Gone

Slight correction. Alternative only applies if troop has pre-established expectations and the scout does not meet those. If the troop does not have pre-established (i.e. written)' date=' the third test is passed. You only use the alternative if the scout fails to meet documented written pre-existing unit expectations. "Alternative to the third test if expectations are not met: If a young man has fallen below his unit’s activity oriented expectations, then.... "[/quote']

 

I asked that very question of Council. What I got back was for the third test was:

 

- Troop has pre-established activity guidelines? If so, the Scout must meet them. If not, then he can explain why using that alternate test.

- Troop does not have pre-established guidelines? Then the alternate test is automatically in play.

 

According to my Council, a unit wants to give the benefit of the doubt to the Scout but establish procedures if he does not meet certain guidelines. To automatically pass a Scout as "active" simply because a unit does not have written attendance guidelines was apprrently not the intent of this passage. At least, that's what my Council said so I have to go with that.

If a counselor says tough luck' date=' you lost your blue card and have to start over, having the info in TM doesn't do any good, since that's not a blue card.... how can you reissue a blue card from the info in TM? You aren't the mb counselor so you can't sign off on partials even if you have it written down in TM. [/quote']

 

If he has a partial in Woodwork from summer camp, we have his partial in TM, we most certainly can issue him an updated blue card. Already checked with Council on that point and they backed us up. If he was signed off on requirements 1-5 and was not on 6-10, we either a) get our troop Woodwork counselor to sign off after talking to the boy, or b) get a counselor within the District to do it. Council was just fine with that.

Ok' date=' I'll go for the low-hanging fruit: the very policy we have been debating has been pro-Christian. The exclusion of avowed homosexuals from the program certainly was created (and specifically affirmed just last summer) to align with the teachings of many larger Christian denominations.[/quote']

 

I asked for a BSA policy that was SOLELY Christian. You telling me Muslims and Jews and Hindus and Buddists all embrace homosexuality and Christians are the only Visigoths? Please.

 

On the other hand' date=' if BSA does change the policy....are you going to exercise that freedom you just described?[/quote']

 

Darn right I will. I will find a unit that "keeps to the code".

I'm not sure about the "solely pro-Christian" thing but BSA sure as heck DID single out the UUA (non-Christian faith) for exclusion of their religious award when they merely disagreed with the membership policy.

Well that's the lovely thing about membership organizations, you can always leave and start your own if you want or find another that fits your belief system. If I don't like AARP I can find another senior's group to belong to. Don't like my college because they encourage anti-conservative or liberal values? I can find myself a college that fits my belief system without forcing the obvious majority of people at said college to conform to mine.

300 million Buddhists worldwide don't constitute a major religion? Prior to the mid 1970's' date=' there was no established ban on gays in the BSA, and I cannot see any justification for the policy outside of picking and choosing which religious beliefs that they want to follow as a "completely nonsectarian" organization.[/quote']

 

I am not sure I follow your logic. I get that BSA, as was the US traditionally, was seen as a "Christian". That has clearly changed with the emphasis on moving away for faith-based services only for Christians over the last twenty years. As someone who was in Scouting as a kid and saw how Christian-oriented it was and came back to be a Scouter 10 years ago, I can clearly see the change to accepting all faiths. Heck, most BSA services I attend are very non-denominational. Second, I am having an issue following when you and Rick_in_CA say BSA is "primarily a Christian organization" following those beliefs and values. There are many major religions that do not ascribe to homosexuality as being accepted, so I would argue that BSA is more aligned with the major religions -- as much as anyone can align with everyone these days -- than they are solely a Christian organization.

 

I am still curious what specific policies BSA has pushed in the last 20 years that have been solely pro-Christian?

 

 

 

 

A question for everyone (I’d start a new pole on this if I could): The BSA’s bylaws state that the BSA is “completely nonsectarianâ€Â. What does that mean to you:

A) People of all religious faiths are equally welcome, and the BSA shouldn’t favor on faith over another.

B) The BSA is primarily a Christian organization and it’s core beliefs are based on Christian values. Others may join, but they must conform to those values.

