mk9750

We are struggling with the same issues. We've had a couple of boys at the higher ranks (Star and Life) who could have been the subject of this conversation.

Our Scoutmaster has reserved for himself the right to be the sole signer for Scout Spirit. When issues like this come up, he verifies that a boy has had at least 4 or 6 months at his current rank. If he has, that one gets signed off. But if he has been AWOL, he has let his Troop and Patrol mates down. He also has either done a poor job prioritizing what is important to him, or he doesn't consider Scouting important. If it is the latter, and there was no explaination helping the SM understand the situation, he would not sign off on Scout Spirit. If the Scout had no good explaination, the SM would normally come to an agreement with the Scout that he must do A, B and C in order to demonstrate Scout Spirit, and when he does, to come see the SM again.

We've talked about this issue quite a bit in our Troop. We wish the wording was "Be active in your Troop and Patrol for a MINIMUM of 4 months (or 6 months). At least 1/2 this time should be immediately prior to the BOR" We believe (perhaps incorrectly) that the intent of the requirement is twofold: To provide time to complete the requiremetns to the best abilities of the Scout, and to encourage a sense of "team". Scouts who demonstrate teamwork and cooperation within the 4 month period and complete all of their other requirements should be able to advance in that time. If it takes longer for a Scout to exhibit such traits, then it should take longer to advance.

As has been discussed many, many times on these forums, this is one of those areas that the BSA seems to prefer an un-clear rule. This would not be hard to simplify. BSA could do so if they desired.

Mark

Well, I finally got it done! Beading ceremony is scheduled for 3/4/06!

I'm sure few will remember me, but I was a frequent poster until about a year ago, when bickering between a few folks turned me off. I have checked back occasionally though. And I have even keep in contact with hopscout when I can, as we have a friend in common.

I'm sure this won't make much of a difference to most of you, but I believe I promised to let everyone know when I finished.

If anyone else from C-28-04 reads this, congratualtions if you've finished, or get going if you haven't. One last push over the next five weeks will get you done on time!

... I used to be a Bear...

Mark

Hunt, I agree with you 100%%, and I'm sorry if my attempt at being succinct caused my message to be misunderstood.

I spent my hight school years in a Catholic seminary, where the old style catechism was still taught. I still remember word for word the definition of sorry: "A firm purpose of amendment". The example that was drilled into us was "you wish you hadn't done it, and will endeavor never to do it again".

If in the situation I was involved with, had the Scout been able to convince me he was sorry under the definition of sorrow I use, I could have voted to award the young man Eagle rank. To deny a Scout a rank regardless of his desire to ammend his behavior smacks of just plain unfair, and it is a standard to which I know I could not live, so I certainly couldn't ask a Scout to live to such a standard.

Given a significant amount of time to demonstrate his intentions, if the Scout succesfully convinced me he was sorry, not only would I vote yes, but I would celebrate the success. And in this case, I don't think I can imagine how it would matter what age the boy was. My point was that regardless of my views, BSA policies make no provision for a young man to make an error like this close to his 18th birthday, whereas if he were 16, he would have enough time to at least satisfy me that he was living the Oath and the Law.

Thanks for comments!

Mark

Wes,

I feel your pain!

I've been in almost exactly the same situation. A Scout transfered to our Troop a few months ahead of his 18th birthday. He worked his tail off to finish the last few MBs and his project, but just before his B.O.R., but after his birthday, we found out he had lied about why he transfered to us. Turns out he had been kicked out of his Troop for leaving camp (more than once) and bring both pot and wine back to the camp, where he shared it with some of his buddies.

The SM, the District Advancement Chair and I (Troop Adv. Chair) all believed that although a youthful mistake (or three) should not necesarily prevent a young man from earning Eagle, the dishonesty he displayed immediately preceeding his B.O.R. needed to be resolved before he should be approved by a B.O.R. The District Advancement Chair attempted to obtain a one year waiver to complete his B.O.R. right around his 19th birthday, with the hope he could develop evidence he had lived the Scout Oath and Law, particularly by staying Clean and Trustworthy. National denied the request, and with that, the B.O.R. felt they had to turn him down.

