moosetracker

Eagledad - Absolutely not, I'm fine with BSA;s change to values.. our disagreement is not about if there is duty to God.. But, what a god can be.. If a scout believes a rock is a higher being, and can explain why, that is fine to BSA. Don't know if anyone is a rock worshipper, but many look at nature as their higher power.. The trees, the rivers, the wind etc.. Many others have a feeling something larger then themselves is there, but have aside from there is something, that is the extent of their belief in a higher power..

 

From these people with no religion, but a belief in a higher power, to expect them to state to you what black and white moral ethics their god requires from them is silly, and not required to be in BSA..

 

Pack18Alex - Jews might not do hymns, but Catholics and LDS d.. Growing up protestant, I never did a hymn before/after a meal.. Gosh, my father was a protestant minister.. No hymns at meals EVER, a prayer yes.. I have been in different denominations of protestant church's.. No singing for our meals.. EVER.. Who sings for their supper??

 

Scouts own??? It's freewheeling to be non-denominational, When taught how to do one at Woodbadge we learned things like, don't ask people to remove hats as some faiths do not, the word God wasn't spelled out in our program, instead you were to write it as G-d because Jews find it disrespectful.. Prayers are either totally generic or you hop around with a protestant prayer, Jewish prayer, Muslim prayer etc.. To try to give everyone a part (most people just go generic.).. Scouts own is to try not to exclude anyone.. But, I will admit it is much more Christian then Jewish, but that's because most are Christian, but if you have Muslim, or Jewish or whatever, scouts own should ask them to share with others something about their faith during the service.

 

Discussing religion is not Protestant only.. I know our CO a Catholic church has a bible study class.. I would imagine they also discuss and try to interpret the Bible in it same as protestants.. Sunday school classes or communion classes are to discuss your religion, this is not just a protestant program, definatly both are part of Catholics program LDS at least has Sunday schools.. With LDS a friend who was LDS, and she discussed their faith with their children.. Jahovah witness (not protestant forgot about them).. Definitely love to discuss their religion.. They come to your door to discuss to you about their religion.

Also - I think I did state that per any service I went to they seemed to all conform to a fairly similar format, but that I didn't know about all formats.. Protestant simply isn't a single religion, but a cluster of various religions with various beliefs.. So, there definitely may be a group out there that flys by the seat of their pants.. I have seen some TV shows of some type of service that seems pretty lose and fun.. Normally it is of a black congregation group that gets up and sings and people just get up and scream "Praise God" or talk in tongues or say whatever they are feeling.. I am not even sure if there are really congregations like that or if that is TV hype.. But, the background of the church is fairly plain and low key, so the church itself looks protestant like.. But... I haven't gone to a BSA scouts own service that is that way.. But, in other parts of the country.. Maybe this is how it is run, nothing is planned and you just wait for someone to pop up and start a hymn or say something or whatever..

In our area, our services pass out a brochure with a format, and it is set up with specific hymns and prayers.. leading into the Sermon.. the offerings.. the benediction.. then the hymn and then we are done.. Therefore, I will conceded to say the BSA services I have been to seem to have a format, and that format is like a protestant or from what I see the modern style Catholic services I have seen.. But, I wouldn't call it free style.. If I am not mistaken, I think that the wood badge program, when they have to go through teaching a Scouts-own, and then getting the participants to do their own, recommend this format.

This observation is only from what I know from the troop my son was in.. Of the drop outs, it's was about 1/3 involved parent and 2/3 uninvolved parent. Of those who got Eagle or stayed until 18 and aged out for us 100% involved parent... Well one scout had an uninvolved biological parent, but had scouting parents... That was my son's best friend.. His parents were not involved, but we adopted him for scouting and got him to and from scouting and was his sounding board (along with my son) as we drove back from a meeting..

Since others don't have similar observation, makes me try to reflect on if the troop treated the two groups differently, and did not give those with uninvolved parents the attention they needed.. But, I don't recall anything like that.. Since we left a troop specifically due to there choosing who were scouts deserving the attention, and what scouts deserved not just no attention, but unfair obsticles thrown in their paths.. I think I would have noticed it.. But, I don't recall that.. Maybe a few headaches, that had you rolling your eyes whenever they started up whatever it was that was like nails on a chalkboard... Whining, bullying, avoiding doing their fair share of the chores... etc.. But those scouts could have had involved parents or not..

I do think a lot did had to do with if the parents got them to or from meetings or events.. For events, small events would be reason son couldn't go.. Siblings birthday, Aunt (who lives two towns over) is visiting, didn't eat his green beans.. etc..

Ryan had all of the requirements done. Isn't there something in the rules about the Board of Review being possible after the 18th birthday if all of the other reqs are already completed prior to turning 18?

Hopefully Ryan didn't age out in the meantime.. Even so, he may have become disillusioned and never came back.. It is sad but true that one negative scouter can derail the enthusiasm of any youth.

Have not heard anything good coming from the change, but also nothing bad coming from the change, since the change has occurred. I had heard of a few nasty things during the time between vote and enactment, where scouters could still be nasty and get away with it.

