Nachamawat

Tokala and desertrat have the right way of looking at this subject. While I understand the POV that Johnny may not be getting enough male role modeling at home anymore that does not mean that he can only get that from a male Scoutmaster. For quite along time now women have been pulling their own weight in life and in Scouting when others have left them down. I am not in favor of an all female troop BTW because that is not what life is all about either.

Kids need to understand that life skills require working with people of other genders, other races, creeds, religions, and nationalities. This does not magically occur when they turn 18 and are thrown out into the adult world. Why can't we help them along the way?

I am not suggesting that I prejudge a person simply because I see Wood Badge beads. Because I do not feel I do.

I am saying why do so many Wood Badge recipients feel the need to over adorn themselves in Wood Badge regalia? Our council has a WB CSP, now this world crest, and the walking sticks covered with bushy tails, plastic figurines, and medallions. Why can they not simply be satisfied with the beads the were awarded for the completion of the course and their ticket? Those other things are the trappings that make it appear to me that they are forgetting about the youth and concentrating on themselves and their own accomplishments instead!

I am an Eagle Scout. I do not have a bumper sticker, I do not wear a ring, I do not have the dinner plate sized patch on a brag jacket. It is one aspect of who I am. But I am also a father of four, a combat veteran of 12 years, a college graduate, and many other things. However, I do not feel any motivation to knock someone over with a first impression of any of the things I mentioned. You get to meet the whole package and make your own decision about me. Those others they paint a picture first so sometimes I get the wrong idea about them upfront, sorry.

I am frankly pretty tired of the term uniform police. Seems we wear a uniform to appear the same in appearance, hence uniform. That is why there would be a insignia guide and inspection sheet.

We as adult leaders should be in the habit of abiding by the Scout Law and setting a good example for our Scouts to follow. We should wear our uniforms properly and present ourselves as we would want our Scouts to present themselves.

I am not saying anything specific here, but, I am a veteran and I can not imagine ever appearing anywhere in a uniform that was not properly adorned, fit, and turned out. I know we are not a paramilitary organization, I know we are not all about all things military, however, if we are saying that the uniform is one of the 8 methods of Scouting then why do we not do it right? Why do we as adult leaders allow other leaders to simply to whatever it is they want to do?

As a point of reference our troop attended an OOC camp this summer. The camp was being inspected while we were there. The inspector wore a "instigator" patch where her "Trained" patch should have been. I guess she thought that was funny or cute, however, I found it to be trite. She was not there representing her Troop or herself, she was there to certify that the camp met the requirement set forth to be an accredited camp. So I am nitpicking her uniform. What other parts of her duty did she think was insignificant enough to make light of? Maybe the kitchen cleanliness was not that important enough to her either.

We are and should be all equal in Scouting.

It appears to me that Wood Badge is nothing more than a clique. Membership of patrols becomes so pervasive in the lives of people. Walking sticks have become living memorials to their patrol critters with embellishments from furry tails, to feathers, to plastic animals, to wood carvings and medallions. Groups form at gatherings of foxes and eagles, each slamming on the other. At least in the SR there seems to be a slipping from the boy centered concept of Scouting to an adult centered concept. Time to reel it in and get back to the purpose of Scouting. It is the YOUTH members of the program!

racingmom: I believe we do not set policy but that we should follow the prescribed guidelines and petition those that establish the guidelines for change. I think that once Webelos cross over they should wear the Arrow of Light square knot above the left pocket because I think it looks better. But I do not set policy I simply try to set a good example for the Scouts to follow. (But then again I am one of the silly ones that does not like those funny little untrainable or potty trained patches some people want to wear.)

Bottom line to me is wear the uniform properly or just skip it.

As I sat in Mass today I reflected about this problem. Then I was surprised to hear the Gospel reading was Mark 6:7-13 about Jesus sending His Disciples out "two by two" with only a hiking stick to spread His Word. Talk about irony. If this does not point out that a Scout is reverent by working on camp staff, what does? These boys and girls on staff are using their gifts to assist Scouts become better citizens and better Scouts. They are using their talents to help grow the next generation, perhaps the way some of us did over the years. Can't that simply be seen as a method of worship, too?

Our troop attended an OOC camp that was not fortunate enough to have an on-staff chaplain. The schedule called for a Sunday and Wednesday vesper service. Although the Sunday service fell through, we adults pulled together on Wednesday night and held an impromptu service of our own. Perhaps, the staff could do the same at BigBee's camp and hold a nondenominational service if the desire for communal prayer is that strong. But then again, why not simply say a prayer of thanks while moving from one activity to another during the day, isn't God the only one that needs to know you are praying?