 

Seems a simple question to me, and in my mind it certainly should mean interpretation A. Unfortunately, it seems to me that National has been following interpretation B for the last few decades, which doesn't seem to be logically correct in any way I can see.

MB' date=' I think you miss spoke. Prior to the 2011 Guide to advancement National defined active as dues paid and not on suspension. The GTA allows troops to set what being active means for them.....my numbers are above...... Not sure what the Guide to Safe Scouting has to do with it other than taking a lot of fun out of scouting. Bottom line here is the integrity of the program I provide the boys...... Holding the boys accountable, just as I hold myself.......Being Life for life isn't that bad, some of the best scouters I know are in that situation.[/quote']

 

Yeah, my mistake...meant GTA. But the GTA does state the three part test for "active". That third point -- "Scout meets the unit's reasonable expectations; or, if not, a lesser level of activity is explained" -- is the one where I think many get tripped up.

 

I know most troops have activity levels documented for leadership roles in their job descriptions. But I do not know many troops that say to be considered active you have to go on (x) number of camp outs or attend (x) number of meetings. So my point was that troops that don't have a documented participation % to define who is/is not active, then you are in a grey area where that "alternate" third test is applied. That's why out troop documented what % of attendance was considered active participation.

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/33088.pdf

 

I was also an Eagle at 15. In my troop all of the boys did whatever advancement they did strictly on their own or with help only from other boys if needed. Parents merely transported boys to and from merit badge counselors, for example. The boys learned self-sufficiency, independence, initiative. My advice is for the dad to let the boy do it on his own. Period. It can be done. The dad doesn't have to 'hover'.

 

Mozartbrau, "...when I was a kid who played professional sports."

Wow, you must have been pretty good at it!

Read this one with interst.. for a number of reasons.

 

1) I was an Eagle at 15, while my older brother didn't finish his until his VERY later 17. I certainly don't think I was too young...and I'm almost insulted to have someone think I was. I was very active, and did summer camp every year, Philmont at 15, etc.

 

2) Unless I'm mistaken, when Eagle was first created, the average age for the award was 15, then it went down to 14, and slowly rose and fell over the years. My father was 16 when he earned his in the 60's. I know I've read these numbers somewhere.

 

3) I've known SM to refuse the SM Conference for boys. Not due to age, but other 'real' reasons (lack of activity in Troop). So, I do believe there are legitimite reasons this could be done. However, like most people here, I agree.. the idea of a SM holding a Scout back and delaying their progression is disturbing.

The problem Sqyire, is that in many councils there are Scouts getting Life by 13 and then dropping off the radar entirely to focus on other stuff. They work on Eagle but they are really not involved in their troops or Scouting. Some do the very least they can do to meet any "active" litmus test just so they can get Eagle. It is for their resume for college, nothing more. I think the reason many want to "slow a Scout down" is so they 1) develop deep skills, 2) get full benefit of what Scouting is about, and 3) learn to give back to their troop.

I had a coach when I was a kid who played professional sports. We were lucky to have him as a coach since he played at the top level of his game. Back then it was unheard of to have a guy like him coaching a bunch of 11 year-olds. He told us something that always stuck with me, he said "Make sure when you are done with your career -- regardless of what it is, sports, a club, a church -- that you give back to that group. If you continue to take from the well without giving back, the well will run dry." That simple statement has ALWAYS stuck with me and many of my generation. I think the problem is these days there is no sense of stewardship. Kids finish their business and move on. Heck, few even say "thank you" let along give back to their troop.

I go back to what BD said, it is about the journey not the destination.

Those are the numbers we use to define active. I use troopwebhost that has the ability to do it real time from a smartphone without add ons or extra charges....

As I said in the other forum the cost difference is a few bucks for like services between the two software. ;-) I've done the math recently.

