''d you get the idea that you can authorize changes to the uniform?". If the CC get''s ticked and quits then he''s likely into it for the wrong reasons in the first place. !

I''m wondering what happened to the furry critter with the flat tail who will show up and rant about Scouters like me living out their military fantasies with the program - just because we stand by the fundamentals of the movement... Ayy? Here little guy - got some tree meat for you. Come eer boy !

MomtoEli, If I can, let me suggest that you are working against yourself by re-defining the uniform (the jeans substitute).. This absolutely sends the message (whether intended or not) that the uniform pants are not important and therefore teh rest of it is optional too..I know that the intent was probably to make it easier for them to affors the uniform or to be in uniform, but my experience in Scouts and other places is that as soon as you lower the bar, most will stop trying and will consistently underachieve by some amount.. I went through this when re-establishing a Pack a few years back.. Many boys already had navy blue school unfoirm pants and my wife and other moms talked me (of all people)into accepting those as a substitute.. When I heard a member of the Committee tell anew parent to just get wear jeans or Walmart blue pants, I realized my error and I have been working to fix it ever since..

What about the "It''s OK to wear the baseball uniform because they are trying to fit Cub Scouts into their life"?? I made a similar analogy on another thread, but do you think that a little league coach would accept a boy showing up at the game in the Cub uniform because "they are trying to fit it all in".!!???. Unacceptable.

The Scout program can help parents learn too - how not to overcommit - how to establish priorities and make decisions.. I am sad to see boys leave scouts to play in travel teams etc... But I am happy that they and their parents actually made a decision about what they consider more important. I don;t agree with their decision, but that''s another story.

Tell the boys and parents up front that there is a committement required, and that in return they will get their max benefit from the Scouting experience. This establishes expectations up front and saves everyone hassle and pain.. I.e. more of a win-win.. Those who walk away saying "we can''t fit that in" now won''t become the parent who never shows and helps, or never bothers to crack the book with their son, or never even sews a badge, or blows off the uniform etc etc ..We don''t have a giant pack but I like to think we have a good active pack. This is at the core of my talk at joining night.. tomorrow !! Eeesh I gotta get ready for tomorrow..

Seton - Let's start with "The Book of Woodcraft" the chapter on "Games for Camp'

- "Arrow Fight"

- "Hostile Spy"

- "Scout Messenger"

- "A challenge for Scout messenger"

- "Apache Relay Race"

And then there's the chapter on campfire stories and Indian character - which very much revolves around character traits exhibited by those in combat..

The section on Indian Dog Soldiers - thsoe responsibel for maintaining order and peace in the camp (and not by their diplomatic skills either)..

Bottom line with Seton - He loved and based his philosophy on Indian life -- and Indians loved war - to their very end sadly..

I can think of a few Beard refs, but my Beard books are boxed up...I will go to Pine Tree and see what's there..

Later

Oh yeah -- It's Nessmuk (no "c") thanks.. Look him up too.

I just returned from WEBELOS 6 Day Resident camp with my oldest son., The camp's TP had pairs of the Venturer Gray cargo pants... I liked their style and fit and practicality for typical scout outer wear. They were hemmable too..

Wow - Wouldn't it be great if the Boy Scout Handbook was a "fit in the pocket" book again - referencing excerpt from Scoutstuff website below ..

Excerpt...

Stone-washed gray uniform pants are 100% cotton canvas duck cloth with a Venturing label on the front right pocket. Features an adjustable waistband and cargo pocket large enough to hold the Venturer/Ranger Handbook!

Kudu - So that's your website ! Thank you for that wonderful resource ! I get sucked into the materials for days and days ! I recall your Scout Trouser comparison page and have to believe that it was a large part of what inpsired the move to the "Kenya Convertibles" or "Switchbacks"as they are now called !

I only wish the were more rugged.

Warmest regards,

Nessmuk

Ditto to John in KC on his praise about the boy-run troop voting on the neckerchief style..

I was a Scout from late 70's to mid 80's (uniform transition days) in a very much boy run troop -and strong with the Patrol Method.

