msnowman

Okay good, he has the correct pin for youth wear. I am watching ebay for one w/ a different style fastener so that it doesn't spin.

Thanks

Michelle

Out of curiosity - what would you wear the OA hat pin on? A hat pin w/o a hat seems to be akin to a smile without a face....

I have no problem accepting that it isn't for the expedition hat (I like the hat better w/o a pin on it).

Thanks

Michelle

for wear by a youth on the expedition hat?

This one calls itself the First Class Rank Pin:

First Class Pin

while this one says it is the Adult Universal Hat Pin:

Adult Hat Pin

The main problem with the Rank pin is that it is a single post and thus would spin on the hat, whereas the other seems to have more than one anchor point. However, its downfall is that is listed as the "Adult" pin.

Could a youth who successfully completes his Ordeal wear this on the expedition hat?

OA Pin

Nephew has the expedition hat and would like to wear the appropriate hat pin.

Thanks for any help.

YiS

Michelle

(it took numerous tries to figure out the code for the links)(This message has been edited by msnowman)

Our Pack charges $15.00 for a new shirt (complete w/ all the patches). If a family needs to upsize the next year we let them trade in their $15.00 shirt for another one. If they don't trade in their old shirt, its just another $15.00 for a new shirt. This has worked well for us, and allows us some freedom to be able to watch other sources for uniform pieces.

Good luck setting up a uniform shop. It has really helped increase uniform wear with our Pack.

YiS

Michelle

I am not a male, nor do I play one TV (or in skits, that is a gray area /smile). I'm not even a "real" parent, just the guardian of a newly minted 1st Class Boy Scout. I am also CM in the Pack and MC in the Troop.

When Nephew was a Tiger or Wolf and would ask if he could run down the driveway at the church my answer was "No, I'm not sending you home to your parents with a broken arm.". As a Bear, when there was no concern about sending him home the answer became "If you rip your face off I don't want to hear about it". By the time he got to Webelos the answer was "I don't care. You've had Readyman, if you rip your face off you can fix it yourself". He begged me to come to summer resident camp for his Web 2 year (I hadn't gone for either of the 2 previous years).

When he joined the Troop I told him "I'm not going to be a leader, its up to you. I'll drive you and make sure you have what you need." I wanted him to see that he can rely on himself and on other trustworthy adults, he doesn't need me. When he wants to juggle knives (or something equally as exciting to a 13 yo boy) the answer is "How's your First Aid Merit Badge progress looking?" He has told me I "need" to come on one of their camporee trips.

Boy Scouts is a time for him to find his way with his peers, in a more constructive way than school or other social outlets might provide. It is a time for him to learn about himself and his interactions with others. He'll make mistakes, get hurt, pick himself up and (hopefully) try again. He learns that he doesn't need me. I think that oftentimes it is the parent who needs their son more than the son needs the parent.

He makes mistakes. I make mistakes with him. We yell and fight and say stupid things. I have said things to him (Alec Baldwin and I now have something in common) in the heat of anger that I later regretted. We push each others buttons and have been known to make the other cry. We also can shake hands (hugs are so Wolf-ish), apologize and move on. I can't teach him to be a man - good, bad or otherwise. I can only teach him to be a good and responsible person.

That being said - there is the mindset, with many Troops, where if a woman and a man were to raise identical concerns, hers would likely be dismissed as being too cautious whereas his would be heard out before being routinely chuckled at. Hopefully our sons, nephews, grandsons, etc will do better than some are doing right now.

YiS

Michelle

Both of our Webelos went to tan as soon as they bridged over from Bear. I'm not sure the parents had much say in it, it was precisely what their boys wanted to do. We had no Webelos before them (a couple of lean recruiting years) so they were standouts, being the only Cub Scout aged boys in tan. /smile

YiS

Michelle

Pack Committee Chair is one of a handful required positions when the charter is filled out (along with IH, CM, MC, etc). So, you (or someone else) would have to register and charter as CC. This doesn't mean you can't be a DL (I'm currently CM and WDL), but it does mean that your primary position is considered CC.

HTH

YiS

Michelle

All of our dens meet (in various places) on Sunday afternoons from 3pm-430pm. For us we have found this conflicted the least with church, after school activities, bedtimes, homework and meals. When Nephew was first part of the Pack 6pm on Tuesdays were meeting nite/time. However, when he became a Web I we couldn't do that anymore because he had swim on Tuesday, so we moved the Webs (our den) to Sunday afternoons because it worked for everybody involved. Over time the other dens found that Sunday afternoon were great for them too - they could go on hikes, field trips, etc without booking special days.