Despite this boy's transgression, I truly believe he is Eagle material. He made a couple mistakes that, had they been made at 16 instead of 17 years 8 months, he could have overcome and made Eagle. Because his timing was bad, he was out of luck. This has been one of the frustrations I have encountered in our great program. I've had to vote yes for three different boys at Eagle Boards of Review, even though I just didn't have the warm and fuzzies. The one guy I was forced to vote no for deserved the rank quite a bit more.

Best of luck to you and your Scout. And if I were to offer you any advice, one thing you might want to keep front and center as you go through this is the impression whatever you do will have on the rest of the Scouts in your Troop.

Mark

CA,

Congratulations! You have the opportunity now to experience some fantastic things about people and the Scouting Program.

"Mike" joined our Troop right along with his Den buddies when he was 12. His arrival caused quite a bit of consternation among our leaders too, as we knew almost nothing about the affliction, and even less about how to deal with a Down Syndrome boy.

"Mike" was unbelievably enthusiatic about Scouting, although his parents were quick to advise us about the parts of the program they felt were too difficult for him to handle. But "Mike" (along with his dad) went to most of our campouts. He earned First Class with absolutely no slack being given to him (although we were very quick to add the instruction for him that his only responsiblility when first aid was needed was to get help). He went to 3 summer camps on his 6 years with the Troop, and earned Swimming, Indian Lore, Basketry, and I think Leatherwork MBs, again, with no accomodation to make it easier for him.

One of my favorite memories in Scouting is the time at his second summer camp when his dad wandered over to find out if he was doing OK with the other guys at their own camp fire, and the dad found "Mike" hamming it up as a part of a skit they were doing, and he turned to his dad and said "Dad, you can leave me alone! I'm having fun!" It was the first time his mom or dad had ever felt as though "Mike" could handle himself. Dad was crying when he got back to the adults area of the camp.

"Mike" was (and still is - he still comes to our meetings, at 19) a source of pride for the boys in our Troop. It's unfortunate, but I guess expected, that new boys coming into the Troop would see "Mike" and find an easy target to pick on. The first time it happened, it lasted for like 8 seconds. If any of the older boys heard it, they would put a stop to it immediately. "Mike" was their buddy, and no one was going to make "Mike" feel bad. At least twice I saw an older Scout ask the Troop Guide responsible for the New Scout Patrol if he could have some time to talk to the new Scouts after an incident like this. He would introduce "Mike" to the new guys, explain that "Mike" was an important part of our Troop, and that if they wanted to be a part of our Troop, that "Mike" was going to be a friend to them, too. Once the new guys got to know "Mike" this was never an issue again until the next group of new guys came in.

I'm telling the truth when I say that I am convinced that no one in our Troop enjoyed his Scouting adventure more than "Mike" did. And we enjoyed having him in the Troop. When my son graduated from high school, we invited everyone in the Troop to the party. I'd say about half the families came. When "Mike" graduated, every family but one who was on vacation went to the party.

I guess there's not much hard advice for you here, but I hope you get my point. It's understandable that you might be apprehensive about the unknown. But if our experience represents the norm, six or seven years from now, you and your Scouts will be very appreciative of the opportunity you got by sharing Scouting with this young man. I know I am.

Mark

This is such a sad situation.

We had a boy in our Troop with very similiar circumstances. To try to make a long story short, at about 17, he left a campout with two other Scouts and brought back wine and pot and enticed a younger Scout to try the pot. He belonged to a different Troop at the time. The legal system did it's thing, including time at a boot camp type insitution. The Troop kicked all three boys out. This one remained out of Scouting until about 3 1/2 months before turning 18, when he approached our Troop looking to transfer. We never were comfortable with his or his father's reason for wanting to transfer, but took him in. He completed three or four of the tougher MBs while with our Troop, and did a mediocre but acceptable Eagle Project.

When it came time for him to turn in his application and solicit recomendations, his old SM heard that he was on the verge of making Eagle Scout and requested a meeting with our SM, where he told us about the boy's history. We involved the DAC and even the Scout Executive, who all determined that it should be the EBoR that should decide. I had to excuse myself from the board, as I already had my mind made up and was certqain I could not be open minded. We recruited adults from his church and some teachers to serve on the board, gave them all of the facts, and they said no.

