moosetracker

I saw a funny piece on this yesterday.. That's funny that you tested it out on your dog.. sounds like if you use his pooping compass for directions when lost in the woods, you may be Ok for a general idea, but have some problems, if you need really accurate.. Your dog is a close but not perfectly accurate compass..

Don't know if it's our tax dollars at work.. My clip states that it was a study out of Germany.. Maybe someone in the US will have to recreate the study to confirm it?? Of course, you and a few other dog owners can save them by just emailing them your results.

http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/watch/doggy-directions-follow-their-nose-or-yours-105683011723

Then if you add to this, just money or gift cards to groceries.. I would think.. The tangent offerings sound like they have already gotten out of hand. They will now have 80 pots & pans, toys galore etc.. They soon will be able to open a 2nd hand store out of the place they are staying at..

But, there will be little things I am sure that will forgotten that the cash/gift cards will help with.. Perhaps dish towels and dish lotion, or a butter dish, salt & pepper shaker etc..

No mass (or minor) influx of gay kids either. So we're where we always thought we were, pandering to the AT&T dude cos he was getting stick at shareholder meetings.

 

Next up, will Gates be Stephenson's guy to push the change for adults?

I know my DE was tracking his district and had a very good idea of where his district was, even those whose paperwork was late getting in.. We were about 2.5 weeks late, even so he wanted to know the numbers to add us in.. He also has a way to tally through the online rechartering.. For our Pack & troop (our troop for some reason thought all they had to do was the on-line and they were done. Don't know why, not their first time around the block. But, they were late also due to this.)

Anyway our DE knew before we rechartered who was added and dropped.. He had his fingers on his numbers.. Last night at the District meeting, he reported his numbers.. I don't think my DE was doing anything that other DE's don't do.. The recruitment numbers are their bread & butter.. THEY KNOW !!!

Therefore, I think that even if the Alabama boys rechartered in December, they have a good handle on their final numbers.

"However, he said if his sons had a gay leader, "we would have to take a look at making other arrangements."" Gay leaders (role models) is and has been the main issue from the beginning. Barry

Agree mostly with what everyone else says.. Accept for one thing.. If you think your son is fine because he doesn't know better and thinks this is what all BSA troops are like, and the program is not good. I would take him to visit other troops in the area.

Running all the council/district events seems to me like to much.. Sure it will give your son planning and organizational skills, IF, the boys are allowed to run it, and are not just used as the brawn.. If adult lead, then your son learns nothing except how to follow orders and be a worker bee.. He also never gets to enjoy a district event.. Do they do anything else like camping, backpacking, hiking, bike riding that is not district event related???..

My son's first troop had a person, who didn't start out as SM but became it shortly after joining.. Even before joining this guy worked for the district and the troop ran a district event now and then, but not ALL.. But he had the parents of the scout do all his district work, that he took credit for.. Other things not all event related, organizing his roundtable meetings for him.. Working on district membership or finance for him as well as the occasional district event.

When you enter the troop you thought of it as a well functioning, highly active troop.. You needed to step back, to see that nothing was for the benefit of the boys or the troop, it was all for the benefit of one man to make him look good in the eyes of the district. (so ultimately I guess it helped your district).. But, take away things a troop shouldn't be involved in, and it was all that well functioning..

If you think your troop isn't running well, but your son doesn't realize it.. Find a way to have him step back and appraise it from a different perspective.

One thing that I remember from a person who lost everything in a fire is that they also "lose their identity". By this, everything that told them who they were and their value as a person was is now gone. All the photos, memorabilia, etc. no longer exist. Everyone is quick to jump in and help with the physical needs, but there are lasting emotional needs as well that need to be addressed.

 

I would suggest the troop take up a collection to provide him with another round of scouting items that reassures him that he was and is a vital part of something important. That might be just as important, or maybe even more important than the 15th casserole showing up at the hotel door.

 

Remember one can't always see all the scars.....

 

Stosh

Sucks for you, but it's all about the boys. You can still be involved in the Pack and work on the Pack/Troop integration. If they don't want you because your son is a "traitor," so be it. I know our district is trying to recruit Cub Scouters to fill the District Committee when their boys bridge to troops.