We took care of that boy who shows up for an SMC......With the guide to advancement' date=' the what is active......for a boy in non leadership role it is 50% of the meeting and 50% of the outings for the last 6 months.....and in a leadership role it is 75 for both. [/quote']

 

BD...but to be clear...those percentages are a unit-specific measure, right? The Guide to Advancements does not provide percentages for attendance that I saw. Rather, they provided the litmus test of:

 

- Be registered

 

- Be in good standing (i.e., not suspended)

 

- Meet the unit requirements for "active" OR be able to justify why you cannot or did not using the special means test.

 

My guess is some units do not track attendance (yet another use for TM btw ;-) ) or if they do they do not apply their attendance standard unless there is an obvious issue (e.g., someone falls well below any 50% level, rather than someone who is at 45%)

 

I used our TM software to track they attendance when the scribes submit attendance. I run a report and identify boys that are in the process of dropping off the radar. We have a quick SMC and discuss their activities and our expectations for future attendance. Had to do this with two Eagle candidates last week...had not seen them except to sign blue cards in THREE YEARS!!! all that despite me sending them requests to talk and re-engage. They were registered and in good standing but literally did nothing with us. Sent a few shots across the bow and then said we need to talk. One kid came in, had a good talk and we established a way he could stay active AND still do his other stuff. The other kid? Missed the meeting with me, the advancement chair and the Eagle advisor, made excuses about how buys he was and even used his mom's minor surgery as an excuse...despite the fact that his mom was actually AT the troop meeting that night delivering something to the CO. Go figure. Clearly the kid does not have Scouting as a priority and demonstrated right there that the Scout Law and Oath does not mean a great deal to him. Our next conversation will be interesting.

 

@Mikeknr...this is the very reason your son should slow down. These Scouts got Life by 13 1/2 and then just dropped of the radar to focus on other stuff. Scouting is a resume builder for them. I see too many kids in my Council follow this same path. In the end the choice is yours. I prefer the boys slow down and become solid scouts. Eagle should be about who you become, not how fast.

 

I understand that in Apr' date=' 2013, this discussion is now over 11 years old and yet incredibly, it is still pertinent. I am an ASM in a large troop where the prevailing attitude is to be in 'prevent mode', as I call it. There are important items left off the list of things to discuss with first year's, among them are how to work the blue cards (when/who/what to ask, and how and why...) and that certain ranks are needed at certain years for Pipestone, as my Troop attends 7-Ranges each year (Buckeye Council, OH). I have a SM who, during my 11 year old son's SMC told him that he needed to 'hang out with your Dad less'...baffling to us because when were outdoors, we rarely see each other, especially at summer camp, and have to set times and dates to go get an ice-cream slushy to catch up. Then this SM assigned an Eagle Scout to speak to my son after his First Class SMC about, you guessed it, 'slowing down to have some fun', he actually did this with one other Scout as well, but did that Scout's father the courtesy of telling him he planned to do this prior to doing it. I would not have objected, my son's ambition is bullet-proof at this point, but I do object to the underhanded way he went about all theses activities. 'First year to First Class' is a standard that he, my son, loved, and he stated to me that he planned to get his Eagle prior to getting his license, he is well aware of the 'fumes' from talking to other adults (perfume and exhaust fumes...) and doesn't want to let those and sports get in his way, knowing that they inevitably will. My real concern is, given the SMs past behavior, they the SM may try to talk the newly elected SPL out of choosing my son for any positions of responsibility. What would I do in this case? This would set my son to waiting for 14 months until the next election, for Star rank which should take at MOST 4-6 months....?? [/quote']

I will be honest here. Scouting for many kids these days seems to be more about getting Eagle before 16 (or even 14) than it is about actually being in Scouts. Every troop I know have kids that rocket through to Life by 13 or maybe just turned 14 and then *poof* they drop off the radar and you never see them until they need their Eagle SMC. Where is the journey? Where is the enjoyment? These kids rocket around from activity to activity and barely give Scouting the time of day...or at least after football or baseball or soccer come first. But they want Eagle. Not for what it means -- being a Master Scout -- but for the resume value of it.