Of course, like with everything YMMV.

YiS

Michelle

Thanks for all the kind words. Nephew is very excited, though in that "I'm too cool to look too excited" 13 year old boy kind of way (if you have or were one, you know exactly what I'm talking about).

I'm going to surprise him with the 1st Class Hiking Medallion to add to his "ceremonial" hiking staff (the one from AoL, with his other BS ranks on it). I've had it stashed away for a year, since he made 2nd class.....I had faith in him, even when his waned.

YiS

Michelle

As some of you may remember Nephew has struggled getting thru First Class because of swimming issues. Well, we have jumped thru the proper hoops, in the proper order and he was granted a medical exemption for swimming. Last night he sat his SM conference and BOR and is one of 2 new 1st Class Scouts in his Troop.

We will be sitting down this week to talk about his Star plan...he has never really worked much at merit badges because 1st Class felt so out of reach to him.

I just wanted to share with my extended Scout family, especially since I have voiced concerns here before about Nephew and the swim requirement. You were all supportive and offered great suggestions which gave me the direction I needed to guide him. Thank you.

YiS

Michelle

Our Pack started the year with 3 Tigers and lost one (custody issues). Occassionally there are times where its just the Den Leader (who doesn't have a Tiger of her own) and one Tiger pair. They still have fun, work on an activity and make headway on advancement. One will be getting his Tiger next week at our delayed B&G, the other will probably be about a month after that. One thing this group does is get the "whole" family involved - they are small enough that the sisters of each can participate too. Also - they will sometimes do things jointly, with our equally small Wolf den...that adds variety for everybody.

YMMV

YiS

Michelle

Nephew's Troop has 1 SM, 2 ASMs, 1 CC and 2-4 MCs. Their full "chartered version" youth roster is 7 members (after the tragic death of one 2 weeks ago). Of this number, only 4 regularly participate (and one of those is moving at the end of the school year), 1 ages out this summer and 2 come when/if they feel like it.

YiS

Michelle

As a compulsive planner and organizer, the thought of being unprepared gives me the heebyjeebies. However, I know that to prepare Nephew for his adult life, I have to let him fail (as painful for me as that may be). If he goes without something he will survive, and will be more likely to remember it next time.

I know he has learned more when he has had the responsibility of being prepared (or not). I used to (post cross-over, new Boy Scout days) help him pack for a camping trip...you all know what I mean - "Do you have XY&Z? Are you sure you don't want to take blah, blah, blah? What does your book say you need to bring?". Well, after a couple of trips where he didn't put a lot of effort in to being ready (why should he? I was going to do it for him) I told him "I'm not helping you this time. Take what you want/need, not my trip, not my problem". Well, he forgot to take extra rope and they needed it in camp that trip....Guess what? He's never forgotten rope again. Same thing with not being ready for a uniform inspection - he didn't want to change to his Scout Socks...and got docked for it. Now his socks are go on when he gets ready for his Den Chief gig, before his Troop meeting.

I don't believe we when make them be prepared unless we are willing to let them fail and suffer the consquences when they aren't. As long as it isn't a life/death thing (like have the proper sub zero bag for winter camping), they aren't going to be any the worse for wear...and they will learn the lesson far better on their own. They learn from their own mistakes, like we learned from ours.

YMMV

YiS

Michelle

While the body still has not been found, 3 eyewitnesses have identified the boy who went off the bridge as the missing youth. A memorial service was held for him Sunday. The church was literally standing room only with people whose lives he had touched. The common thread thru everybody's words were "He always had a smile for everyone, I'll miss that". Jumping off the bridge was a complete 180 for this boy and while nobody is coarse enough to ask the family why, the theory held by most is that it has something to do with the recent brain surgery he had (about 3 weeks before).

The family is holding up as well as can be expected under the circumstances. They have a whole church and town and extended family to lean on when its hard to take that next breath. Thank you for asking.

YiS

Michelle

Its doubley hard when the boy wants to complete his pin but his parental unit can't be bothered to help him with the home requirements. WDL Mom's examples of religion, Citizen and Fitness are perfect examples of boys needing their parents to give them 20 minutes of their time to help with this.

Sending notes home helps some, but it isn't a perfect answer.