 

If you like BSA involvement and your son's troop isn't welcoming, I know volunteer Scouters are always needed. Your son's Troop time is limited at 7 years, there is plenty of Scouter activities for you for the next 7 years. Perhaps you can find a Venturing Crew that wants an active Scouter to help the program.

But, yes besides district, there is staying with the Pack, or finding a local Venturing Crew.. If the Crew is Co-ed.. Then they NEED femaie advisors.. Either of these would be a position totally seprate from your sons scouting career, but they may be fun and rewarding for you personally.. And who knows, with Venturing you son may choose to join the Crew when he is of an age where he could.

But, the district level will still give you a way to help your son enjoy his scouting career.. Just do not take the first thing the district throws your way.. They try to get people to take the ick jobs no one wants.. If you go, visit the district committee a few times without committing to anything.. Meet the people. If they are all sticks in the mud.. Then this may not be the place for you.. But, otherwise, see what position interests you, and who heads it, and if you like them and can work with them.. You might even like the positions I think are not interesting.. If you are an accountant you might like finances.. Since you wanted to organize your troop & pack, you might like membership..

If you don't want your Scouting career to end, it need not.. It depends on how good your District level volunteer group is.. Some people do not like the group, and they too can be a "Good ol' boy group" and unwelcoming.. But many, many are very welcoming and would love new blood.. You could work with District Training, and train Adult leaders for their positions (Including the Adult leaders in you sons new troop who feel you "unworthy" due to your sex.. Or work on the advancement committee and be part of approving the scouts to Eagle (including the scouts in your sons troop).. Or work on the activity committee which is camporees and hike-a-thons your sons troop will be attending.. There are others, but these ones dealing with program I personally find the most fun to work in, and you will feel you still are having some input into your sons scouting career as well as dozens of others... If you attend District meetings, you will also learn more then even those going to roundtable.. And may end up the "person in the know" at your sons troop..

Staying on this forum, will also help you stay as more knowledgable.. There are many times I brought up BSA policy changes that not only the troop members did not know, but sometimes the DE did not know.. All due to staying connected to this forum.

Not personally in my unit, but a co-worker of mine had it happen in his unit.. From what I remember, exactly as you are doing.. Donations.. I think they may have given some tangables, but not until they found out from the Family where they were staying and what they needed.. Families in this situation do not need tons of stuffed animals.. Pots & pans only good if they get a place they need to do the cooking. If staying with relatives or in a hotel, that becomes extra clutter.. Clothes.. What sizes do they need?? Food, cooked meals may be good.. Maybe a grocery card is the best.. Otherwise, If staying with relatives, include food for all.. If they have no way to cook food, don't buy raw materials they can not cook & prepare..

They do not need to be piled with unwanted junk when they have no place to put the junk.

"However, he said if his sons had a gay leader, "we would have to take a look at making other arrangements."" Gay leaders (role models) is and has been the main issue from the beginning. Barry

BSA - has to revamp also.. Adding gays will not be the success or failure.. Moving more out of high adventure activities and drowning us in so many safety rules that scouts can't do more then sit on chairs around a table, and talk, will..

We have been discussing changes to the Cub program due 2015, my husband told me there is talk of changes to the BS program due 2016.. Let's hope they look to England's success as a guide. If these changes free up the scouts to more high adventure they will head in the right direction.. If these changes tighten rules and regulations, we will continue to sink.. Really it will have little to do with us being inclusive or not.. Inclusiveness, will just allow the families of the current generation to think about joining IF the program is good.. That is a big "IF"..

"However, he said if his sons had a gay leader, "we would have to take a look at making other arrangements."" Gay leaders (role models) is and has been the main issue from the beginning. Barry

In the post below this, I pointed to a Council in Alabama, which had a surge in membership during this period in time.. I pointed out, that I suspected their winning tactic was not waving a flag on the street corner stating, "Gay youth now Welcomed"..