It's important to understand the reasoning. Everyone on the board, our SM, the DAC, and I all felt that any youth needs the opportunity to make ammends for mistakes they make. Had this boy come to our Troop, told his story, described how he has fixed himself, and demonstrated he had behaved himself for the last few months, EACH AND EVERY ONE OF US WOULD HAVE BEEN THRILLED TO VOTE YES AT HIS EBoR. Instead, this boy was given plenty of opportunities to explain why he transfered, to tell the truth, and to demonstrate Scout Spirit by being Trustworthy, and by owning up to his mistakes. He failed each and every time he was given the chance, until he was face to face with his old SM, who pretty much embarassed him into telling the truth.

My point here is that young people make mistakes, and as much as we wish it weren't true, Boy Scouts are not immune. Given the right guidance, and enough time before he turns 18, a Scout certainly should be permitted to rehabilitate his standing. If he does, then he should not only be allowed to earn Eagle, it whould be celebrated. If he decides that he wants to wear an Eagle badge rather than BEING and Eagle Scout, then we should do our best to prevent it.

In any case, these are hard positions to take. As EagleDad said to me when I discussed this with him last fall, the best we can do is to make sure that the young man becomes a better person for the experience, whether that includes earning the rank or not. But I understand your pain while dealing with this. IT was the hardest thing I had to go through in Scouting.

Mark

I've been refraining from posting in recent months for two very basic reasons: First, I began to fell as if my input was getting less and less valuable (What used to be a strong Troop with which I am associated has been struggling recently), and second, I tired of the bickering. But I still monitor some of the threads, and this one has brought me back, at least temporarily.

When I first started working as the Advancement Chair for my Troop, I was probably very close to what Bob criticizes most here - I knew of First Class Emphasis (and I did confuse it with FCFY), but did not understand it. In addition, our SM is a man of very strong personality, and he had already established a system that basically had almost all Scouts staying in the program, and taking 1 1/2 - 3 1/2 years to get to First Class. Almost every boy who joined the Troop stayed until he was 18, and almost 100% of those who stayed made Eagle.

As I learned more about the program, including much of my information from here, and especially Bob, And as I began to be able to influence our SM more, I have been able to "train" him. He no longer teaches and tests Merit Badges based on what HE thinks boys should know. There is no longer an artificial timeline for a boy's advancement. He rarely reverts back to his style of Boy run, which is to present two possiblities to the SPL in a manner that syas "well, you can do it THAT way, and be (or look, or act) really stupid, or, you could do it my (the right) way".

I've been very proud of the transformation I have been able to engineer in our Scoutmaster. 10 years ago, we had a program that retained 80% of the boys who crossed, and over 80% of those made Eagle. We were the talk of the Council. Everyone said if you want to see how to run a Troop, look at Troop XX. They're great!" Now, since my efforts at transforming the SM to look more like the Boy Scout Program, let's see where we are now.

At our zenith, we had 48 boys and a discussion about whether we should cap membership. Now, with our 7 new boys fresh from Cub Scouts, we have 19 boys. In the last 4 years, about 35% of the guys who cross have stayed with the Troop. For the first time in the ten years I've been with the Troop, 2004 brought zero Eagle Scouts, but 6 guys who aged out and didn't really care if they made Eagle or not. Parents are complaining that their little Joeys and Johnnys are being pushed to complete stuff just because it's on the schedule.

Our PLC is given some very basic expectations when they prepare the annual plan. One of them to to assure that the program includes the opportunity to learn and practice all of the Scout skill rank requirments during the yearly program. And frankly, they do a wonderful job. About half of our new Scouts do earn First Class between crossing in about May, and the summer camp the NEXT year (about 15 months). The rest don't attend enough meetings and events to get the opportunity, and don't have the motivation to pursue the requirement on their own.