For the pins that are required and require stuff to be done at home, be prepared to keep after the parents to get it back. For non-required pins, I still send the notes home, but don't harp quite as much about it.

YMMV

YiS

Michelle

They haven't officially released any info on the missing youth. However, being a small town, we all know the family, the sister is in the same class as Nephew so each teacher at the school told the students. He was the boy who always had a quick smile for everybody, well liked, etc. He wanted to be a chef and had been working on his cooking MB and always volunteered to cook on outings. He had recently had surgery to replace a permanent shunt in his head (childhood injury), so perhaps that had caused some personality shift.

YiS

Michelle

A young man in Nephew's troop is currently missing and feared to be the same youth who jumped from a local bridge Monday night. He is still missing and the young jumper's body has not yet been found. Even if it turns out the jumper and the missing scout are two separate individuals, someone has lost a son.

Please keep all involved in your prayers.

YiS

Michelle

In the thread I spun this from was the reminder that when doing AoL to keep BSA regs in mind about Indian face painting. Fair enough, respectful is always a good rule to follow.

So, my question is this - how about a face painting ceremony that in no way references American Indians in any fashion. I'm thinking the Painted Tiger/Wolf/Bear where you paint a yellow stripe on their forheads (the sunlight that guides you along the Cub Scout path), etc. All the colors are tied to Cub Scout values. Any reason why this would be considered disrespectful?

My feeling is no, there is no issue with this type of ceremony. It isn't meant to mimic an American Indian ceremony or face painting of any kind. At least when I did the Bears 2 weeks ago it was more of "Bear marks" than paint as I used my finger to leave the colored spots on their faces.

Thoughts? Comments?

YiS

Michelle

Our pack has been doing a summertime program for about 4 years, it was one of the first things I started when I was asked to become CM. We do a big cookout/bridging over as our June event, along with a community parade later that month. July is another parade and some sort of "build it" activity (we have done raingutter, built a game for summer camp, made summer camp costumes, etc). August is a Resident Camp, a Fishing Derby and then our traditional "Goodbye Summer, Hello School" Bring-a-friend Ice Cream Social.

Having a variety of things going on has made it far easier for the boys to earn their Summertime Pin and to stay interested in Scouts.

YiS

Michelle

Back in the day (okay, about 2 1/2 years ago) when Nephew was doing his Troop visits we stopped in one night unannounced. They were preparing for a Troop election and reviewing the positions, what the qualifications were, etc. Well man, didn't I think that was the most boring meeting in the world. I understood that it was necessary and that if we had asked we probably wouldn't have come to that meeting. However, when I apologized to Nephew for the boring meeting he said "That was great, I didn't think it was boring at all!". He felt he learned a lot about the guys and what he was going to be when he was in the troop. Sometimes boring is in the eye of the beholder.

That being said - Cub Scout Leaders vs Boy Scout Leaders are like Chocolate vs Vanilla ice cream - one isn't better than the other, they are just different. Not everybody is cut out to be a Cub Scout Leader, just like not everybody is cut out to be a Boy Scout Leader. Sometimes cutting and pasting isn't just about what you are making but rather an age appropriate exercise in following directions and motor skill practice. A 6 yo Tiger needs more practice with those than a 9 yo Webelos who needs more practice than a 12 yo 1st Class Boy Scout. Its ages and stages....heck, I won't ask my Webelos to make Toilet Paper roll Cowboys for Blue and Gold (decorations) but the Tigers are going to love working on those. Webelos are getting modeling clay for 3D Wild West Mobils (an artist pin option), as well as hammers and nails to make tin can lanterns.

We are all heading in the same direction, our boys are just at different points on the trail.

YiS

Michelle

I knew this would be the place to get suggestions and also more probing questions asked.

To clarify a couple of things - The Grandmother is actually paternal stepgmom. She didn't fail either of his parents, but is trying to keep SPL gson from following their destructive road. SPL is Nephew's best friend and a frequent guest in our house, thus why I hear trip deconstruction so often.

Beav - I think your suggestion of Roses & Thorns is a good one. The boys do that (informally) when I pick them up on Sundays after a trip. I get to hear everything that went on - the good, the bad, the ugly and the funny....amazing how often the ugly and the funny are the same thing. Later when I see Gmom at Cub Scouts I hear the same things from her....now if they all just sat down together and talked about what went well, what went wrong and what they learned it might help.