When I was SPL we voted to ditch the BSA neckerchief for a custom all black necker with a skull graphic from one of Megadeath's album cover's from the time...I actually voted for the Molly Hatchet graphic but was outnumbered by the Scouts in the "Metal Head" Patrol. My "Southern Rockers" patrol had already disbanded for troop leadership positions.

On a campout a little later, we voted to shave and spray paint our Scoutmaster's head while he slept in his tent- voting is fun but it is different than doing !

Kraut , Take a look at this...

MTM says

"Am I the only one who has ever noticed a teenage boy standing a little straighter and looking more confidant when they put on a scout uniform, because he is identifying with being a scout? Am I the only one who has seen cubs be better behaved when they button and tuck in their uniform shirts?

And you end with..

"....just be sure not to be lamely justifying or militarising scout uniforms..."

So.. somebody draws an age-old conclusion that someone (a boy someone) who takes care in their appearance (uniform or not) is INTERNALLY motivated to act more responsibly and with more dignity.. and you respond about "militarizing" the uniform.. MTM did not even mention the miltary indirectly.

Maybe you don't realize it and are so used to being hammered by the anti-military Scouters that you just 'let it out'..

Scouting needs to stick to its principles - even while the rest of the society is slipping down the rocks - And for the last XX years, society is pushing that "sloppy is cool" .

I hope that we get green Scout/Scouter switchbacks like the Cub Switchbacks -- (hemmable) and different material.

....That so many Scouters are anti-military?

Wow.. I never knew that there were so many Scouters terrified of "militarizing" the Scout Uniform - That's what I keep seeing over and over here.. You all know that BP stated he was "anti-war" BUT NOT anti-military" - nor should we be. The anti-military theme here is fundamentally hypocritical..

"Scout" - origins as a military term - with unending non-military applications.,

The uniform - originally a practical field and street outfit for with origins in the experiences of those who spent the most time afield - the military..

To acknowledge the military origins of Scouting and to adopt uniform features that make sense based on field experience does not mean we are creating a paramilitary force or even encouraging it. That is absolute paranoia.

Cargo pocket -invented by the military to carry claymore mines. -- Should we not have cargo pockets now?

Drab natural colors - BP said Boy Scouts should "blend in" with natural surrounding (for a host of non-military reasons)- Should we now wear everything white or blaze orange?

Epaulettes - a practical means to show rank or affiliation -- Gotta cut em off now?

Berets - First used in the military by British tank crews looking for a brimless practical piece of headgear that would not show grease (Black wool) -- Are all beret-wearing 70's/80's Scouts/Scouters now classed as para-military types?

Campaign Hat - Super practical field hat that most Scouters don't even begin to understand.. Based on BP's choosing a hat with Canadian Cowboy/Scout origins because of its great utility.. Do you suppose BP said (while wringing his fingers) "Oh... we don't want to look like American/Canadian cowboys now.. so we better not choose that hat...oh nooooo..."

Look at 90% of the Scouting games in the books - of military origin.

Who here bans all night-time camp games like "capture the flag".. ???

How about "Silent Sentry" ?- a game most Cubs will play 10000 times and not be tired of it.

And the list could go on and on until bedtime folks !

It's not hard to see why the movement is having such a hard time.. It's full of people who are trying so hard NOT TO BE something that they forget TO BE what was originally intended.

I'm convinced - There is definitely an anti-military element in the Scouter community - That's their right to think that way - but it's definitely out of line with the principles of our nation - and we are still the BS"A" -- How do we teach boys to be great Citizens with an anti-military attitude so prevalent among Scouters that people are afraid for the uniform to have some heritage and roots in the military?

Now it will be easy to accuse me of trying to make the Scouts into a military force or something like that -- No worries... I am a strong Seton & Beard style Scouting advocate too..

Got Buckskins folks?

John in KC..Sorry if I appeared to offend or draw an offending comparison.. Your experience is just that - your real experience - and I won't try to rebutt it.

