mk9750

I just heard last night at a committee meeting that our District is the test District in the Council for on line rechartering. Our CC feels overwhelmed by this and asked me to help her out. We have to send e mail to her son if we want her to see it! But I guess I'll be getting into this myself.

Because I haven't studied it at all, I can only guess, but I'm betting they handle signatures for rechartering the same as our Council handles signatures on advancements, which we can do on line from Troopmaster. We still need to send in a hard copy with signatures.

I'm all for these kinds of changes. Keep em' coming!

Mark

Last night I was conducting a Board of Review for Life with a 15 year old Scout. As we were starting the review, I asked what Point in the Scout Law has the most meaning to him at 15. He answered Trustworthy. As the Board and the Scout began discussing issues around Trustworthy, I made a comment something like, "for instance, if a 15 year old Scout knew he had cheated on a test at school, he probably wouldn't even be requesting a Board of Review". I pulled the comment out of thin air, and I could have said anything instead of using the example of cheating.

But with a few gulps and some sweaty palms, the Scout asked if we could postpone the review for a while. I asked if he was feeling well, and he said he was fine, but it seemed obvious I hit a raw nerve.

I can't tell you how impressed I am that a boy who may have cheated on a test 3 months ago (schools' not quite back in session here, so if he did, it was last school year), but then recognize the conflict that causes and decide to fix the problem instead of continue. If one of the goals of Scouting is to develop young men of high character, it's great to see we're on the right track with at least one boy.

Sorry to spend your time on something that may be of interest only to me. But it's another one of those little things that has me so jacked up about BSA.

BTW, I am off to the first of two weekends of Woodbadge on Friday morning. Wish me luck!

Mark

Thanks for the responses so far, including the one that came via private message.

You are all right, of course. Intellectually, I know the right course of action is to guide and allow him to succeed or fail on his own. We all (as adult leaders in our Troop) generally do a good job with this. It is easier with some Scouts than with others, but we generally do a good job of training them and then letting them lead. This is a bit of a different situation because of the "unelected" status of his position. It is important that he step up and do his best. He isn't so far, and other Scouts have suffered so far (monthly campout cancelled, next one in danger of being cancelled).

I may have not communicated clearly, but I am supporting the SM's work with my son as he is trained to lead a Troop, not the other way around (at least that's the way I see it. It might be interesting to have an outside party look in and give us an opinion on that one!). Communication between the SM and my son tends to be somewhat one sided, with the SM trying to explain what needs done, and my son not being very responsive. I try to reinforce what the SM is saying.

What is weird about this is that more than most kids I've encountered (certainly more than his older brother was), this son is dillegent at most everything he undertakes. Most people tend to feel very comfortable giving him things to do and are very satisfied with the results. It's just this one aspect of Scouting that he seems to be shrugging off and not putting forth the same effort.

Dad knows that dad backing off would help arrive at the desired results. Dad is having a tough time allowing less than his son's best effort, because it it so out of character for son. I recognize that's as much MY problem as my son's, and I am trying. But using the opportunity I have to work more directly and specifically with one youth leader in this case is too hard for me to pass up.

Thanks for the responses. I look forward to more.

Mark

Let me run this one by this esteemed group:

My 15 year old Life Scout ASPL son has gotten to the point where most teens get at one point or another. He knows everything (if you don't believe me, just ask him!), and I know nothing (and he can prove it!). But the odd part is that it only seems to affect Scouting. If we're doing a project around the house, he'll listen to my morsels of wisdom. But if I suggest he should being working on planning this, or making phone calls for that, or dealing with an issue by considering these three options, etc., he looks at me like I have three heads (I actually had two removed when I was 20, and neither has grown back yet, 'far as I can tell!).

I've used many of the skills I have in order to lead him toward doing the right thing (or anything at all some times), and it just isn't working. Our Scoutmaster has been trying too, with almost as abysmal results.

Here's the problem. The SPL's family is in the process of moving to another nearby town. He plans to stay with the Troop, but it's become pretty obvious he's "checked out" and is coasting during his last 6 weeks in office. So the burden of most of the work is now squarely on my son's shoulders. Disappointingly to me, My son resents having all of the responsiblity thrown at him. He wants to be elected SPL, so I figured that could be the hook to get my son to do a great job. It just isn't happening. Anyone have sucess dealing with this with their own son? I think I could be far more sucessful if it were someone else's son I was dealing with.

Mark

Fuzz,

This isn't a disagreement with you, as much as it is another prespective.

In our Troop, we participate in only one Council / District event each year - Klondike. And even at that, except for following the trail set up and participating in the stations, this is still "our" program. WE teach winter camping. WE teach skills to be used in the competetive events. WE cook our own meals instead of eating the mess hall meals.

We spend summer camp at a primitive Scout reserve in Canada every other year, where ALL of the program is whatever our guys develop. In alternate years, we spend summer camp in another Council. Except for the mess hall meals and merit badge oportunities, the "program" is what our boys develop. The other 10 months are filled with as many as 25 activities WE develop to make up our "program".

We do sell popcorn, and we do participate, and staff, training oportunities. But these I see as a support function for our program, not program done for us.

I see nothing wrong for those Troops who want or need to use Council services to maintain their program. Some very good Troops in our area do so, as do Troops who need such help because of where they are on the up and down cycle. But it isn't a requirment, in my mind, that a Troop MUST use the Council "program".

Mark

I read these messages for exactly this kind of discussion. And I hold many of the folks who have contributed to this one in VERY high regard. Thanks for participating, all!