 

Sorry Mike, I am with your SM on this one. I would if I could flat out tell kids to slow down and enjoy the journey. Build deep skills. Master one skill in particular like first aid or something that will continue to be a life-skill. Don't just treat Scouting as a brief activity, but as something you are actually ACTIVELY engaged in. BW hit the nail on the head: It is the journey not the destination. My own kid is at Star right now. Will have been Star for two years. All he needs is his SMC to get Life. He said on his own that he did not think he was ready to be a Life Scout. THAT more than ANYTHING spoke volumes to me.

 

If I were you I would tell my kid to slow down and enjoy Scouts. What does he get if he makes it fast? He won't be the youngest Scout to make Eagle. The only person he short changes is himself.

 

 

 

 

 

Here's hoping this actually replies, already failed miserably twice elsewhere.

 

Last summer, our troop went to Camp Orr. It looked great from the leader guide. It had places and activities I was familiar with from my time as a scout. We signed up, had a group staying in camp and a group doing their high adventure - really their cornerstone. the HA trek chosen was the canoe trek. then the warnings started rolling in.... severe drought.... water levels might not be high enough to canoe the whole distance. by a week prior, the trek was aborted completely (no fault of the staff) and our crew was offered the alternative which was to backpack that same distance. this wasn't an option for us, might as well call our guys tenderfeet.... backpackers they are not (at least not this oldest set). they did go some, three days. i was set to be in base camp anyway with the other part of the troop. what was there was fine, nothing spectacular, nothing different from any other merit badge camp. the river running right beside camp was low and slow moving. slow moving enough that growth was occurring, not particularly appealing.

 

oh.... and it's in a national park, so it would seem that rifles and shotguns are completely taboo.... so shooting sports were air rifles and archery. if you can roll the dice and get the canoe trek, take it. otherwise, go elsewhere.

In what I think we can agree is a fairly conservative organization' date=' does it present a shock to anyone's intuition that the Eagle Scouts produced by that organization thereby reflect what the BSA was or IS, in terms of it's legacy policy and views?[/quote']

 

Well, given that the vast majority of the COs are religious organizations and how they feel about the topic in general, I think that gives you your answer about why the Eagles may be more conservative. But to be honest. I don't know that many Scouts that are really following this issue -- or any political issue for that matter. Most really could not care one way or the other.

National doesn't care about partials and national doesn't care about the boy or the troops copy of the blue card.

some councils I guess collect copies of completed blue cards but I'm not really sure why they would go to that much trouble.

programs like troopmaster care about partials, but it doesn't really do much good unless the mb couselors can use it to see what they haven't covered with the scout yet, but a blue card does that just as well or not better.

We track completed merit badges in internet advancement which goes to national

and that program will provide a copy for any scout that needs one due to his house burning down,

and if required for his eagle we would recreate all merit badge cards marking them with the correct date they were earned but really that is adding to the requirements IMHO.

 

I don't like dealig with tracking partials on ranks either, although I can see the merit in using that info to help decide what the direction the troop needs to head in order to ensure the scouts can earn their next ranks. but I see that as info the youth leaders should have for planning patrol meetings, troop meetings and outings--and we very rarely allow the youth to see the programs such as troopmaster for anyone's records except maybe their own. So then it's just adults entering things in the computer in order to enter things in the computer.

 

partials for summer camp are valid to keep track of, but why is it my job as an adult leader to keep track of them rather than the youth? should a merit badge counselor accept a print out from troopmaster of what things the boy has already completed in the badge, knowing that the print out from troopmaster doesn't have a mb counselor's signature on it so who knows how accurate it is since it's passed thru several hands being entered into the system. the scout should just keep his blue card showing the partials, shouldn't he?

On the other hand, we HAVE had counselors turn away Scouts for losing their blue card essentially saying "tough luck, start over". Ergo, we keep records.

Fair enough.

 

I view it as the boys responsibility. In our troop once you give the boy a merit badge card I do nothing with it till he gives it back to me with his. councilors signature as completed.

 

I don't track partials. I track start date, completion and award dates. If the boy loses it it teaches responsibility.....he can redo it or ask the MBC for another signature.

 

The boys can be responsible if you make them

 

..