By now, I'm sure everyone is figuring that I blame FCFY (or more accurately, FCE) for our downward spiral. Well, it might suprise you to hear I am not. there are a number of things that have contributed to our problems: A cyclic downturn in the quality of the 4 Pack programs that feed our Troop; A unusual rash of disconnected parents; a group of middle to older guys, including my youngest (16) son who all seem to thing they've gotten what they needed out of the program, and that we have been unable to convince that the last part of what they should get out of Scouting is giving back what they've learned; and a Scoutmast, and ASM, and an Advancement Chair who have impressed the Council and District enough in the past that we are now being asked to do so many things outside our Troop that we have allowed ourselves to get pulled away from our real responsiblity and passion - our own guys.

So why did I write this? I hope everyone sees that for at leat one Troop, FCFY and FCE DID NOT have the effect that the BSA intended. On the other hand, I don't think it is to blame, either.

It is a sorry person who identifies a problem without offering a solution. So here is mine, offered humbly, as I'm not so sure my Troop's recent history affords me the stature necesary to make bold proclaimations:

The universe for any one particular Troop is made of of a collection of components unlike any other Troop in the country. You have motivated boys, he doesn't. Her Troop likes camping and nature, mine would rather do high venture. His Troop feels that a thorough knowledge of a requirement is vital to a Scout's enjoymnet of the program, the other guy thinks that we should just hand badges to every boy. None are right - for everybody - and none are completely wrong. The BSA gives us this prize, the BSA program, and asks us to use it to make good people out of as many boys as we can influence.Well meaning adults develop "best practices" that might tinker with the tried and true and improve upon them. Don't crucify someone when they do something that works. And don't try to change them. Don't be like me. don't stumble into a good thing and try to force it to be what someone else says it should be. Good people, with the right motives, can and are doing unbelievable good with our youth. If you are one of them, thank you. If you are one who can only find fault, shame on you. Shame on me. I meddled in a good thing, and good young men have suffered for it.

I don't know how long it may be before my next post, but thanks for reading this one.

Mark

My oldest son asked us about this when he was 10. I remember my wife with tears in her eyes as we drove down the freeway and I explained it almost exactly as eisley has.

My youngest son is almost 16 now. He STILL has yet to ask about Santa or admit he thinks anything other than Santa is a real person. It's quite humorous actually. Our entire family walks and talks as if this big secret has yet to be unveiled, even though we all know it is just a rouse because my son has never OFFICIALLY asked if Santa was real.

Although it's never been discussed by any of us, I think that this is the holiday tradition that has developed in our family.

Merry Christmas!

Mark

John D,

I have to respectfully but vehemently disagree with part of your premise.

First, I agree that Bob's style made it difficult for some to see his intent. I have said publicly before, and privately to Bob, that his written style causes him to come off as very arrogant. Sometimes it became so arrogant that some folks here, even some who otherwise are level - headed, wanted to take Bob behind the woodshed. Bob would do well, in my opinion, to work hard at sounding more benevolent should he begin posting again, which I hope he does.

Second, no one can know what truly is in Bob's heart and mind except Bob. So I will admit that I am doing nothing more than you by assuming I can see inside him. But I am convinced, despite his difficulty articulating it well, that Bob's intentions were admirable. I sincerely doubt Bob got anything from the time he spent on this forum. I don't believe he really got enjoyment from the controversies in which he became involved. And it should have been obvious to all of us that he is adamant that the only way to run a program is the Scout way, so he learned very little from any of us. So why does someone like Bob spend so much time (I seem to remember seeing he was at like 3500 posts a while back. I think I spend too much time on here and I'm less than a third of that!)? I honestly believe it is from an obligation Bob feels to "spread the good news of Scouting" (it is not my intent to offend anyone with that line). I truly feel Bob's intentions are magnamamous, and I think he derserves credit for that.

As I said, I can no more know what is in Bob's heart than anyone else. but I am convinced, despite his sometimes offensive writing style, he is a good man, and a good Scouter, at heart.

To all, I wish everyone a very Merry and Blessed Christmas, as well as a joyous holiday season. You all have truly become virtual friends, and a cherish the relationships I have with each of you. May the new year find you all in good health and increasing happiness.

Mark

OGE,

I love the idea. I think a voluntary effort to meet a certain standard that a Troop could use as a badge of honor is great.