Eagledad - Absolutely not, I'm fine with BSA;s change to values.. our disagreement is not about if there is duty to God.. But, what a god can be.. If a scout believes a rock is a higher being, and can explain why, that is fine to BSA. Don't know if anyone is a rock worshipper, but many look at nature as their higher power.. The trees, the rivers, the wind etc.. Many others have a feeling something larger then themselves is there, but have aside from there is something, that is the extent of their belief in a higher power..

 

From these people with no religion, but a belief in a higher power, to expect them to state to you what black and white moral ethics their god requires from them is silly, and not required to be in BSA..

 

Pack18Alex - Jews might not do hymns, but Catholics and LDS d.. Growing up protestant, I never did a hymn before/after a meal.. Gosh, my father was a protestant minister.. No hymns at meals EVER, a prayer yes.. I have been in different denominations of protestant church's.. No singing for our meals.. EVER.. Who sings for their supper??

 

Scouts own??? It's freewheeling to be non-denominational, When taught how to do one at Woodbadge we learned things like, don't ask people to remove hats as some faiths do not, the word God wasn't spelled out in our program, instead you were to write it as G-d because Jews find it disrespectful.. Prayers are either totally generic or you hop around with a protestant prayer, Jewish prayer, Muslim prayer etc.. To try to give everyone a part (most people just go generic.).. Scouts own is to try not to exclude anyone.. But, I will admit it is much more Christian then Jewish, but that's because most are Christian, but if you have Muslim, or Jewish or whatever, scouts own should ask them to share with others something about their faith during the service.

 

Discussing religion is not Protestant only.. I know our CO a Catholic church has a bible study class.. I would imagine they also discuss and try to interpret the Bible in it same as protestants.. Sunday school classes or communion classes are to discuss your religion, this is not just a protestant program, definatly both are part of Catholics program LDS at least has Sunday schools.. With LDS a friend who was LDS, and she discussed their faith with their children.. Jahovah witness (not protestant forgot about them).. Definitely love to discuss their religion.. They come to your door to discuss to you about their religion.

It might also say that in some Protestant churches, they had at least two different formats..

As for churches, I could see buying an old church.. I am surprised that some churches though were built so ornate for an original protestant church.. I am just not use to it.. But, each protestant church is really their own in ideas and beliefs, so I am sure there are some that are that way..

I don't see how they think trashing some leadership at the roundtable, then trashing other parts of the leadership to others in the unit etc.. Is the winning way to turn a pack with a few problems around.. Seems, more like they are moving people in line for a war.. Don't know if they are hoping for a civil war within the unit, but may just be unit against district.. Either way, it means the pack blowing up and either dying or becoming very small..

And exactly as other said, the District leadership has no say over the unit volunteers.. Can not fire them...

Welcome to the forums.. Some troops may be suspicious of someone they don't know who is offering help with no kids, then others might respond.. If you don't hear anything, look at being a Unit Commissioner for some of the units in your area, as that may get them to know you. Nothing says that you have to stay in the UC position.. Or else you can offer to work at district.. Working at district events, units get to know you and you them.. Until then, at least around us, for district events any district people without a unit usually form a patrol and camp together. Then again, you make contacts working the events..

Agree with others, but also would like to add one thought.. Has this MC ever done a BOR? If not he may also feel timid about volunteering for the "unknown" where he does not know what will be expected of him, and if he will make a fool of himself.. Our troop would always set up a BOR ahead of time, but if we have new committee members ask one or two of them to sit in and observe so they are comfortable with the process before they are asked to be a member of the board.

>>Eagledad - Absolutely not, I'm fine with BSA;s change to values.<<

 

I don't understand, what changes to values? Vision, Mission Statement, Oath and Law have not changed. .

 

Barry

Eagledad - Absolutely not, I'm fine with BSA;s change to values.. our disagreement is not about if there is duty to God.. But, what a god can be.. If a scout believes a rock is a higher being, and can explain why, that is fine to BSA. Don't know if anyone is a rock worshipper, but many look at nature as their higher power.. The trees, the rivers, the wind etc.. Many others have a feeling something larger then themselves is there, but have aside from there is something, that is the extent of their belief in a higher power..

 

From these people with no religion, but a belief in a higher power, to expect them to state to you what black and white moral ethics their god requires from them is silly, and not required to be in BSA..

 

Pack18Alex - Jews might not do hymns, but Catholics and LDS d.. Growing up protestant, I never did a hymn before/after a meal.. Gosh, my father was a protestant minister.. No hymns at meals EVER, a prayer yes.. I have been in different denominations of protestant church's.. No singing for our meals.. EVER.. Who sings for their supper??