I know that there are other factors to both Countries.. But, Eagledad would like to believe Canada is solely due to gays, and ignore England because it doesn't fit his argument.

Which basically still prove..... Maybe not... At least your country proves that if you allow gays in, you will fail no matter what else you do.. Allowing Gays in is guaranteed disaster.. It really is a silly argument when you look at all the other successful clubs, organizations and groups who are inclusive to all and don't discriminate. Gays are not what made them or broke them.. It was a lot of various factors, that probably had little to nothing to do with who was welcomed as members.

One other idea.. First off if your CC has 2 friends on committee, you need the Treasurer and 2 other committee members.. But, vote for a 2 signer checking account. And have signers be treasurer, CC (if you must), SM, and if one more someone not of the CC's buddy group.. This is a good checks & balance if you are questioning missing funds..

The CC doesn't have a vote on the committee except to break a tie. Therefore if she only has two friends who can vote, but you have 3 who can vote, you will out number them.

Also if the CC is bringing in Friends from outside the troop "parents".. You can vote for parents only -or- if the friends are of the CO (members of the church or whatever the CO is).. Then your COR might push for parents or CO members.. But, you can limit the committee to not include people off the street that the CC just drags in to stack the deck.

One other idea.. First off if your CC has 2 friends on committee, you need the Treasurer and 2 other committee members.. But, vote for a 2 signer checking account. And have signers be treasurer, CC (if you must), SM, and if one more someone not of the CC's buddy group.. This is a good checks & balance if you are questioning missing funds..

The CC doesn't have a vote on the committee except to break a tie. Therefore if she only has two friends who can vote, but you have 3 who can vote, you will out number them.

preferred would be cub scouts sharing your CO, and Ventureing with a different CO, unless the troop really embraces and works together to make the Crew work for it, not against it.. It helps to be tied to your Pack.. It helps if the Venturing Crew does not see you as their "feeder troop" but rather is open to recruiting drop out Boy scouts from a bunch of troops (Once they decide for various reason, to drop from the troop.. And also know they need to just recruit from without.. The Pack and Troop go hand in hand as when you age out of Cubs that is when you are allowed to join the Troop.. Venturing is good, if done right with leaders who know the right from the wrong way to recruit.. But since ages overlap and advancement overlap.. If done wrong, it can destroy a troop.. Or, in our case, our troop destroyed the Venture Crew. But not without a large battle that did not just stay at the adult level, but affected the scouts.. It took a few years to mend.. And the scouts were very upset with the battle between the adults.

If your COR will not fire the CC, then you do have one other option, but use it wisely.. You can go past the COR and discuss it with the Institution Head (unless the COR is your Institution Head).. You should make sure you have totally, seriously talked it over with the COR, and perhaps then let them know you will be discussing it with the IH.. That way they don't feel that you went over their head, and they had no forewarning.

The CC should not deny parents who want to be voting members of the committee.. They maybe wont assign them jobs, if shes a control freak.. But get more parents to sign an application and go to committee meetings so they can out vote the CC and her 2 friends.. She can't deny them a vote.. And the COR should support you bringing in more committee members, if they see good in everyone..

"However, he said if his sons had a gay leader, "we would have to take a look at making other arrangements."" Gay leaders (role models) is and has been the main issue from the beginning. Barry

If your CC is transferring money on his own without a Committee vote, and seeing it is a troop the SM should be insisting on a vote from the Boys.. Because basically it is money raised, by the boys for the boys.. A pack may get away with a vote from the adult leaders, but a troop should get approval from the boys.. Anyway if the CC is doing this on their own, it really is theft, maybe not for personal gain, but it would be for their personal interest group..

If your troop is suspecting, but not sure.. I have to ask, who is the troop treasurer.. You should have at least 3 in the committee, one should be a treasurer.. If your troop has handed all committee duties over to one sole person, you have a serious problem.. Where is the checks and balances?? You have set yourself up to be taken advantage of.. WHY.. Is the CC not allowing others to work in the committee, or our you parents concerned, but not willing to get involved in the troop enough to have the needed checks and balances??.. If your troop needs work who do you want to do the work?.. The CC, the SM, the boys, are you taking on some of the responsibility..??