To clarify, my comparison between military and scouting uniforms was not in how it is issued (or not), but in the fact that the military has had some real significant uniform and personal equipment practicality and suitability "issues" for the last couple decades.. They keep trying to improve (note recent ACU's and some new load bearing gear) but they keep missing the mark in several ways. More specifically, my comment was aimed at the daily "office wear" the air force and army have been issuing for years- It's not anything as good as the khakis or utility greens my father wore in the 50's. Why did so many things just seem so much more functional and simple then? I just pulled his khaki shirt from the closet - sharp looking, tough as nails, a little heavy , but purpose-driven. To get into more details on the military uniform comparison would be too off-topic here, but send me a private message and we can correspond.

Thanks for

#1) Simple and uniform - One style shirt.

#2) Practical field wear - Arm protection - from brush, wind, sun, dirt, cold - Check out every serious resourse on practical outdoor clothing in the desert or tropics -- It all reccommends LONG SLEEVES -- That's from experience and good ole fashion common sense!

#3) When working and having a "mental fit" about heat - roll em up!! A practical BSA shirt would have Swiss tabs to support this function more neatly and uniformly.. BP says this is the sign of a "Scout getting to work" and looking at pictures (or even around the office at work ) I gotta agree. When I see other engineers, managers with their dress shirts with the sleeves rolled up, I kno wthey are probably really into something at that time.. When they are down, it's "presentation or meeting time with the boss"

#4) Short sleeves are signs of Parlour Scouting - just like the buis driver uniforms for the army and air force..

....about the "mental fit" comment, it's not a stab, it's real.. What feels best is not always best - like people who say seriously "drink some liquor to warm up" ..We shoudl all know this does just the opposite and makes temperature control more difficult for our body.

So in extreme heat, the short sleeves make you "feel cool" because you don't have that close to skin feeling of the sleeves.. But in fact if the material is properly chosen, and the shirt design/cut and size is right, long sleeves actually make you cooler. No kidding !

Appreciate the challenging thoughts Beavah .. We gotta always be able to answer soundly when someone says "why?"

Gotta say though --

Scout uniform DOES offer an important role in "identification" - to identify Scouts out of the rest of the crowd for pragmatic AND symbolic purposes. Also in terms of self identification with the Patrol and movement (a significant part of boy's self development) That is what we are all about. I recall reading an older item of Scout literature addressing Scout helping out in a crisis / emergency situation - and it emphasized that wearing the uniform is a key part of getting citizens to acknowledge your role - otherwise you are just a questionable kid in plain clothes directing traffic, serving food, etc..

Symbolic purposes are many too.. Removing the uniform from the methods significantly (like done in other countries) is a step towards diluting Scouting down into a "just like everyone else" group.. similar to what's being attempted with our values .. Regardless of the exceptions there is a correlation between the expectations of our values and character and our "look.

I think you are saying we only need the uniform around other Scouts - and that just does not align with my sense of Scouting nor my experience where at Scout-only events (except for Jamboree) it seems to be a great excuse for many to NOT wear the uniform - argued for the same reasons (Hey we all know we're scouts - no reason to wear it"

As far as taking off the uniform immediately I have new Tigers who's parents say they are wearing the uniform around the house and won't take it off.. I realize these are not teenagers - But when teenagers internally IDENTIFY with the uniform and their Patrol and the BSA (as long as the outfit is not too goofy - thanks Oscar!!!) they will weare it for the right reasons.

As far as "play actin as military types" - old story that says more about the person who says it than who's he's talking about.. The word "Scout" is a military term - period... Our roots our derived from a military setting.. True..BP sought to de-emphasize this some into a Peace Scouts concept - But he clearly stated he was not anti-military and did not attempt to hide or camoflage the military aspects of the movement. Every group that has attempted to do this (Royal Rangers for example) just plainj misses the mark in a big way (IMO).. If you want to go look at Seton's Woodcraft Indians or Beard's Daniel Boone scene, you will even get hint of militarism there.. although not a such..

As far as "spit n shine and making us proud" - nothing wrong with rightfully feeling good about seeing boys who take themselves and their uniforms seriously , have lots of fun and and are impressingt the heck out of people with their actions and looks.. If you don't feel good when you see that (especially if you helped make it happen) - something is wrong with you.. not them. -

Gotta goo - my fingers are tired and the boys are pouring maple syrup in the pancake mix..