 

Scouts own??? It's freewheeling to be non-denominational, When taught how to do one at Woodbadge we learned things like, don't ask people to remove hats as some faiths do not, the word God wasn't spelled out in our program, instead you were to write it as G-d because Jews find it disrespectful.. Prayers are either totally generic or you hop around with a protestant prayer, Jewish prayer, Muslim prayer etc.. To try to give everyone a part (most people just go generic.).. Scouts own is to try not to exclude anyone.. But, I will admit it is much more Christian then Jewish, but that's because most are Christian, but if you have Muslim, or Jewish or whatever, scouts own should ask them to share with others something about their faith during the service.

 

Discussing religion is not Protestant only.. I know our CO a Catholic church has a bible study class.. I would imagine they also discuss and try to interpret the Bible in it same as protestants.. Sunday school classes or communion classes are to discuss your religion, this is not just a protestant program, definatly both are part of Catholics program LDS at least has Sunday schools.. With LDS a friend who was LDS, and she discussed their faith with their children.. Jahovah witness (not protestant forgot about them).. Definitely love to discuss their religion.. They come to your door to discuss to you about their religion.

Opening hymn (or 2)

prayer

Welcoming new people and noting people we need to keep in our prayers

reading of a few verses from the bible

(Once a month) a hymn and communion

Lords Prayer

hymn

Sermon

hymn

offering

hymn

Now I go to more liberal denominations.. The more conservative denominations may have a more formal layout.. But, I would be surprised if the conservatives just wing it, they are more set in their ways and want a routine.

Now except for the Lords prayer, the prayer, the bible reading, they hymns vary every week.. The Welcoming section may be always done by the minister, or he may ask the church members to introduce themselves or announce people who are sick or need to be in our prayers for some reason. The sermon depends on the minister, and his writing style.. I am use to most being about current events and making reference to bible passages or how it relates to how you should act as a Christian.. A few stay pretty much biblical, with maybe a comment for how it would relate in current day..

The Liberal Protestants are very low key and informal in their service, but it is definitely is set in a very predictable format.. One or two extras may be added in a church like one church early on had the young children come up, the minister told them a story for them, then they left for their Sunday School classes and did not fidget all through the service.

I have seem some Catholic services with pomp-and-circumstance.. The priests in fancy gowns and waving the smoke pot thing, with fancy robes and hats.. But unless it is different depending on the church, I haven't seen it for a while.. The Catholic church seems to run close to the Protestant format in the few I have seen in the last few years.. Perhaps the pomp-and-circumstance is on special occasions? Who knows..

The Episcopal funeral I saw seemed real strange, as it looked more Catholic, the church was heavy and ornate, not one but several priests and you could tell there was a pecking order with first in line coming down the isle in the fine robes and two foot tall pointed hats you see on Catholic popes or bishops, and they had the smoking pot.. I was surprise to find it was a protestant church, and years later very surprised to be told the episcopal is one of our very liberal denominations.. But, like I said, it was a funeral and the person was one who worked for the Episcopal church, so she had many friends in the church.. So an extra special service perhaps.. Still the church had that heavy ornate gothic feel old Catholic churches have.. Protestant churches are usually very plain, maybe a few stain glass windows.. But a lot don't even have that.

If I was a Tiger den leader, I would question whether to even teach the boys the Cub Scout promise and Law of the Pack. I know it is still a requirement, but since they are being discontinued in 2015 and being replaced with the Scout Oath and Scout Law, I would just start teaching them that instead. When they announced the change, they should have given the units authority to change immediately, if they wanted.

Eagledad - Absolutely not, I'm fine with BSA;s change to values.. our disagreement is not about if there is duty to God.. But, what a god can be.. If a scout believes a rock is a higher being, and can explain why, that is fine to BSA. Don't know if anyone is a rock worshipper, but many look at nature as their higher power.. The trees, the rivers, the wind etc.. Many others have a feeling something larger then themselves is there, but have aside from there is something, that is the extent of their belief in a higher power..

From these people with no religion, but a belief in a higher power, to expect them to state to you what black and white moral ethics their god requires from them is silly, and not required to be in BSA..

Pack18Alex - Jews might not do hymns, but Catholics and LDS d.. Growing up protestant, I never did a hymn before/after a meal.. Gosh, my father was a protestant minister.. No hymns at meals EVER, a prayer yes.. I have been in different denominations of protestant church's.. No singing for our meals.. EVER.. Who sings for their supper??

Scouts own??? It's freewheeling to be non-denominational, When taught how to do one at Woodbadge we learned things like, don't ask people to remove hats as some faiths do not, the word God wasn't spelled out in our program, instead you were to write it as G-d because Jews find it disrespectful.. Prayers are either totally generic or you hop around with a protestant prayer, Jewish prayer, Muslim prayer etc.. To try to give everyone a part (most people just go generic.).. Scouts own is to try not to exclude anyone.. But, I will admit it is much more Christian then Jewish, but that's because most are Christian, but if you have Muslim, or Jewish or whatever, scouts own should ask them to share with others something about their faith during the service.