I think you suffer from the same malady I do. I often get good ideas, and then bog them down with so much detail they break under the weight of all the elements. Eamonn pointed out an example of the same problem. Someone takes a good idea, makes it so hard to implement and / or administer, and it fails. It is the reason I quite often get tagged with the label of someone who "has great ideas that never work".

I think scaling back the criteria would give it a better chance of success. And I'd start with taking out anything that is subjective. Are there PLC agendas and minutes? You pass that question. No evaluation of the quality of them. Do your Boards of review last between 10 and 20 minutes? You pass. Set up the measurements to be evaluated like that, and you start acheiving the goals kind of by accident. A BOR would have a hard time retesting a Scout if the time allotted is short. And just like the ISO refernece, the hope would be that if you are doing things right, the "Quality" of the unit will be the result.

I have one other comment. Your purpose for presenting the idea is admirable. It seems to me you want to help find a way to encourage units to do it right. In that light, why is it so easy to dismiss asking Unit Commissioners to do it right? You mention that UC's don't and haven't done this for a long time. Is it likely that a certification system might work with UC's, too? Let's face it. If UC's did their job properly, many of the problems you point out can be taken care of, and done "within the program". I know this is tough. Our Troop has had four UC's in the 10 years I've been involved. The first three were either worthless or ghosts. The new one still hasn't been heard from since his appointment in August. Still holding out hope, but...

I've reread this post a couple of times and can't shake the feeling it is rambing, but I don't know how to improve it. Sorry if it doesn't make much sense.

Mark

The other day, the mother of one of the Scouts in my son's Cub Scout Den was over our house. I was going to be picking her son up from Penn State, and, along with my son, we were going to the Army Navy game in Philadelphia. She was over to drop off a sleeping bag, and some other stuff for the trip.

She, my wife and I were chatting in the living room when a song came on the radio that the mom (Karen) had to comment about. "You know, every time I hear this song, I think of you" (talking to me). "A couple of months ago, I asked Kevin (her son from Penn State) to burn me a copy of the CD that this song is on. He told me he absolutely would not do that, because Mr. (MK9750) had finally gotten him to understand that breaking copyright laws was stealing. He told me if I wanted this song, I'd have to go out and pay the person who created it."

It might be a small issue to some, but copyright laws are a big deal to me. I beleive strongly that if I invented something with the intention to make a profit, and someone were able to copy it and give it to someone else who otherwise would purchase it, that is wrong. For years, every time this issue came up among my son and his friends, I'd make this point. Except for my son, who was never permitted to have a CD burner, I never thought I'd made my point. I guess I was wrong.

I have to say, I am truly shocked that ANYTHING I tried to teach kids would have stuck. They've had so many better mentors in thei lives, Scouting and otherwise, than me. But this one was cool.

10.

Mark

My approach would be exactly like EagleinKY. I am not perfect, and I tend to prove that every time I open my mouth. At gatherings such as Courts of Honor and such, where recognitions are often handled, I prefer to speak from the cuff rather than read a speech. Doing so leaves me at the mercy of a failing memory, and I tend to do things like list the 22 people who helped with a project, but forget the project leader. When I do, and someone points it out to me. I try to make a beeline straight for the person I neglected and speak to them directly, and I try to find a way to fix it, either right there, or at least, at the next gathering.

Honesty is the best policy. Could it be why Trustworthy is first?

Good luck. I'm sure that no one intended to slight a hard working person. Make it right as best you can, and don't let it get to you.

Mark

KS,

My son's best friend (He's a good friend of mine now too) is a Cadet at West Point. In a year and a half, I've already come to understand that what happens to one of you happens to all of you. So directly to you, and every person selfless enough to do what you do, my sympathy.

I will certainly keep him and his family in my prayers.

Mark

In our Troop, the Troop Guide acts as the head cook at the new Scout campout for snack Friday night, and Breakfast Saturday morning. For lunch, each buy makes a foil pack. For dinner, they all act as assistants to the Troop Guide.

After their first campout, duty rosters are developed by the Patrol Leader for each campout with the input of his Patrol members. The Scout who wants to cook next is the next head cook, and someone is assigned (or volunteers) as his asistant. They cooks for the entire weekend.

