Nachamawat

moosetracker,

I was aware that 18 - 20 year olds could hold those positions my response was aimed at dg98adams that seemed to be acting as though this Eagle Scout should sit on the side lines for 3 years until he is 21 before he should be allowed to interact with the troop anymore. I think that is simply balderdash!

A quick Google search returned this: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34405.pdf which is the BSA Merit Badge Counselor Application Form with a revision date of 2001. It shows the age requirement as 18 years old so it has been this way for at least 9 years. I don't see the problem here. You say this young adult Scouter is a highly qualified individual, no? He has been involved in Scouting since he was a Tiger Scout and has remained dedicated enough to the program to earn Eagle Scout.

Yet, somehow he should have to sit back for three years and cool his heels some and learn some more maturity and about life in some other ways before he can return his expertise and knowledge back to the youth in the Scouting program.

Why is that?

TNScouterTroop seems to have a flair for the royal we as though it gives more of an air of authority. I will simply tell you how I feel from a simply persons point of view!

I do not understand the need to make a foundation of Orthodox faith the basis of Boy Scouting. Lord Baden Powell said, "No man is much good unless he believes in God and obeys His laws. So every Scout should have a religion....Religion seems a very simple thing: First: Love and serve God. Second: Love and serve your neighbour." (Scouting for Boys)

There are twelve interweaving and coexisting Scout Laws not just one. Each of the laws has a valid life lesson to teach the Scout and yet only one law seems to receive any immediate reaction when it is spoken out loud. When a Scout or Scouter walks into an assembly of Scouts and says a Scout is Reverent there is an immediate expectation of silence and removal of head gear. No one immediately starts to do their assigned patrol duty when someone states a Scout is Helpful. Or has any other instantaneous reaction to the other eleven Laws.

We as Scouters are delivering a program designed to provide the following aims:

Growth in moral strength and character

Participating citizenship

Development in physical, mental, and emotional fitness

I think Scouting is an additional tool that society can use to hone our future leaders and followers to be better productive, educated, and well-rounded citizens. The other parts of the puzzle are the parents choice of church (and how often they attend), the parents choice of school (public or private), and the other thing that the parent chooses to allow the child to be involved in.

I think I, as a Scouter, can do my role in this very effectively without ever showing the full extent of my religious belief, the true nature of my political belief, and even the true nature of my sexual orientation (although I happen to be a heterosexual male, it should not really matter if I could keep my sexual activities and comments completely to myself just as I do in the other examples.) I can and do counsel the citizenship merit badge series apolitically. I can and do counsel the Scouts on the role of religion in Scouting without showing a religious bias.

I think if you want to have a more fervent religious experience for your child than the public school is offering then by all means send them to private school or home school them. If you want to have your child enriched in a more athletic environment in school seek out a more athletically competitive school or inquire into the process of beginning a charter school. But why do you feel that you need to change a process that was not designed for your specific desires and subvert the process for everyone else? BP said every Scout should have a religion he did not say your religion!

Frank, I see your point but I don't think it addresses Bacchus' concerns. I am also an ASM in my son's troop. I do not feel that I give him any special attention, yet I worry that others do. In fact, my son would be the first to tell anyone that he feels I may be too hands off related to him. Sometimes he would like me to intervene when a problem arises but if safety is not a concern I will remain apart from the conflict and let them work it out.

Our troop took 7 Scouts to a national weather center to assist in the completion of the weather MB. However, only the two Scouts that I have contact have completed the badge over the 6 months since the trip, one of which was my son. I worry that looks like I am too involved, as well.

With all due respect, Beavah:

But just culling these all from the same thread has me thinking Hello Pot, this is the Kettle!

Posted: Thursday, 8/19/2010: 12:50:24 PM

Interesting version of tolerance and scoutly reverence yeh have.

Posted: Thursday, 8/19/2010: 4:15:18 PM

I gotta tell yeh, as a non-Catholic and scouter, that I find da prejudice and slurs about da faith of fellow scouters quite disgusting. If that's what some of you are conveying to youth in da BSA, I wish you'd quit da program and go crawl back under whatever rock yeh came from.

Posted: Wednesday, 8/18/2010: 2:06:21 PM

I'm not a Catholic, mind. I think they're a bit odd. But I don't much care for smears.

Posted: Wednesday, 8/18/2010: 3:42:31 PM

Gern, you've got me defending da papists, of all things.

Posted: Wednesday, 8/18/2010: 4:27:13 PM

Yah, do yeh really want to go there? Justifying arguments based on stereotypes because they have a correlational basis?

I reckon you're only going to get me to make fun of da professional competence of psychologists again.

Posted: Thursday, 8/19/2010: 8:12:36 PM

You're not making personal attacks, eh? You're making broad smears against an entire group of people. I'm saying it's disgusting and shameful, because I believe it's disgusting and shameful. I recognize that yeh think da straw man argument you're proposing is rational, but I'm telling you it isn't.

There are 11 other Scout Laws too you know. It seems I recall something about being Courteous, Kind, and perhaps even Friendly. These quotes dont seem to convey those ideals to me. Seems that maybe you need to reconsider your approach in sharing your thoughts with others because you are certainly not representing a Scout-like behavior to me.