Discussing religion is not Protestant only.. I know our CO a Catholic church has a bible study class.. I would imagine they also discuss and try to interpret the Bible in it same as protestants.. Sunday school classes or communion classes are to discuss your religion, this is not just a protestant program, definatly both are part of Catholics program LDS at least has Sunday schools.. With LDS a friend who was LDS, and she discussed their faith with their children.. Jahovah witness (not protestant forgot about them).. Definitely love to discuss their religion.. They come to your door to discuss to you about their religion.

Well personally I disagree with you both.. Since you can believe in a greater power, but do not need to subscribe to a religion. Or that your greater power must dictate your moral values.. Then your greater power can have nothing to do with caring about humans morals.. It could care less with humans over other living things. It could care less about how you treat other human beings, but be very upset about how you care for the planet.

Again your religion gives you a black and white morality, and I guess you are so dependent on that morality you can not even contemplate having moral values without it being dictated to you my your religious leaders.. Other religious people can find their morality between religion and other factors, and if they lost faith in their religion for some reason, can find a way to navigate in this world. Still others who can believe that some greater power had some hand in the blueprint of creating us, can find their morals through other things in their world, family, friends, community, government, and great leaders they have met or read about.. They are very active in BSA, can say the Scout Oath and Pledge of allegiance with no problem and still not attribute a single nuance of their moral values to this greater power. Then there are the atheists who are not in the BSA, but get their moral values pretty much in the same manner as the third group of members of the BSA..

If your religion is the only thing you can credit for defining your morals.. That is fine. That is you, and you are entitled to follow your beliefs.. But, yes, atheist can have good morals as well as the second or third group, who do not get all their morals if any from a supernatural power who defined morality for them.. All morals do not have to come from the black and white of your religious beliefs, you can be in BSA and have no religious beliefs at all.. Religion needs a God or Gods, but, belief in a God or a greater power requires no religion or religious belief.. BSA has many members who do not claim to follow a religion of any kind. If your duty to your God is nothing, well that is your belief, and that is what you follow, but baring that you are expected to do your duty to your Country and your duty to the Scout Law.

Even with this fact that BSA does not need you to have a power to the supernatural to define morality.. Or if you have a religion, then even if your religious beliefs are totally different then the guy who sits next to you in your patrol.. BSA can mold all of you into a person who has good morals and be a good citizen.. You can do this, because unless you are in a youth group that is members of your church only, then you are doing it.. So pat yourself on the back, and take credit for doing a super job with a mixed group of youth whose morality is built on "it depends"..

Rick_in_CA - I thought the boy scouts got kicked out due to both atheists and gays.. BSA was always anti-atheists, the religious right forced them to add the anti-homosexual piece.. I think had they not the BSA would be in much better shape today for various reasons, but we still would have got kicked out of schools.. We need to be open to everyone..

Pack_18_Alex - I disagree with BSA being defacto Protestant.. What happened to the strong hold that Catholics & LDS have on the BSA?.. Perhaps Christian was the word you were looking for??? Still with Protestant it is a mixed bag of a lot of different things.. We have very liberal protestant religions and very conservative religions and everything in-between. Protestant is a hodge podge of a lot of different religious veiws, seems like the catch all for anything Christian that is not Catholic or LDS.. We get new denominations all the time, because protestant denominations split off all the time.. Why? Because of disagreements on their interpretation of the Bible and what is and is not a sin.. About the only thing that protestants have in common is maybe the bible is your good book, and specifically the teachings of Christ.. The teaching of Christ is subject to some interpretation.. The bible have wildly different interpretations, and different things are retired as not being at all relative, and various reasons why something is important, and other things are not at all important.

Morality whether it is protestant, Christian or non-secular is based on "it-depends", just like someone getting their morals from non-religious sources.. Because not all religions believe the same things about right and wrong.. Especially not the Protestant community..

Pretty much anything BSA has in advancement having to do with understanding your religion is to have the scouts work with their parents on.. Why? Because, there is too many varying differences to do the training at a BSA meeting.. Any Scouts own I have gone to is basically pointing to nature, or talking about a historic figure who did something wise or nice for his fellow man..

I have never heard anyone say something like "You can't beat up on little Billy or you won't go to heaven", or "God wants you to do community service"..

But, given that scouting is local, perhaps your BSA experience is way different then my BSA experience.. But sorry, Protestant morals being set in stone?? I think you need to visit various Protestant denominations, or go to one about ready to split into two separate denominations, and is having a civil war on the issue.

I don't think you give yourself enough credit Moose, you can hardly say that your post are kind to conservatives. It is clear that you think yourself better, instead of different. I also get a kick out of liberals not being angry at this concervative Pope. Must be his delivery because his grounded principles are the same. But in the premise of your post, if religion were taken out of the oath and law, then what would anchor the traits of the law to have any continuity to the vision of making moral decision makers? How could an organization maintain integrity if the values are based on the ground level of the leader who looks no farther than teaching boys the skills that will get them to the next rank? Like any great movement, the foundation of its vision has to come from something greating than man reacting to emotions of the moment, otherwise it follows changes in the wind. As soon as the population looses the respect of the scouting's values, it looses its mystic to something better than just a club that goes camping. Repeating the oath, law, even the Pledge of Allegiance will fade away as old time rituals that hold little meaning. Go visit the YMCA if you doubt me. I'm not saying it won't happen, I'm just saying it won't be a values program when it does. By they way, I've heard this is exaclty what happened to the Canadian Scouts. Barry

First off a belief in a higher being, does not mean a belief in a religion or a religious organization.. Religion is definitely man made.. Which is why there are so many variations believing very different things.. I can believe in a higher being, and have a belief that I have no need for a religion at all.