For the next campout, the Patrol Leader develops a new duty roster. Usually, the asst. cook last month becomes the head cook this month. Within a year or 14 months, every boy will have had the chance to fulfill the requirement. The only ones who don't are the ones who don't volunteer. That doesn't happen too often, as most of the other duty roster chores: Fire, water, K.P., latrine, are far less attractive.

Mark

A son who dragged his feet to Eagle until almost 18.

Another son who is doing the same.

Pretending to be a Committee Chair because the real CC won't run a meeting or deal with people.

Beuracratic B.S. at the Council office.

A Scout who is more likely to appeal to national concerning his Eagle application than not.

Being 13 - 18 hours over my "one hour a week"

Struggling to get people to cooperate on a timely basis for my ticket.

A wife who can't understand why I do this.

I'd give it a 4.

_______________________________________________

Having made better friends with about 15 young men during the last 10 years than I made with any of my buddies as a teenager.

Being as proud at an Eagle COH as the the parents of the new Eagle Scout.

Watching my sons learn how to run a meeting.

Seeing a Downs Syndrome Scout tell his dad " go back to your tent, dad, I'm having fun!"

Watching my WEBELOs Den march out of the room behind their new SPL.

Having reason to think that some small scintilla of my effort made a difference.

Make it a 12.

Mark

I can think of a number of ways I'd consider handling this:

1) In our Troop, we have PLENTY of parents available to drive. There's no way this guy would be permitted to drive any boy other than his own son.

2) If the committee determined, for some reason, that this person driving was necesary, the permission slip for the boys who could potentially end up in his car (the "friends of the family") would have an extra note indicating they understand their son was going to be driven by a driver with a record of speeding. I suspect that parental instinct would take it from there.

3) I was very surprised my next method was not mentioned by either KoreaScouter or EagleDad, who both have used this reasoning before. I'd relate it to the Scout Law. What part of the Scout Law does the behavior either support or violate? We all accept an obligation to show Scout Spirit in our every day lives, and when we fail, to try harder the next time. Acting as if an adult has license to break the law consistently (civil or Scout), and being permitted to mentor our sons should be incongruent with our policies.

Mark

ps - Welcome to the forums, SemperParatus!

As a Personal Management MBC, here's how I've hadled this question.

In the old requirments, with which I am more familiar at this point, requirment 3 gave Scouts the option to prepare a personal budget for three months -or- prepare a list of the costs associated with living on ones own. Both are valuable requirments, and frankly, I'd applaud if the MB required both. But they were an either / or proposition, and I feel so strongly that learning how to plan a budget is an important life skill, I would emphasis this requirement as I was speaking with the Scout the first time. My spiel would go something like: "Requirment #3 asks for you to prepare a budget. What do you understand a budget to be? Good. Yes, it's a plan, and then the recording you will do is just the scorekeeping. Now, do you understand yet what the differences between fixed and variable expenses are? OK, well, when you read the pamphlet, you'll understand better, but here's a basic description... Now, in which catagory would "pay yourself first" belong? Yes, that's right. In order to make sure you're on the right track, make sure you show me your budget before you get too far into the record keeping".

I hope by this method, the Scout gets a good understanding of the reason he is asked to do a budget, and hopefully, recognizes that I feel it's an important life skill to practice.

Now, if he come back to me next week with his list of expenses for living on his own written out, and if they are acceptable, we'd discuss those, and I'd sign him off. He completed the requirement. I'd never make him do the one I think he should. But I've never had any of the over 25 Scouts I've counseled on this badge do that. They all plan a budget. And every single one has thanked me for opening their eyes to the value of this.

Once again, a 600 word post when probably 300 would have sufficed. But I hope it helps.

Mark

At recharter time, we collect the following from each Scout:

Registration fee

Boys Life (optional)

$20.00 activity fee

Adults pay only the registration fee.

The $20.00 activity fee is intended to cover awards, program supplies, and incidentals.