As a troop we have a responsibility to know what our boys are doing which is why we track partials and completions. If a record is lost, National will accept the troop's record as a back up PLUS it makes it easier for us to enter the data into the national DB so that they have the record too. I would hate to tell ANY kid "tough luck" if his house burnt down or tornado hit his house that he's SOL because he did not have his records in a strong box and it's his fault. Troops keep records -- especially larger troops -- so we can be there to support our Scouts should they need us. The boys are plenty responsbile...in fact, perhaps even more so.

BTW, we track partials as a way of 1) knowing if a boy is working on too much already, or 2) identifying a Scout who may start something and not finish it. With the software in place, tracking partials is no harder than tracking camping nights, service hours or anything else. Doing it in software allows us to run reports and know fast who our Lifeguards are, who needs canoe training before our float trip, who can plan our Philmont training hikes, who does/doesn't need climbing or firearms certification, etc. So I would argue the software and tracking we do SAVES us time. Trust me, I've done it manually AND with software and the latter is by far less time consuming and allows me to focus on other things.

Reccord merit badge work?????

 

 

Let me see from my understanding of the merit badge program

 

Bobby tenderfoot wants to earn the Rat Rodeo merit badge. He goes to his SM and asks for a Unit Leader signed Merit Badge card and a councilors name. Bobby meets with Rat Rodeo merit badge councilor completes the badge and then turns the Councilor signed card back into the Advancement Chair or SM.

 

So exactly what is there to record far as merit badge work other than Start, completed and awarded???????????

- Keeping a permanent record (not paper) that has a back-up in case Bobby loses his Blue Card

- Being able to run a report on how many MBs were earned or ranks were award to qualify for JTE or other unit honors

- Being able to give group credit if you have 20 guys taking Basketry and not having to fill out the same spreadsheet 20 times for the same thing

- Having a file that can be imported into Internet Advancement so that National has a record of the Scout's work (and for free rank patches)

- Tracking when badges have been awarded or not in case Bobby does not attend the COH

- Being able to provide online or printed reports for Bobby when he asks for them so he can make sure his Handbook matches the Troop database (seen way too many Scouts find surprises in their records when going for Eagle without these periodic checks)

- Allows Scoutmasters to view every Scout's status on how many completed and partial MBs he has to help them manage their Scout careers and determine what each Scout's interest is to better tailor their SMC discussions

- Use the software to match counselors with Scouts or to identify where a troop might need a counselor

- To reduce the amount of time we as volunteers spend managing out program

These are a few of the reasons we use software and have an ASM assigned as MB advisor. He manages the whole process and is the contact point for all things MB. I can tell you if I had to do all of this manually (70+ boys) I would spend four time the amount of time I currently spend just managing that aspect of the program. For a medium-sized troop (for my area) Troopmaster is a God send.

@BD: We did something very similar. We have a monthly cook off on Saturday dinner where the winner gets a leather patch and 5pts for his patrol. They get an award called the "Golden Whisk" which is passed from patrol to patrol each month based on the cooking winner. We do special ribbons for events like orienteering, pioneering, nature, etc. At the end of every 6 months the patrol with the most points gets pizza (Dutch oven, of course) with the Scouters. We have seen a real esprit de corps form after a while. We now have patrols racing to take down/set up camp the fastest (points lost if not done correctly or dangerously), as well as guys actually CLEANING gear better to get points for any surprise inspection that might happen.

The PLC has embraced this concept and has begun awarding and tracking the points. So far all has worked very well.

Our precamp meeting the CD asked for us to keep our eye open and let him know about the ammo situation...He asked for 80,000 rounds of 22.

mozart that still doesn't give you web access to the program using any web browser....With troopmaster you must spend another $59.88 for the troopmaster web....so we are talking $100 a year and you can't email your Troop.

You can buy TM for $41/year on a three year license. That gets you TM and DotNet which allows you to have it installed on several machined. I am in a large troop and we have plenty of people accessing TM from laptops, desktops. This makes TM cheaper by nearly half than the other software you mention.