Second a moral compass is grounded in many things that are not about religion. Your parents and family, your government, your community, people you look up to whether that person is personally known, or you just read about him in a bibliography..

Eagledad "How could an organization maintain integrity if the values are based on the ground level of the leader who looks no farther than teaching boys the skills that will get them to the next rank?"

So the Explorers that is another BSA organization has no integrity?.. Colleges and Medical Schools have no integrity? The red cross has no integrity?

Of course an organization can have integrity and not be founded in religion and can even interest people to join in order to learn skills that help them to help others and to fulfill the needs of their moral compass whether that be due to a religion or an event in their past or someone they admire and aspire to be like.

Do I think I am better?.. No I am different.. But, I simply like the view on my side of the fence.. The grass is much greener over here. I also love mentally sparring with people who are different them me.. I find it fun.

...Liberal ideas and Religion are not the same mix as vinegar and water.. Perhaps in YOUR religion' date=' where YOU live it is, but not every where..[/quote']

 

True. I'm both Liberal and Catholic. I don't see them as contradicting each other. Some people do, but it's just different interpretations of the faith. There are always elements of all religions that the majority of the practitioners ignore or modify. We don't accept slavery any more evem though you could point to the bible for justification of the practice. Nor do we largely accept underage marriages, in the US at least. It's socially unacceptable, even though religiously it could be permitted.

 

So some folks want to say that there is something in the bible that tells me I should look unfavorably on gay people. But my faith, my personal convictions and my religious beliefs, they all tell me otherwise.

Slavery in the bible is the same as homosexuals, It is mentioned and how you interpret it is how you interpret it.. And if you think it is something to be retired, then it is something to be retired.

 

Many people have interpreted the word of God in the bible as him truly condoning and having no problem with it.

I guess I have some difficulty too, even though not a atheist.. 2 packs, 3 troops, 1 Venture crew and fairly good knowledge of other units though I was never a member of.. The oath does have God in it. And you definitely can't think you will melt and fizzle into a puddle by saying an oath or pledge with a nod to god in it.. But, none of these units "... is wrapped around encouraging individual values based from one source, which is God... " Very little about god is discussed at all.. Oh some of these units had a church as the CO, the pack I now work with has one member from that church. Last year we had someone else in this pack who was the one & only a church member Adult/scout.. Before that no one in the other 2 units associated to a church had a member from the church.. The other three were not associated to a church at all.

 

Instead, everyone had different beliefs and levels of belief from serious church goer to "I am open minded there might be something there, don't know what." This didn't make a solid wrap around anything.. It more made a topic you rarely broached, except pointing out at camp there is a chapel, anyone is free to go if they want on Sunday morning. None of these 6 units ever ran there own "Scouts Own", nor do I remember anyone running one at a district event that ran over Sunday morning.. Everyone too busy packing up and clearing out.. Prayer at meals only if some scout needed it signed off for his advancement, scout camp mess hall, otherwise never.. Prayer may be at an Eagle court of honor or not.. That is the extent of anything religious in these units.

 

Don't get me wrong, there are units tied tightly to their CO, maybe all members of the church.. The LDS move out before Sunday, so they do pay heavy attention to their religious side of their youth group.. I am sure a few with open enrollment pay more heed then my units, but I have witnessed many units and have not seen it.. So, I would say my 6 units are pretty typical for most BSA units..

 

Also many religious people are liberal leaning.. Even from the same denomination.. Depends on what you consider the important thing to spotlight in your religious teachings. (Social judgment of others and keeping the sinner at arms length -or- helping the poor and needy, and getting elbow deep in aiding them.) Take my two scout members of our packs current CO.. Last year's member left due to the vote, other one joined this Fall with a Tiger scout (so doubt due to the vote.. But, didn't dampen their joining.) The Catholic Priest (our CO).. Has no problem with the BSA vote, and is fine with them opening it up to adult homosexuals. No, idea what his opinion would be to opening to atheists. I doubt it will be an issue in my scouting career, but sure someday it will be an issue..

 

Actually I am very liberal, everyone on that forum should know that by now. Yet, I enjoy talking with our CO, Catholic priest.. We have not disagreed on anything that I can think of, he is a typical north-eastern liberal.. We both get a kick out of their new Pope, who says he is not liberal, but his teachings don't make any liberals angry.. Liberal ideas and Religion are not the same mix as vinegar and water.. Perhaps in YOUR religion, where YOU live it is, but not every where..