Nephew has invited "his" Webelos I's out to visit the troop at Chillout this weekend and to have lunch with them. Perhaps I'll mention the debriefing idea to the SPL and to the SM. Gmom isn't on this trip, so if they hashed this one out good/bad, then when they do it after a trip she's on it wouldn't seem so personal.

I appreciate the guidance given to me so I can offer that same to the boys. They aren't going to be boys forever and its important (imho) for them to learn how to deal with difficult situations and people constructively.

YiS

Michelle

Thank you everybody for your insight, views and opinions. At least now I know the concerns are legitimate. I've tried talking to her casually about it but that fell on deaf ears. My only concern with voicing it at a Committee meeting is that she will feel "ganged up on" which is definately not the intent.

Thanks again

YiS

Michelle

Scoutnut says "Also, why is the SPL complaining to you instead of talking to his grandmother? I would think it would be easier for him to talk to her than to his SM. Or, if he is uncomfortable talking to his grandmother, perhaps he could talk to his parents & have them talk to her. "

His gmother is custodial, his father is deceased and his mother is in and out of jail. He and his gmother have....lets say....the communications issues common with the age. Thus why he finds it easier to talk to almost anybody else but her.

As far as what the other adults do or say - usually a trip she is on the SM is not on. Its her and either an ASM or a MC parent. She tends to get up before anybody else and start doing for them before anybody can stop her.

The CC has the training you asked about, as she considered taking the SM role before the current one stepped up. As far as the boys advancing - that hasn't happened on the trips she has gone one. The 2 Tfoots still need cooking and picking patrol camp site sort of things. (For the record those are being worked on this weekend at Chillout w/ SM).

Thanks for asking and helping me look further.

YiS

Michelle

(This message has been edited by msnowman)

Nephew's SM is a pretty even handed guy. The troop is quite young right now, so he has to mentor more than he might in a troop with older boys around to do the teaching (the oldest active in the troop is a just turned 14yo 8th grade Life Scout), but he doesn't lead - the SPL does that, with varying degrees of success (as is fairly typical in boy lead imho). However, he isn't always able to be present for every camping trip or camporee. This means that another adult or two (always at least two) gets pressed in to service or straight up volunteers to go.

One of these people is the Troop CC (also the Pack CC). The SPL is her grandson and she doesn't trust him to lead. She challenges every decision he makes...sometimes (at least to outside eyes) belittling him in front of his peers. She treats the boys in the troop all like Webelos III's. She cooks for them, cleans up after them, starts their fires, etc because she doesn't want the younger boys (6th graders) to fail.

The 3 oldest boys (PL, Nephew and SPL) complain about her to me, but won't go to SM because they are afraid he'll think they are tattling on her. My advice to them would be easy if it were a Scout they were having problems with (go to your Patrol Leader, SPL, SM - in that order). But since it is another adult they have an issue with (and one of the boys is related), that advice doesn't seem to fit the bill as well. The older boys don't want to go to Scout camp with the Troop because they don't want to be under her leadership. They would rather wait and go to camp as part of the provisional troop.

My role in this? Not much, I'm CM for the Pack, but that isn't relevent to this. I'm also a MC for the Troop, so that might be a little more relevent. Otherwise I'm Nephew's taxi service, trusted adult for PL, SPL & Nephew and not much else.

I won't knock her willingness to go, especially since I am unable to go myself. But how do you re-educate an adult to understanding failing is a part of growing? I don't want to see the boys stop going and I know she only wants to do what is best for them and for them all to have a good time. Do I say something to the SM? I'm still inclined to stay out of it and to let the youth deal with it themselves. If they start declining to go on trips that she goes on maybe the message would be made, but if it was school instead of scouts an adult would step in - if only to lend their complaints some credence.

We can't be the only Troop with this sort of thing going on. How did you handle it? BTW - if the advice is to keep my nose out I'm good with that, just be courteous when you say so.

YiS

Michelle

Tami - Nephew was an 11 1/2 yo Scout (not even Tfoot) when he started Den Chiefing for my Wolf/Bear Den. His SM and SPL had zero care factor in his age/rank or even if he became a DC. Our Pack had tried all thru Nephew's Cub career to get DC's from the Troop...finally we just grew our own. Our other DC last year was a 12yo 1st Class. I'm not sure you will find anything on paper allowing or banning a 12yo/2nd Class Den Chief, but for the record I had one until Nephew turned 13.

Good luck and stick with it.

Michelle