Being in God's great outdoors surrounded by the beauty of nature what a better place to practice a Scout is reverent on your own. Take a moment of solitude while walking down the trail to drink in the beauty and solitude of God's creation and say your own simple words of thanks. Why must someone's worship be done communally to be validated? Is my silent prayer not as worthy as my congregational prayer? Does my prayer of thanks for being permitted to awaken another day fall on deaf ears simply because I utter it from my bedside?

These Boy Scouts are providing a responsible, mature, and reverent service to their fellow Scouts by serving on camp staff, a moment of thoughtful silence on their part, deep in the woods of a council camp, carry a far greater message than my little utterance of thanks ever could.

What Barry was talking about is where I was heading with my comment. If the boys want to get together as a group and play laser tag or paint ball off the clock, as it were, I say go for but not as a Scouting related activity. Simply refrain from putting anything that is not G2SS related on the calendar. Seems pretty simple to me.

Scouting is an avenue to a better life for our kids but not the only way. Is it?

So let me get this straight. . . the SPL has a birthday party in the family pool and since most of the invitees are members of his Scout troop they need to bring their swim tags and place them on the swim board and maintain constant contact with their swim buddies at this non-troop sponsored swim activity. Where do we as Scout(er)s draw the line? I understand that we are supposed to live by the Scout oath and law in our daily lives, yet, does that mean we must live by the G2SS in every activity we under take? Does that also apply to LNT? I think that will make a number of my friends upset when they will have to curtail their off-roading activities!

This discussion reminds me of the email that makes the rounds from time to time about the boomers that survived all the terrible things we did like drinking from hoses, riding our bikes from dawn to dusk, and everything else. Laser tag is not going to forever scar this generation anymore than we were scarred by getting cut from the little league baseball team because we were not able to field well enough. Time to get a grip on reality and start worrying about things that really matter.

I worked as a CIT for the Penns Woods Council in central PA back in 1977. We had three council camps (Camp Seph Mack, Camp Roaring Run, and Camp Wopsononock) but summer camp was only offered at the last two and one staff covered both camps. We actually set up and trained week one in the first camp and then moved to the second camp three weeks later. The second camp was set up by the OA but torn down by the paid staff. I think I was paid around $75 a week for 8 weeks. I was responsible for a few merit badges but I simply cannot remember which ones. I spent most of my time (and money) at the rifle range. Pretty sure that my Philmont trek (1975) and camp staff experience got me elected to the OA.

Great time and great memories of that summer!

"And in these days of electronic communication, a counselor that lives a ways away isn't that big a hurdle, at least for those badges."

Beavah

What an interesting twist that is Beavah. I bet that makes for some meaningful adult association. I will get send him/her an email and get all my work done. Seems like a silly comparison to the discussion here.

Lisabob,

I did not mean that the boy should not reach out and experience adult association. I certainly did not imply that parents should counsel all his merit badges. I think that in an area of special interest, that has few merit badge counselors, the Scout will be made to suffer the consequences. Oddly enough there are only two or three reading counselors in our council (depending on how current the list is) and they all live 45 miles away. Who should be responsible for recruiting more counselors? Oh well, I guess there are a hundred different badges so the scout can simply pick another one! Rather than be counseled by his own parent.

I do not understand the concept that if a parent signs off on their own son's Merit Badge it is somehow showing favoritism. If they are registered as merit badge counselors why not, after all a Scout is Trustworthy.

My wife is an educator with a Master's Degree in Education. If she were to sign up as the counselor for scholarship and reading merit badges why is she less qualified to counsel her own son? Why can't a father sign up to be a MB counselor for home repairs and not counsel his own son when they work together on home improvements (and help to develop that bonding thing at the same time)?

It is my experience that parents are actually more stringent with their own children than others.

I have given responding further to this thread a lot of thought. I have decided that I need to wade further into the discussion, so after donning my waders, here I go:

I must wholeheartedly agree with GoldFox and the sentiment that those complaining the loudest simply want the rest to know how religious they are.

It seems to me that school prayer falls into the same realm of our discussion here (a whole new can of worms!) Please let me explain. There are 168 hours in a week. Children are in school for 30 to 32 hours a week and they presumably sleep 42 hours a week. That leaves around 96 hours a week that these students could be otherwise involved in religious education or devotion. Perhaps those students spend five minutes a day waiting on the corner for their bus to arrive, is this not enough time to utter devotional prayer to their Maker? Additionally, on a non-camping week these students, who might be involved in Scouting, spend an hour or more in church in devotion.