I could see your troop offering support by working a joint fundraiser with them, (provided the boys are interested.).. The pack & crew must put in the elbow grease, but you can help them start to figure out how pull a decent fundraiser.. Perhaps with a joint venture, if needed you could provide the seed money, with the understanding that is paid back from the profits first.. But, permanently give up your own raised funds??.. Even if you are rolling in the dough, you can always find things to spend it on to improve your boys program.. A super trip, a couple of decent smaller trips, a troop trailer, etc, etc.

A pack would help with feeding the troop, but if they don't belong to the same CO, there is a big chance they will not come to your troop, but shop around for any troop in the area.. A venture crew, if too close and with an adult leader who is a strong influence starting to prefer the Venture Crew to the troop could be a killer.

We had that.. Rather then a place for boys who tire of BS to go, the adult leader tried to recruit her Venture crew members by stealing them from the troop.. "Come to Ventures, no uniforms, girls, we will complete your Eagle rank, blah, blah, blah.. Then after trying to steal the scouts, had the nerve to try to piggy back onto the troop activities.. One was a trip to Nantucket Island, she was told "NO" totally.. So she felt it being a free country, she could just take her group on the same ferry on the same weekend, rent the same bikes, bike to the same campsite, and the Troop couldn't keep her from following them.. She was at the time the troop outdoor coordinator, so she was booking the trip for the troop, and planned to book the same for the crew.. She came within inches of being fired as the Troop outdoor coordinator.. And though she didn't follow she was pissed for a long time.. She also complained that the Troop leaders were EXPECTED to take on leadership roles in her Venture crew, even though their scouts were not involved and they had no interest..

This is my bad experience.. This may not be your bad experience.. But, you are hitting some similarities that make my antennas go up..

If Adult leaders are in a couple of the units Pack, troop, crew.. This COULD be a good thing, if the person knows that all are separate, and are not a personality that manipulates situations.. I don't think I would like these people to be in as big a position as the key three of these units, unless a key three of one, and not a key three of the other.. These positions are large, and time consuming. But, it could be good for communication between the groups.. It just is the person sitting on the fence between the two, should not feel they have the right to commit one group to the other for anything.. They just are the voice to pass the communication onto the other group for them to decide on.

No mass (or minor) influx of gay kids either. So we're where we always thought we were, pandering to the AT&T dude cos he was getting stick at shareholder meetings.

 

Next up, will Gates be Stephenson's guy to push the change for adults?

"The Black Warrior Council, based in Tuscaloosa, has added members this year, according to Scout Executive Ed Martin. The council expects to finish 2013 with 3,515 youth and 956 adult volunteers, up from 2,861 youth and 862 adults reported last spring."

Is that Tuscaloosa ALABAMA !! One of the southern states that was to have mass exodus?? The Council may have had other tricks up their sleeve to bring in this upturn, rather then standing on a corner waving a flag "Gay youth now Welcomed".. But, one thing for sure, the change did not scare people away..

Also there was a comment that of the few CO's that dropped out, the units had a new CO happy to sponsor them in a very short time..

The Doomsday scenario did not happen.. Let's see if there is any uptick.. I don't expect much until the whole gay ban is dropped.. But, we do have a good start to allowing BSA to see that this change will not be disastrous.. Give it a few years for everything to get more comfortable, and then soon we can let the other shoe to drop.

"However, he said if his sons had a gay leader, "we would have to take a look at making other arrangements."" Gay leaders (role models) is and has been the main issue from the beginning. Barry

If you are all under the same CO I don't see why not.. All funds are really owned by your CO.. So all your doing is shuffling money from one of the CO's bank accounts into another of the CO's bank accounts.

Another solution to ask the scouts is if they want to attend. In my troop, during their annual planning they assumed they had to do _____ because that is what has always been done, None of them really cared for it, but a few of the adults that have been around really like it and these scouters try to sell the district and council camporees to the scouts. These adults wonder why all but the most involved scouts (read: those who never miss anything) don't go. The scouts were surprised when they realized they didn't have to put ____ camporee on the calendar.