Events are run to break even. If a Patrol budgets $15.00 per Scout for a campout, we collect $15.00 from each attendee and disburse needed funds to the quartermaster and / or Patrol Cook for the event. If a large amount is needed, like to go to Tinnerman or such, the Patrol is responsible for developing a plan to pay for it (asking mom and dad is not an acceptable plan!)

We cover major expenses like new tents and such

by three established fundraisers every year: Spring clean up, where the Patrols form teams and rent themselves and their dads and moms to do brush clean up, rake leaves, etc., A car wash in the summer, and popcorn sales in the fall. For each of these, 1/2 the proceeds go into Scout accounts.

I was surprised to see figures of $50.00 and $100.00. Am I right to figure that this is because the Troop doesn't buy into fundraiser?

Mark

This is the first chance I've had to look at this thread. I was hoping someone had made the point I want to make, but alas, no one did (although KoreaScouter came close!), so, you've got to put up with me saying it.

As have been pointed out before, these are Positions of Responsiblity, not leadership. Some POR entail leadership, some do not, and some do at some times and not others. I'd be willing to wager that in most Troops, the breakdown of who holds certain positions is similiar to ours. In our Troop, positions like Librarian, Historian and Chaplain aide generally are filled by younger Scouts. this is their time the realize that they have been asked to be responsible to others in their Patrol or Troop. Of course, they usually have been responsible for others when they have been assigned to cook for a Patrol, or take some of the Troop gear home to clean and return "like new". But it is their first POR assignment in which they really recognize "Hey, I need to do something for others".

In most cases, dillegent young Scouts have grand ideas of how they can do the job well. In most cases, they never really meet their own expectations. But this is all right, and for two reasons: 1) They're young Scouts, and meeting expectations for these positions rarely affect their advancement. By the time they are ready for a Star BOR, they usually will have had a P/L position, or something more significant. and 2), this is the building blocks that allow them to improve the next time.

In our Troop, no young Scout has ever been told his job was unnacceptable. Rather, he always gets congratulated at Courts of Honor, he gets complimented when he has done something positive, and he gets advise on how he might do things better. But he leaves these kinds of positions with only his own impression of expecations un-met. In almost every case, his next position has him applying the good and bad that he experienced in his last job to the new one. In his new job, the level of expectations rise. If he's the Patrol Scribe or Patrol QM, he knows there is more need to be responsible. After that, he may become P/L, where he uses prior experiences to grow more. Ultimately, he may be an SPL or Troop QM, or a Den Chief or Troop Guide, where he knows that any inadequacies really matter.

In my opinion, if you have Scouts eligible for higher ranks, they should be being considered for higher positions of responsiblity. New and younger Scouts should be cutting their teeth on what we (the adults in our Troop) call the "practice jobs".

A quick note on whether anyone can be a leader: Everyone is a leader. EVERYONE. Some are effective, some are not. Some lead toward good, some the other way. Some try hard, some do not. So the question, I think, is not "can everyone become a leader?" is a slight bit askew. I think the better question is "Can everyone be an effective leader?" Framed as such, I say the answer is no. But, as Bob says (and on this I agree 1000%), every boy is entitled to the chance to learn.

Mark

Be Prepared,

In our Troop, this isn't likely to be a problem, although I can see how it might be in other Troops. We have a large number of very politically active teenagers, and the reference will be understood in our group. But yes, I think this might be one question that could go astray in some settings.

Dan,

Great point. Maybe I'd ask for the opposite of "wrong" to avoid that problem. On the other hand, "Right ~ Left ~ Ambidextrous" could still work. How about the other? "Write ~ Draw ~ Compute?"

Thanks much for the feedback!

Mark

I'm flattered that anyone would want to borrow it. Absolutely, feel free. Thanks fopr your very kind words.

Mark

I've been working on this one on my own, and wanted to run it by some folks before I tried it in public.

As we circle up, the SM asks "What is the opposite of black?"

Any scout answers "White".

SM: "And what is in between black and white?"

Any Scout: "Gray".

SM: "And what is the opposite of Liberal?"

A.S.: "Conservative."

SM: "And in between Liberal and Conservative?"

A.S.: "Moderate."

SM: "How about the opposite of Hot?"

A.S.: "Cold."