Why can we not simply, throughout the time we are communing with nature allow these boys the opportunity to connect, in their own way, with the One they perceive as their God? Why must adults formalize the process into pews and churches? If God created the great outdoors, why is not simply appropriate that we, mere mortals, spend time in His natural beauty in awe and wonder?

The Pack that I used to be associated with attended Scout Sunday en masse. All the adult leaders were there except one. This leader made his absence conspicuous by saying that the CO does not practice his type of religion. They use music and musical instruments in their services. He also felt that the church (United Methodist) did not preach from the bible. It seemed very odd to me, a simple man, that he was willing to volunteer his time to Cub Pack that was chartered by this church, therefore, allowing his name to be associated with them to all that are aware of the Pack, yet, he could not condone their religious service for one Sunday. I am a catholic by birth and upbringing, yet my local parish does not offer a Scouting program. Should I punish my son by not allowing him to participate in Scouting because another denomination is chartering his troop? I think the very idea is hogwash.

I am not involved in Scouting, and neither is my son, because we think it will lead either of us to salvation. I am involved because I was a Scout in my youth and I feel the organization taught me to be a better person and American. I want my son to belong in this wonderful program as long as he sees fit. He will continue his religious education, my responsibility to him, in the Catholic Church and upon his majority if he chooses to change, so be it.

Narraticong wrote:

Twocubdad, please let me know just which "God" you refer to in your post? And just who's version of his plan are you referring to? My Christian faith is clear that there is only one God and a quick reference to the 10 Commandments reminds me that I shall worrship no other God. There is no "commonality of faith", except among those with the same closely held beliefs.

I think this explains where John and I are coming from. As he and I come from the same denomination, we share the same beliefs in who God is. Thus, we can have a very meaningful shared expereince. That would certainly seem to be preferable to a more generic experience.

At my Scoutmaster's training we learned how to run a "proper" Scouts Own service. It had Bible verses- all from the Old Testament. I guess someone thought this might appease folks from several backgrounds. Well, to me, no Gospel means I am denying Jesus. I find that offensive and would just as soon not participate. The fact is, my personal faith, and the proper practice it requires, is more important to me than respecting or tolerating the faith of someone else. Therefore, rather than offend you, or be offended by you, I will quietly choose not to participate in a watered down generic service whenever possible.

Now let me throw in my two cents. This is precisely where the problem begins for me; with the concept of religious superiority and intolerance for the belief of others. It would seem to me that each religion believes it is superior to every other religious belief and the doctrine espoused is the only true way to achieve everlasting salvation. So if we are to include a religious service at the close of outdoor experience it would appear to me that it be of a generic form, so as to not precipitate a religious war!

I found a few quotes that have attributed to Lord Baden Powell that dovetail here pretty well:

I will much prefer to worship with those folks who have a similar faith. "Love of God, love of your neighbour and respect of oneself as God's servant are the basis for any form of religion" (Aids to Scoutmastership, 1919) http://post369.columbus.oh.us/bp.d/religion.html'>http://post369.columbus.oh.us/bp.d/religion.html

The method of expression of reverence to God varies with every sect and denomination. What sect or denomination a boy belongs to depends, as a rule, on his parents' wishes. It is they who decide. It is our business to respect their wishes and to second their efforts to inculcate reverence, whatever form of religion the boy professes. (Aids To Scoutmastership pg.36) http://post369.columbus.oh.us/bp.d/religion.html

B.-P's Outlook on Religion

Very closely allied with education comes the important matter of religion. Though we hold no brief for any one form of belief over another, we see a way to helping all by carrying the same principle into practice as is now being employed in other branches of education, namely, to put the boys in touch with their objective, which in this case is to do their duty to God through doing their duty to their neighbour. In helping others in doing daily good turns, and in rescuing those in danger, pluck, self-discipline, unselfishness, chivalry, become acquired, and quickly form part of their character. These attributes of character, coupled with the right study of Nature, must of necessity help to bring the young soul in closer touch spiritually with God.

Personally, I have my own views as to the relative value of the instruction of children in Scripture history within the walls of Sunday-school, and the value of Nature study and the practice of religion in the open air, but I will not impose my personal views upon others.