 

Often boys do only what they know and/or think they are allowed/expected to do. Sometimes reminding the boy leaders that THEY get to decide what the trip will be. Some might not realize they can contact other troops and do joint trips, heck even a klondike derby outside of the council/district. If the boys know they have options and that the adults support their decisions. I use the 3 questions 1. Is it safe? 2. Is it Scouting 3. Is it fun? as the deciding metric with my boy leaders.

I have the solution, I've seen it used in YMCA little league in our area. Don't keep score and give all the scouts who participate a trophy at the end. It's not very good for developing character, but nobody goes home disappointed either, especially the adults. I came from a very competitive troop and the first question I ask all of you is what if the scouts don't want to play? To be competitive, the scouts have to practice a lot. I've never seen a competitive patrol or troop that didn't have some adult motivation behind them. I'm sure even the super patrol the OP describes has an adult in the back ground. How bad do "you" want your scouts to win? That is likely the measure of well the scouts will do. Like every competition in life that we participate, practice is required to accel. Are you as an adult willing to accept that because the scouts will need a little help. Barry

But, pushing for patrols to be more team oriented doesn't necessarily mean a lot of adult leadership, maybe at the beginning to give it a push, but the outcome of very team oriented patrols means working well together without the adult influence.

Well then if that is the case, then their weakness will be the fact they are not a well oiled team, so in order to beat them, it is getting that teamwork solid in your patrol..

Also what I saw of older patrols were they really knew how to pump up and over excel in team spirit, they had a lot of fun with laying it on thick, real thick.. You have certain ages in scouts that seem embarrassed to be exuberant.. If that is the case with yours, try to get your scouts to notice this in them.. Scout spirit is very easy to do, but you have to give your shy scouts, or scouts who are trying to look more mature, to see these older scouts with this over done scout spirit, and how it really helps them wring out extra points for their team. Then work on that over the next week also..

Is it just the Klondike?.. These other troops don't do this for the other camporees?.. Weird..

I always like the cub scouts chuckwagon. At least the way we do it here, have to remember other places don't do it the same.. They ask the Packs to put together teams with a equal mix of tigers, wolves, bears, and Webs.. You don't get the teamwork, but you get an mix of knowledge from the various groups.. Some Webs have forgotten things learned in Tigers, and of course Tigers or wolves will not know much about things learned in Bear or Webs..

I didn't go back and catch up on the thread about all the changes. But the last time I read there, it was just speculation that something that was sketchedly written may mean belt loops might be removed. Now, you seem certain in this thread.. What changed? How come you are now certain?

Anyway mixed feelings..

I did worry about the belt loops causing a drain on the Pack funds if parents or Den leaders got too wrapped up in them.. But so far our pack earns a few, but not many.. And I have since learned there Is a decent list of requirements to earn them. I do not know if that always was, and in the 1990's when my son went through it, his pack wasn't aware of it, or if things have changed in the 18-20 years since.. When my son went through if he played one marble game he got the marble belt loop, paint one picture and got the artist belt loop etc.. It was as easy as sneezing.. Our Pack back then limited it to they would only pay for one belt loop of each type in your cub scout career, because you were allowed to earn the same one for each scout year.. So they could re-earn the artist one 5 times over.. It really was a drain on the Pack.. But with the requirement list (truly followed), then it did seem to help the boys get use to the merit badge system in boy scouts..

Also I pray they don't do away with the belt loops to replace with patches that need to be sewed on.. Yuck.. As a parent, I did not enjoy sewing all that on.. And if on something these kids grew out of.. Buying a new size and removing all the old bling from the old article of clothing, to re-sew on the new article.. Was daunting.. Belt loops were much kinder to the parent..

From reading those slides, it really seemed to me, there are changes coming, but at this stage, they only had an idea of goals they wanted to accomplish. The execution date is still in the future, and the exact concrete program that will be built to meet these goals has not been worked out yet..