But, if you want to hang your hat on his past words against abortions, as the only worth while thing he ever said and done.. Well, that would be expected. It is where your spotlight is stuck..

...Liberal ideas and Religion are not the same mix as vinegar and water.. Perhaps in YOUR religion' date=' where YOU live it is, but not every where..[/quote']

 

True. I'm both Liberal and Catholic. I don't see them as contradicting each other. Some people do, but it's just different interpretations of the faith. There are always elements of all religions that the majority of the practitioners ignore or modify. We don't accept slavery any more evem though you could point to the bible for justification of the practice. Nor do we largely accept underage marriages, in the US at least. It's socially unacceptable, even though religiously it could be permitted.

 

So some folks want to say that there is something in the bible that tells me I should look unfavorably on gay people. But my faith, my personal convictions and my religious beliefs, they all tell me otherwise.

Something has gone looney tooney with the posts again.. Sorry Ember, not really a comment on your post, just didn't want to start a new post.. The marker for the Thread is stuck at my last post (the comments haven't registered a new post for a few weeks.. But Sentinel & EmberMikes' post have not registered as a new post to this thread and they should have.. Is anyone else getting the same thing or is this a personal computer problem of mine?

I guess I have some difficulty too, even though not a atheist.. 2 packs, 3 troops, 1 Venture crew and fairly good knowledge of other units though I was never a member of.. The oath does have God in it. And you definitely can't think you will melt and fizzle into a puddle by saying an oath or pledge with a nod to god in it.. But, none of these units "... is wrapped around encouraging individual values based from one source, which is God... " Very little about god is discussed at all.. Oh some of these units had a church as the CO, the pack I now work with has one member from that church. Last year we had someone else in this pack who was the one & only a church member Adult/scout.. Before that no one in the other 2 units associated to a church had a member from the church.. The other three were not associated to a church at all.

 

Instead, everyone had different beliefs and levels of belief from serious church goer to "I am open minded there might be something there, don't know what." This didn't make a solid wrap around anything.. It more made a topic you rarely broached, except pointing out at camp there is a chapel, anyone is free to go if they want on Sunday morning. None of these 6 units ever ran there own "Scouts Own", nor do I remember anyone running one at a district event that ran over Sunday morning.. Everyone too busy packing up and clearing out.. Prayer at meals only if some scout needed it signed off for his advancement, scout camp mess hall, otherwise never.. Prayer may be at an Eagle court of honor or not.. That is the extent of anything religious in these units.

 

Don't get me wrong, there are units tied tightly to their CO, maybe all members of the church.. The LDS move out before Sunday, so they do pay heavy attention to their religious side of their youth group.. I am sure a few with open enrollment pay more heed then my units, but I have witnessed many units and have not seen it.. So, I would say my 6 units are pretty typical for most BSA units..

 

Also many religious people are liberal leaning.. Even from the same denomination.. Depends on what you consider the important thing to spotlight in your religious teachings. (Social judgment of others and keeping the sinner at arms length -or- helping the poor and needy, and getting elbow deep in aiding them.) Take my two scout members of our packs current CO.. Last year's member left due to the vote, other one joined this Fall with a Tiger scout (so doubt due to the vote.. But, didn't dampen their joining.) The Catholic Priest (our CO).. Has no problem with the BSA vote, and is fine with them opening it up to adult homosexuals. No, idea what his opinion would be to opening to atheists. I doubt it will be an issue in my scouting career, but sure someday it will be an issue..

 

Actually I am very liberal, everyone on that forum should know that by now. Yet, I enjoy talking with our CO, Catholic priest.. We have not disagreed on anything that I can think of, he is a typical north-eastern liberal.. We both get a kick out of their new Pope, who says he is not liberal, but his teachings don't make any liberals angry.. Liberal ideas and Religion are not the same mix as vinegar and water.. Perhaps in YOUR religion, where YOU live it is, but not every where..

I do not fool myself into thinking the Father is fully supportive of all Democratic ideas.. It was funny during the last presidential election at first the Catholic church went full steam for trying to get their church members to vote republican.. Even so far as every catholic priest was suppose to read a letter from the Pope condemning the Obamacare mandate for birth control, did this political commercial against Obama (at least some catholic organization).. anyway very political.. Then about a month later when they figured out the Republicans planned to cut aid to the poor, and expected churches and other non-profits to pick up the slack.. Which they said was ludicrous they could only do so much.. Suddenly, all went quiet on the political front for Catholics, accept a statement to vote how you saw fit..

As stated The Pope isn't political, but he has yet to say anything that has angered the Liberals, and plenty to anger the Conservatives.. It is what he chooses to spotlight as important, and what he chooses to not spotlight.. Same with our IH.. He might not fight for a chance to marry a same-sex couple, but he doesn't see it as the cross to die on either.. That is good enough for me.