SM: "And in the middle of Hot and Cold?"

A.S.: "Warm."

SM: "So, as you can see, nature and humanity has created a compromise for many common things in our lives. Now, one more try. What is the opposite of Right?"

A.S.: "Wrong."

SM: "And what is the word that describes a compromise between Right and Wrong?"

After a few minutes of either no answer of awkward guesses, the SM can finish with something like: "There is nothing in between right and wrong. We've never created a word for that. There are shades of gray. There is too hot and too cold, and we have warm to satisfy the need to avoid the extremes. But there is only right and wrong. There is no middle. Do what is right, because not doing what is right by definition means you are doing wrong. Goodnight Scouts!"

Let me know if these needs further polishing.

Thanks!

Mark

Eisely,

That sounds like a great idea to me! If I can figure out how to create a seperate space to do this, I might try to incororate the idea into our program.

I think your last comment is really valid. I get people asking me questions all the time, and I'm sure my answer comes off with a tone like "Come on! Doesn't everyone know that?". I don't mean to, but I know it happens, and I heard others do it too. Maybe an effort to provide info to those who are interested might be received well.

Thanks for the great idea.

Mark

How's this for a coincidence?

The Greater Western Reserve Council in North eastern Ohio just recently sold their Camp Chickagami. When I saw the thread title, I thought someone had mispelled our camp's name.

I don't know all the details for sure, so for anyone who is using this as correct information, confirm before you react. But as I understand, a local park district bought it. It will take a few years for it to be paid, and, until then, the Council has first rights to use it. After that, the Scouts will be able to use it, but on a first come first serve basis. The big problem is that there are, I think I heard, 18 structures on the property. All but a couple have been condemned, and there is an agressive plan to tear these down.

We are lucky to have two other Scout camps. But, as you can imagine, there is a lot of concern about this in our Council.

Good luck to your Scouts as they find less camping area availablilty. This is sad. I've said this consistently for 15 years now, but it's too bad the BSA has to be run like a business, but it does.

Mark

Eamonn,

I typed, erased, retyped, then erased again a response along the same line as yours. None of mine were as close to saying what I wanted to say as was yours.

I too agree that Bob is practically always right. sometimes, I don't like his answers - Sometimes I wish his answer was wrong, because it isn't what I want to hear. But he's almost always right. Always being right leads all but the most humble of people to being arrogant sometimes. I don't know if Bob is really arrogant or not. I don't know him personally. But often the tone that comes through in his typed word seems arrogant. I should only speak for myself, but I have been offended occasionally. It hasn't kept me from hearing the message, because I think I know from where Bob comes. I've asked Bob on more than one occasion to consider how his tone will be received as he types. I am doing so again, because I think Bob is one of the best resources on these forums. I have missed him when he has retreated, and hope he does not retreat again.

I find Barry, without a doubt, the most refreshing addition this board has seen, and I have corresponded with him directly telling him that. I wish Barry would post more. I get so much out of his posts. Both tangible and intangible. I have helped apply ideas Barry has discussed here to my Troop with tremendous success, and it is uncanny how when I am most down about Scouting because something isn't quite right, I've stumbled on one of Barry's posts and had my spririts lifted.

If I may, I'd like to dscribe how I see the differences between the two. In most every aspect of our lifes, there are two methods: Art and Science. In the manufacturing business for which I work, this is very true. We have some processes that are very technical and scientific. We use Statistical Process Control to assure that the process continues to make good parts. We use scientific methods to solve problems. Everything is run according to control plans and procedures. And we make the best damn parts of their kind anywhere in the world (you can't call this a commercial if I don't name the product, so there!). this is Science.

We have two products that just cannot be produced "scientifically". We have skilled craftsman that have developed techniques after decades of practice. They make things that are truly amazing. No SPC controlled process could ever duplicate the parts these guys make. It is truly artistic. And again, they are the best in the world. Art in manufacturing.

Bob the Scientist. Barry the Artist. I love 'em both. We need them both. Bob, you should try to be more sensitive to how your words will be received. Barry, you should try to be more thicked skinned. But I hope you both keep doing what you've always done.

Mark