As scouter99 says, some troops simply have patrols that are made up that way, with the tenderfoots in a new patrol, then after that if they don't mix them up age wise, they always stay age based.. Sometimes these can be stronger not only for the reason they are all older scouts, but they are older scouts who have figured out very successful teamwork over being together in the same patrol for years and years.. Besides this to be able to stay age based, without having to shuffle at least a few grades together as they thin out, means it's not only a large troop, but a large troop that keep the boys interested and engaged right up to their eighteenth birthday, with little drop out.. It is a troop doing everything right..! Never belonged to one of these, but I do know a few like this, they are definitely a sight to behold, and very hard to beat, especially the older boy patrol.

I have been in a troop that tried it both ways.. Age based with a new patrol, and annually shuffling the patrols up, to fix patrol that got too small due to drop outs, and also get a combo of older & younger scouts as well as try to keep the scouts that tend to fight each other in separate patrols.. Both have advantages and disadvantages..

Also, sometime for a Klondike or some other camporee, a patrol has been created out of several different patrols.. But, not to win a competition. More like only 6 boys are going 2 from this patrol, 1 from this patrol, and 3 from the third patrol.. So presto, the group together to make one patrol for the camporee.. Not the best solution, as the boys haven't worked together at all.. (Could never get boys to commit to anything until the Thursday scout meeting when the camporee started either that Friday night, or Saturday morning.)

'

But, if you are sure that some troops do cheat, and combine their boys for an ultimate "winner" group.. Then, you could beat them by practice and a pure desire to do so.. They might practice for a month also.. But, if your patrols work on various teamwork activities all year long, then have a month of practice, you will have an advantage..

I find it hard to believe a troop will do this though.. To do this, they would have to pick the "winners" and the "loosers" between the scouts in their troop.. Even if it is totally by age, this is not a good feeling to have your patrol broken up, and you be placed in the "looser" patrol. Would make me as a scout really want to attend the camporee.. Whoopie.. I'm a looser !

By the way, if the OP is still around and we haven't scared you off, I would like to alter what I said about the IH being absolute, and COR as their spokesman being very close to absolute.. There are some exception, but it would have to be something that is a strict BSA policy that the CO has signed a contract agreeing to follow in order to obtain their charter.. Or something that you feel is mental abuse to certain scouts..

 

Ex.

They want you to hand out the rank advancement as candy.. Now this would have to be a definite statement of "just give it to them", or "give them this merit badge, but don't have them do requirements A, B or C.. BSA is very particular that no one add or remove from advancement requirements.. But, this has to be an absolute.. Not a disagreement about where the bar of competency should be.. ie. one wants it awarded on the first attempt the other side wants it awarded when they can do it blindfolded with one hand tied behind their back..

 

Or if they are telling you that if a homosexual comes into the unit, to be nasty and unwelcoming so that he quickly moves on.. Or make up a ridiculous excuse why you can not allow them in the troop, like you have to many scouts already..

 

Here is a link to what is signed annually by the CO in order to charter a BSA unit.

 

http://www.scouting.org/filestore/membership/pdf/524-182_web.pdf

 

Again though.. You could get BSA involved if they are out and out not following the charter agreements, but.. then it is up to the CO to decide to comply -or- to give up the charter (and thus the BSA program.) Again, their decision to keep all the equipment & money etc, or to let you relocate to a new CO and they will sign the equipment/money over to your new CO for your unit to continue to use with them.

Can I recommend anything besides the CO rules, unless it is strictly against the BSA overall program, child abuse or illegal.. No..

Could we give more advise with more information.. Figure out some ideas of a compromise, offer some positives of moving closer to the CO ideas, or how they can take what they think is a turd and polish it up some and still have a good program.. Sure.. Can't offer anything like that.. But, still I am fine that given the sketchy post, we have answered to the best of our ability.

Agree with JoeBob - sometimes you are a great contributor to the thread, and other times you are not.. I guess it depends on what side of the bed you roll out of it your are a total grump or a pleasant contributor.. Right now trying to defend why we should all treat new posters with hostility, is not you at your finest.