I guess I have some difficulty too, even though not a atheist.. 2 packs, 3 troops, 1 Venture crew and fairly good knowledge of other units though I was never a member of.. The oath does have God in it. And you definitely can't think you will melt and fizzle into a puddle by saying an oath or pledge with a nod to god in it.. But, none of these units "... is wrapped around encouraging individual values based from one source, which is God... " Very little about god is discussed at all.. Oh some of these units had a church as the CO, the pack I now work with has one member from that church. Last year we had someone else in this pack who was the one & only a church member Adult/scout.. Before that no one in the other 2 units associated to a church had a member from the church.. The other three were not associated to a church at all.

Instead, everyone had different beliefs and levels of belief from serious church goer to "I am open minded there might be something there, don't know what." This didn't make a solid wrap around anything.. It more made a topic you rarely broached, except pointing out at camp there is a chapel, anyone is free to go if they want on Sunday morning. None of these 6 units ever ran there own "Scouts Own", nor do I remember anyone running one at a district event that ran over Sunday morning.. Everyone too busy packing up and clearing out.. Prayer at meals only if some scout needed it signed off for his advancement, scout camp mess hall, otherwise never.. Prayer may be at an Eagle court of honor or not.. That is the extent of anything religious in these units.

Don't get me wrong, there are units tied tightly to their CO, maybe all members of the church.. The LDS move out before Sunday, so they do pay heavy attention to their religious side of their youth group.. I am sure a few with open enrollment pay more heed then my units, but I have witnessed many units and have not seen it.. So, I would say my 6 units are pretty typical for most BSA units..

Also many religious people are liberal leaning.. Even from the same denomination.. Depends on what you consider the important thing to spotlight in your religious teachings. (Social judgment of others and keeping the sinner at arms length -or- helping the poor and needy, and getting elbow deep in aiding them.) Take my two scout members of our packs current CO.. Last year's member left due to the vote, other one joined this Fall with a Tiger scout (so doubt due to the vote.. But, didn't dampen their joining.) The Catholic Priest (our CO).. Has no problem with the BSA vote, and is fine with them opening it up to adult homosexuals. No, idea what his opinion would be to opening to atheists. I doubt it will be an issue in my scouting career, but sure someday it will be an issue..

Actually I am very liberal, everyone on that forum should know that by now. Yet, I enjoy talking with our CO, Catholic priest.. We have not disagreed on anything that I can think of, he is a typical north-eastern liberal.. We both get a kick out of their new Pope, who says he is not liberal, but his teachings don't make any liberals angry.. Liberal ideas and Religion are not the same mix as vinegar and water.. Perhaps in YOUR religion, where YOU live it is, but not every where..

To Be the Devils Advocate...Who would be responsible If one of the Boys got hurt and Froze to Death ?

Quote this Quote That..sometimes it is best to play Safe on Both sides..What exactly is an "Outing" and What is a "meeting"?

 

By Not Observing Activities your opening up to Potential Claims...Johnny was Harassed, Johnny Was Assaulted, Johnny was Hurt and It was Not Reported.

 

If It was to Cold outside for Adults, it was to cold outside for the youth.

 

 

Scouter99 Wrote "3. Two Deep. The Guide to Safe Scouting's wording on 2 deep and 1-on-1 are very plainly written, so of course 98% of people have no idea what they mean. 2 deep applies only to outings, and to outings only. Not to troop meetings, not to SM conferences, not to PLCs, not to breakaway portions of an activity. Outings only."

 

They Apply to all things scouting. I am a MBC and It Applies to me. one of the reasons why Merit Badge Colleges are getting so popular. Many Merit Badge Counselors can't over come the 1 on 1.

 

He is saying Scoutmaster can hold a Conference in a Closed Room by himself. There are adults at the meeting after all.

Why does it not apply to meetings and it does to Merit Badge Counselors..We are Not outings. If a Sm can Hold a Conference by Himself a MBC should be able to Teach a Merit Badge 1 on 1 Right?

 

No Matter what Not every Single situation can be written..and Explained in full detail in Scouting literature.

We Stress The Buddy System for Youth why Don't we Stress It for Adults?

There will always be a situation where the Rules and situations Cross.

 

Example: Adult Scouter is Returning From Latrine passes a Single youth Scouter on the way to Latrine..Youth Stops and Says to Adult "Hey Mister Scouter. Your a Merit Badge Counselor for Nature right?" "Yes I am" Mr Scouter replies. " I want to get that Badge." Mr Scouter replies " Talk to me when You Get Back to Camp." Does that situation Violate policy...As Written Yes it Does..No 1 on 1..In spirit No because the Situation was not planned. Can people argue both ways yes...BSA like the Rest of the Society we are getting to legislative and overly paranoid.

To Be the Devils Advocate...Who would be responsible If one of the Boys got hurt and Froze to Death ?

Quote this Quote That..sometimes it is best to play Safe on Both sides..What exactly is an "Outing" and What is a "meeting"?

 

By Not Observing Activities your opening up to Potential Claims...Johnny was Harassed, Johnny Was Assaulted, Johnny was Hurt and It was Not Reported.

 

If It was to Cold outside for Adults, it was to cold outside for the youth.