DanKroh sais:

>>"AIDS research is not my specialty, either. Did I every say there was *not* promiscuity in the gay community? Nope. But an *average* of 110 partners? Nah, until I see it in a legitimate scientific study, not gonna bite on that one. What's the *average* number of partners among heterosexuals, btw, just for comparison?"

Perdidochas,

you seemed surprised there would be a security concern for the president among all those courteous Boy Scouts that booed his taped performance and the Scouters that allowed them to boo. I am not surprised. There should be an ever vigilant security concern surrounding this and every president. I have friends who were in the Gulf during the first Gulf War and when the president came to speak to them they all had to turn in the bolts for their rifles before the assembly. Just in case you know.

I think that it is actually my role as an adult leader to be apolitical in my dealing with Scouts. I should do my best to impart upon them the importance of good citizenship and the values of our freedoms. I am quite certain that I can answer all their questions concerning the legislative, executive, and judicial branches of the Federal government and the other more local governmental roles without allowing any of my personal biases to enter the equation.

Our Troop was recently visited by a member of Congress. I did not care what his politics were while he was addressing the next generation of voters. The Congressman stayed non-partisan during his time with the Scouts and I think all went well. He understood the level the Scouts were on and seemed to understand that he was not there to garner votes, but rather to enlighten a future generation.

Politicization of these young men should occur in the home and we all know it does. My role is to remind them through actions and deed that the Office is due respect not necessarily the incumbent. I do that with my own children. We always refer to the president as President _________ and other elected officials by the title of their office. I expect the same respect from my children of their teachers, religious leader, and even Scout leaders.

It seems to me that the entire Scouting program would be better delivered if we allowed the parents to do the actual rearing and educating of the Scouts while we are there to step in and provide a level mentoring role. Supporting the parents in this way does not require me to espouse the parents political, religious, or other social opinions.

If we are all fellow Arrowmen, as some here have pointed out, then why do some feel the need to point out the difference in "rank" between Ordeal, Brotherhood, and Vigil members, youth elected, or adult selected by wearing different styled pocket flaps or distinctive pocket rockets when not wearing the sash? I thought the movement away from distinctive flaps that were the norm through the late '70s was an attempt to equalize the levels of "brotherhood" in the "Order" after all. I have yet to seal my membership in the OA, I am an Ordeal member from the class of 1976 and I will seek my Brotherhood this fall as my son takes his Ordeal. I had a very long break in my cheerful service but I am back and willingly involved. I am not seeking accolades or applause. I am simply looking to serve my fellow Scouts and Scouting. I was honored to selected by my peers in 1976, OMG, could it have been that long ago, and I hoped I would be around to serve again. I do not need a special patch to validate my history!

I would like to offer a point. Our troop traveled to summer camp out of council this year and we were lucky enough to have two more registered adults than needed to drive the vehicles. I only point that out because we ran into a medical emergency with an adult leader who needed to remain hospitalized at the end of the week. Thankfully we had the manpower to return home with all our Scouts, equipment, and vehicles in one convoy because we had extra drivers along. This became really apparent after another recent camping trip where a Scout was injured and a late night hospital run caused a delay for all because we only had two drivers and two vehicles.

So perhaps some planning should be considered for a long trip like penst8 is talking about including a contingency plan for illness or other emergency involving a driver or requiring the driver to remain awake too long to be alert for a return trip on the scheduled day.

I stand humbly corrected I really meant to say medal and not badge, as in cloth type, sew on badge. But thanks for the helpful nudge, emb201.

shortridge said: "You can't wear the actual badges, thus the (sort of)." I thought adults were permitted to were the Eagle badge at formal occasions, as stated in the insignia guide (http://tinyurl.com/yzadu8o)

But I guess by pointing this out I will forever be relegated to the dreaded "uniform police" gawd how I hate that term.

Oak Tree you said: "It's not just because it's "youth earned" - there are lots of things you can earn as a Scout that you can continue to wear as an adult...Eagle knot (sort of), Arrow of Light knot (sort of)..."

I was wondering what you meant by sort of?

BDPT00, how do you feel about the World Crest Wood Badge patch that has begun to make the circuit (http://tinyurl.com/n5akwt). Would that patch disqualify the wearer from staffing your course, too? I am just curious.

Why do you need to receive a coin for Wood Badge when you get the leather thong and Beads? You see this is where I think that Gern may have been leaning with the thread about wearing the uniform to boost one's ego. But then again I'm no mind reader.

Why can't people simply be satisfied with the level of recognition that comes with course completion? Why do they need to keep piling it on? Critter this, critter that, critter dinners, Wood Badge CSP's, the circle badge around the world scouting badge, enough already . . . I get it you have your Wood Badge!

If a Scouter earns the knot then they are wrong if they do not wear the knot. Seems that would be the guidance properly prescribed by the insignia guide.