I prefer to be guided by collective opinions of experienced men, and here a remarkable promise stands before us. Scouting has been described by various men and women of thought and standing as "a new religion" - three times I have read it this week. It is not, of course, a "new religion," it is merely the application to religious training of the principle now approved for secular training - that of giving a definite objective and setting the child to learn and practice for himself - and that, I think everybody's experiences will tell him, is the only training which really sticks by a man for good and ultimately forms part of his character

January, 1912 (ibid)

The first link after the quotes does not work properly but the second link does.(This message has been edited by nachamawat)

I think Twocubdad has the right tone and attitude in his response. When I feel compelled to respond to a unsafe or incorrect action I always take the "offender" off to the side and quietly, constructively explain why his action was not in keeping with the Scout Law or Oath.

Those who learn that a certain action will illicit a certain negative physical response will simply learn to do that action out of sight of others.

This topic got me thinking about what Baden-Powell would say and I found this quote at USScouts.org:

"These objects are to a great extent lost if the camp be a big one. The only discipline that can there be earned out is the collective military form of discipline, which tends to destroy individuality and initiative instead of developing them; and, owing to there being too many boys for the ground, military drill has to a great extent to take the place of scouting practices and nature study." B.-P.'S OUTLOOK Some selections from the his contributions to "The Scouter" from 1909 - 1941

Of course B-P is referring to having smaller numbers in a camping environment, but it appears to me that he is still talking about Scouting discipline in general.

From the same article another quote:

"Too much drill, too little woodcraft, is a usual fault. To make the lads disciplined while using their own wits is our aim -- much on the principle of the sailor's handiness, and not so much on the machine-like routine life of the soldier. Stick to the lines of the handbook and develop on them."

evmori you asked: "Is cleaning the latrine as punishment the same as doling out push-ups as punishment?" My thoughts are simply as a punishment, yes. But in response to a boy being out of control and purposely causing the latrine to become unfit for use by others, then he should be brought to understand that his actions caused him to be responsible for cleaning up after himself. Cause and effect used with empathy will get you a far better, longer lasting reaction than a red faced reaction ever will.

IMHO there is no place in Scouting for using physical training as punishment. Should you decide to establish an actual physical fitness training program that was used as a tool to educate your Scouts in the proper way to build muscle and endurance, with all members of the troop participating including adults, then I say go for it.

However, there should be no discipline performed that is demeaning, detrimental, or embarrassing. I thought this organization is for fostering the youth of our future.

"I want different things in my secular governments or a Boy Scout forum than in my religion. I want my government to promote liberty. I want my Church to crush heresy with all its power."

So, Scout, you are all for freedom in government but not in the name of "your" (G)od. Somehow that does not suprise me. Your claims of open mindedness collapse at the front door to your church. Why does the atheist or agnostic person have less rights than you? Exactly how can you or your church define heresy so clearly? Was Martin Luther a heretic? He certainly was to the Roman Catholic church of the 16th century. Yet all of modern day protestantism rises from his dissent.

You claim that Stalin was a member of the Communist party. I think that he was a member of the Stalinist party that surrounded him and kept him in power in a "communist" country. Communism may very well be a political system that could work, however, the world has never seen a proper experiment in communism. Communism, of course, would indicate that all are equal and no one is better than anyone else. All of the so called communistic governments so far have been governments of despots and dictators, where some people were more equal than others.

I agree with you both that there is a lack of manners and leadership from what I witnessed in the troop. I am eager to voice my opinion on that, but . . . I am the new guy and I have only been to two meetings and one outing with them so far. Think it is too early to try to upset the apple cart just yet. I am willing to put in some time and see if the behavior changes. Still does not mean I have to like it!

Eagle Foot

if you were seriously wondering BP's son was named Arthur Robert Peter Baden-Powell (Peter).

As the father of four children I completely understand that each generation is different than the last. However, I think that iPods and other mp3 players have no business in the Scouting realm. It is important for safety that the boys can hear what is going on around them. I agree that a long car trip without electronics would cause a great deal of stress both for the adults in the vehicle and for the boys. But, once we get to camp they need to be put away for the duration.

My son recently crossed over to a troop. During the Blue and Gold, the guest of honor SPL of the gaining troop was completely immersed in his mp3. What a wonderful example to set for the new boys. Recently attended our first troop meeting and surprise, surprise he was wearing them throughout most of the meeting. Worst thing about it is he is the son of one of the leaders. Now how am I supposed to instill in my son that he should follow the Scout Law when the members of the PLC do not?