 

 

Scouter99 Wrote "3. Two Deep. The Guide to Safe Scouting's wording on 2 deep and 1-on-1 are very plainly written, so of course 98% of people have no idea what they mean. 2 deep applies only to outings, and to outings only. Not to troop meetings, not to SM conferences, not to PLCs, not to breakaway portions of an activity. Outings only."

 

They Apply to all things scouting. I am a MBC and It Applies to me. one of the reasons why Merit Badge Colleges are getting so popular. Many Merit Badge Counselors can't over come the 1 on 1.

 

He is saying Scoutmaster can hold a Conference in a Closed Room by himself. There are adults at the meeting after all.

Why does it not apply to meetings and it does to Merit Badge Counselors..We are Not outings. If a Sm can Hold a Conference by Himself a MBC should be able to Teach a Merit Badge 1 on 1 Right?

 

No Matter what Not every Single situation can be written..and Explained in full detail in Scouting literature.

We Stress The Buddy System for Youth why Don't we Stress It for Adults?

There will always be a situation where the Rules and situations Cross.

 

Example: Adult Scouter is Returning From Latrine passes a Single youth Scouter on the way to Latrine..Youth Stops and Says to Adult "Hey Mister Scouter. Your a Merit Badge Counselor for Nature right?" "Yes I am" Mr Scouter replies. " I want to get that Badge." Mr Scouter replies " Talk to me when You Get Back to Camp." Does that situation Violate policy...As Written Yes it Does..No 1 on 1..In spirit No because the Situation was not planned. Can people argue both ways yes...BSA like the Rest of the Society we are getting to legislative and overly paranoid.

You need some work with the boys in your troop if you think all of them would kick an injured or freezing to death scout out of the way and ignore him while they continue playing kickball..

I don't think he is stating y can hold a conference in a closed room, because if not two deep, then no 1 on 1 is at all times.. But.. But those 3 people could be 1 adult and 2 youth or 2 adults and 1 youth.. And youth can buddy up and just go as two.. Like to the latrine at night, you need to take your buddy. And two adults can go as a twosome, with no kids, or as a onesome without a buddy, if just to the latrine, or down to the mess hall.

For the casual meeting in the woods, if the latrine was so far off that there is no one else within view of latrine, then I need to ask, where was the scouts buddy?? But, you are right. In the spirit of scouting "No".. Just move it so you are not 1 on 1 ASAP..

I agree with pappadaddy..

But even on outings.. New scout rules just recently stopped patrols from camping overnight without 2 deep leadership.. But Adults could camp 300' away (Kudo's favorite line).. And be out of view of their youths.. Perfectly legal.. And, if the troop could get the parents brave enough to trust in their scouts, they could still do day trips without adult supervision a hike or bike ride.. Few troops will allow it though..

Anyway.. point is, you do not have to have an Eagle eye on your scouts 100% of the time. Do the scouts need flashlights?? The scouts know what they need. If they did not see a problem, then no problem.. Don't know how dark it was, moon? stars? Street lights?.. I would imagine given 5 minutes the kids eyes adjusted to be able to see decently in the dark..

I think that the current Pack/Troop model is fundamentally broken. The administrative separation causes a problem where the parents have to choose which one to support, and if they have two sons, it's always the troop since "he'll be in the troop soon."

 

But, the Troops never feel the need to help the Pack, and all BSA recruiting is falling on the shoulders of Cub Parents, and that's pretty lame.

 

GSUSA mostly does single-level troops, but you can do a multi-level troop, which lets you run from age 5-12 under one number. You can operate age based patrols under one banner, and mix the levels up as appropriate. Now, they have a "girls choose" model that is different than "girl led," the GSUSA adults are always completely in charge in a was BSA Troop adults are not.

 

But administratively, you can break up your groups as makes sense for programming, while administering them together, providing multi-level leadership, etc.

 

In years past, our Pack/Troop met same time, different places, and no cross-overs for a few years. The Webelos dropped out as they were outgrowing Cub Scouts. This year, same place, different times (with some overlap). I've "borrowed" a Boy Scout for 10-15 minutes to teach Fire Safety, etc., to the Cubs... when that happens, the boys are SO focused and intent.

 

I'm hoping with the 2015 changes, we'll retire the dated Jungle Book Mythology, and focus Cub Scouts more on going back to being Junior Boy Scouts.

 

If everyone at a CO was in a single Unit, you could float your Webelos Den as a better transitionary program. They should do Webelos "getting ready" activities in Den Meetings, participate in Boy Scout Outings with a Webelos Patrol (with Den Leaders actively involved), and Pack meetings as leadership. They need guidance.

All this speculation based on what? Guesses? Until after a round of rechartering there is no measurable what of knowing what if any affect this new policy has or will have.

 

This discussion is nothing more than thread flaming.

 

Stosh

From what I remember when we discussed rechartering dates, I think though there were concils who rechartered on different months, the majority of councils recharter in December, for a charter that ran from Jan to Dec.. So most of the numbers are in, thanks to the speed of on-line rechartering.