Why is it presumed that only youth earned knots (Eagle Scout, religious, and Arrow of Light) are okay but not any others? Those others indicate continued dedication and diligence to the cause of Scouting to me. But wear them properly and in accordance with the insignia guide. Do not wear extra embellishment that are not authorized or demean the purpose of Scouting. We are leaders that should be all about setting the proper example for the future leaders of America.

Scoutldr said: "Just like the upcoming Swine Flu shot campaign. Wait till all the seniors realize that they are at the bottom of the priority list. (The top of the list is school kids, pregnant women, and healthcare providers). That's healthcare rationing and it's already coming to a neighborhood near you."

H1:N1 or a close relative virus has been in the wild before around 40-45 years ago, therefore, "boomers" and seniors have a certain amount of resistance having already been exposed to the virus. No big conspiracy to keep anyone from getting vital treatment, rather it is an example of placing the emphasis on getting the limited treatment available to the potentially targeted age groups that will be most affected by the virus; babies, toddlers, school-age children, and pregnant mothers.

I have also seen the juggernaut of managed care make nonsensical decisions in my care. My insurer had no qualms in paying for a sleep study to determine why I had difficulty sleeping but they would not pay for a prescription of Ambien. I understand there may be no perfect way to proceed in this health care mess but the current process is not working. We are proceeding too quickly in this debate, but can you imagine the national psyche if we were to drag this debate out over months. Nothing would come of it. Everyone would throw their hands up in disgust and go home defeated.

I am not a big fan of Presidential Press Secretary Robert Gibbs, however, he made a good point the other day responding to a reporters question: the reporter asked something to the extent of how does the President feel about the anger being expressed by the public at the town hall meetings. Here Mr. Gibbs stopped her and said, with all do respect have you been to all the meetings or have you only seen the clips on the media shows? We are only seeing the sensationalized clips, the ones that sell commercials, that keep people tuned in. We are not being told about the invitational only meetings, like the one held in Macon, GA by Senator Saxby Chambliss. Don't imagine there was a whole lot of screaming and finger pointing in that meeting (and we did not see a news clip about it either.)

By all means "We, the People" need to be involved in this most vital decision. However, we need to step away from the big-top circus environment being spun by both sides of the aisle and make calm informed decisions. We need to not allow ourselves to swayed by those who are in position to make the most money from this; the insurance companies, the trial lawyers, and even the AMA. There are serious and moral decisions affecting everyone and all sides of the issue must be examined rationally. Not sure we are being served well by any media outlet on this matter.

Send an email to your Representative in Congress (citizenship in the nation) they will not respond but their point man will. You can even establish a dialog if their person is good.

Mike Rowe is an Eagle Scout and the host of TV's Dirty Jobs and other programs as well as the new voice of the Ford Motor Company.

>"Maybe we should also ask the boys to get rid of their patrol emblems and patrol flags with any awards hanging from them. We don't want them to offend anyone not in their group, right?"

Those patrol members are actively involved in their current patrol or the patrol itself has a legacy that is being passed down within the troop to new members. This is different than all "Owls', "Beavers", or "Eagles" from different WB troops and training experiences flocking together like birds of a feather. Good on ya for earning your beads, 'nuff said!

>"Finally, there is this thing called "fun" - you should try it some time."

Some of my younger Scouts think running with open knives and hatchets is fun maybe I should let them do that. I think having fun has nothing to do with the initial point of this thread which was why in the world do WBers have to wear an unofficial patch, in addition to their beads, when they know it is against the insignia guide? (How does that set the example of being trustworthy, loyal, obedient, or thrifty among the other laws?)

>> Could you please explain to me when it would not be prudent

>> to wear Wood Badge beads in uniform.

>When using a table saw?

Put 'em in your shirt or better yet take 'em off for safety sake. They do come off, don't they?

This is not a discussion about the merits of WB for me. This is a discussion of the need of WBers to over adorn themselves in WB regalia. I get it you have been to WB, you are entitled to wear the vaunted beads. I have no problem with that but that is where I draw the line. Why do you need to have a bumper sticker, a stave, a hat, a CSP, a special patrol patch, gather in patrol groups (cliques) at all functions, stuffed animals representing your patrol in your camping gear. Get over it. Why can't people simply quietly wear their beads and show the value of their training through their work and deeds?

I have no envy. At this point I have no desire to join their club either!

Could this be used as a lesson in the Gern Badge?

You are right, of course, that it should not be a test because the requirements have already been met. However, I have been told that a recent BOR in my area has indeed included tests of knot knowledge. I was not included in the BOR but know someone who was there. The person asking the question was on their first BOR so maybe it will not happen again.

MV Scouter says "No one complains, and there are some instances when the beads are not prudent to wear, so the patch is the identity."

Could you please explain to me when it would not be prudent to wear Wood Badge beads in uniform. Are they not an accepted part of the Boy Scout uniform? How would an unauthorized badge be more prudent to wear than something that is actually presented for completing training?

That simply defies logic!

Groovy is making a reappearance around these parts . . . sure hope LSMFT doesn't! But I understood your point. I had to google that to see what it meant just missed that by an edge of a generation.

LSMFT I see what you mean Lucky Strike Means Fine Tobacco has everything to do with this thread!