Now you need to have a website, right? SOAR allows you to have a full featured website which does everything the other software you mention does AND integrates with TM to update your site so your Scouts can see their status. You can update this as much as you want. You ALSO get troop email, patrol emails, calendars, event registration, online payments, etc. ALL of this for just $15 more than what you pay. I posted the prices from each software's website so there was no mistake what the costs were.

*If* you want TM web access, which is not really needed IMHO, you can add that and then it does indeed cost $180/year. However, you don't really need that unless you feel compelled to make changes to TM from your mobile phone or iPad. Otherwise, I have all I need with TM+SOAR which includes a robust website and the full features of TM for just $15 more a year.

To answer your question about SOAR, it is a competitor to Troopwebhosts. The features and functionality of SOAR is slightly better than Troopwebhosts IMHO. When you add the fact your can integrate TM with it (which is a mere click of a button) that's a HUGE advantage. The issue with managing two pieces of software is not that hard. When we "on board" a new Committee member or SM we walk them through the install and everything is so user-friendly it is never an issue. Add to that the fact TM is like PM the learning curve is even lower.

We looked at Troopwebhost a while back when we were looking at SOAR+TM and found this to be the best course for us.

I apologize for intentially highjakcing this thread, but I seem to no longer be authorized to start new threads. This makes no sense to me. If anyone can clarify, I will be grateful.

 

I saw a post on facebook today featuring some pioneering projects which are sculptures of things like dragons and super heroes. It got me thinking again about how much I would like to do a pioneering project with my scouts. I only have second graders. Some of them can't even tie their shoes, but they use high-interest topics to encourage reluctant readers, and even a small pioneering project is more interesting than tying a shoe...

 

The thing that stops me in my tracks before I ever get started are the poles. Where on earth am I supposed to find some poles. I've read that bamboo works well, but I imagine we would need some poles at least 1" in diameter, maybe 2" depending on what we want to build, and I can't imagine where I might find that stuff, so I'm posting here in the hopes of finding out where some real scouters actually found some real poles for a real pioneering project. Thanks!

Just checked the various websites of the two products listed. I saw:

1) Troopwebhost: $99/year + $15/year for own URL

2) Troopmaster: $41/year (based on a three year license with TM and DotNet access making it "cloud" based and multiuser)

We add SOAR on to that (@$89/year) and we get the full features of that site + TM which is a bit more robust than Troopwebhost for us $15 more a year. While both products likely meet the needs of troops just a bit differently, I would suggest that the gap between the two is not so great. In fact, Tm being the more robust for advancement mgmt., if you are willing to spend $15 more a year the TM+SOAR option is very, very nice.

I still cannot create a new topic "Nationwide ammunition shortage may effect summer camp".

 

Even 22 ammunition is hard to find, a local Rifle Shooting MB class has been indefinitely postponed until 22 ammo become available.

 

"There is a shortage at the moment of .22 ammunition,†said David Chapman, Executive Director of the Buffalo Trail Council (Texas). “Kids like shooting and especially when it’s in a safe environment. During the summer we usually use about 22,000 rounds of ammo."

 

Chapman says each year major ammo retailers open bulk orders at a discount just for scout councils across the country, but this year it was a let down.

 

"They opened up the window for about two hours, “ Chapman said. “Then said, we’ve got all the orders we can handle through the end of the year.â€Â

 

link

http://www.cbs7kosa.com/news/details.asp?ID=42153

The only wqy to fight this kind of thing is three fold. You have begun the first. Make folks aware of the politics. The second is to get ahold of the CORs, who are the "owners" of the council, they officially vote in or out the leadership. Get ahold of the corporate documents (public access thru the state) and make yourself knowledgeable. The third is to involve the press. There is a story here, and some local reporter is dieing to write it.

 

Google Owasippee in the Chicago Area Council for precedent. And on these pages( if they will work)

 

Follow the money. Who gets the credit for (on paper) making your Council "solvent"? Who retains their six figure salalry? Who would want to buy the camp? In what area? Into what would it become? Would the county zoning board like to hearabout this early on?

 

Once a camp is turned into McMansions, or condos or lake front resort , it will never see a hawk or owl hoot or the tramp of size 6 boots again....