One day about a year ago, frustrated with a couple of adults who couldn't keep from inserting themselves into the process of a PLC when it started getting bogged down and threatened to run late a few times (which would have caused the adults undue hardship by having to stay 15 minutes later instead of getting home to watch Will and Grace), I herded all the adults in the room away and aske them a question. "Close your eyes, and imagine your sons in their PLC without ANY adults in the room. Not me, not you, not the Scoutmaster, no one but Scouts. What do you think would be the outcome of such a meeting?"

The Scoutmaster picked up exactly what I was doing. The common thought was that chaos would reign, nothing would get done, and the youngest Patrol Leaders might be found hanging on the flag pole if there were no adults to supervise. We made them a deal. Next month, the SM, and all of the other adults would suddenly have developed a need to have an adult meeting, leaving the boys to run their own meeting by themselves. When the SM got the meeting minutes from the Scribe, we wold publish them to the adults. We'd let the parents decide for themselves which way the meeting was more productive.

Even the Scoutmaster was suprised. I think he felt he was vital to the process. Turns out, the Patrol leaders must have determined they were responsible to each other for the success of the meeting, and to the unsuing program in the next month and a half. And this seemed to motivate them. Things went famously!

We backslide a bit, and the adults get involved a little more every month, until someone makes the point again. And it's not always "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" when the boys are on their own. But my experience is that leaving boys to their own devices produces better results than doing otherwise.

Mark

I've always liked the idea of teaching Scouts sewing. I'd take it a step further, though. Why not include all of the "home ec" skills - Sewing, Cooking (indoors, because it is different), washing and ironing, cleaning, nutrition. We have these guys for 7 years. I've always thought it ashame that we don't take the oppurtunity to teach young men life skills they will need as older young men. Let's face it - A well run household will almost always require that a man do as much of the household chores as a woman does in these times. We aught to be taking the lead in this. I've even written national about this, without response.

As to the Lifesaving vs Emergency Preparedness, we've had 11 Eagles in my Troop since I got involved. The only boy who did not earn Lifesaving transfered from manother Troop with Emergency Preparedness. I'm with sctldr. Swimming needs to be mandatory unless a certain handicap exists, and I think Lifesaving should be in almost the same category.

Mark

I have spent the last 45 years trying to earn the right to be thoughtof as my Dad's son.

I have spent the last 19 trying to earn the honor of being remembered as my Sons' dad.

I hope someday to be successful at both.

Mark

We use a method similiar to Fuzzy. We have two activites each year we do to support our Charter Organization, for which youth leadership draws up a schedule that includes each boy and an adult member of his family. It's up to the family to find a replacement if they cannot help.

For all other needs, we ask that each family volunteer for at least one activity each year. Most do more than that, but we do have the ocassional parent who never seems to be involved. We've developed a small trick for handling this. At our Court of Honor, we ask all parents to stand up to be recongnized and thanked by their sons. When the round of applause is over, we run down the list of tasks and activities for the prior period, asking for those who helped with each activity to sit down with our thanks. When we've gone through everything, those that are standing almost always seem to find us at the social to see where they can help next time. The very few who don't we figure we're better off not seeing anyway.

Eamonn is right - If you need more fomal assistance at campouts, or in duties that the committee is responsible for covering, it is up to the committee to recruit and see to the training of these people. But they are all volunteers. Some arm twisting (or perhaps some type of reinforcement, positive or negetive) may be needed, but I think it's wrong to require this.

Mark

LPC,

First, great story!

Second, I couldn't have made your last point any better than you just did.

I'm with you. I think it's a tactical error for boys to allow themselves to be tattoed or pierced. I think it gives the wrong first impression, and, even though a poor first impression can be overcome (your example is great!), why does anyone want to put that kind of effort in, when they can just conform to the mainstream?

HOWEVER, neither tattoos or piercings are a big enough issue for me to make a problem for a boy over. For those in my sphere of influence, I attempt to explain (sometimes often) that there isn't enough value in such ornamentation to make it worth the hassle, but if I can't be successful convincing him, it's a dead issue. It's not my place to allow metal or ink displayed in what I consider a silly manner to effect how I treat a boy.

Mark

I caught that change through our Council newsletter. I had the thought at the time, but never followed up on it - "Who is supposed to police this?"

Will the council records cause an application to kick out, or is it up to the Troop to keep an application from being turned in? And if one is missed, how does it get corrected? And if not corrected, will it affect a boy at some point during his advancement process?

Pleas don't misconstrue. I think the low limit is a good one. But what is the net effect?

Mark

First, before I get to this:

Man, what happened around here? I was too busy to get to check the forums for a week, and the manure has hit the high velocity wind device.

We use a persmission slip for every outing. It serves a number of purposes:

-Commitment to go on campout

-Permission of parents

-Agreement by both parents and Scouts to act Scout like (Includes signatures)

-a place for youth leaders and Scout himself to evaluate activity, and the Scout's perticipation.

We collect permission slips and file by Scout, and refer to them in Scoutmaster conferences and BORs.

Mark

I can top Sgt. Schultz:

"I know nothing... and I can prove it!!!"

Mark

That's why I put "Trained" in quotation marks. Absolutely, their behavior is a product of what they were taught at home, and to a very large extent, what they have seen older boys who came before them do. But I am rather certain no one sat them down, individually, or in a group, and said "Now boys, you know that it might disturb someone else if you're too loud too late. So I don't want to tell you what to do, but you probably should consider keeping the noise down, and going to bed at a decent hour."

My point is that I believe most Scouts tend toward being considerate. I can't believe our guys are better than most anone else's. Give your guys a chance to behave, and way more often than not, they will. does it ever back fire? Heck yeah. See my thread on a Patrol of difficult Scouts for a prime example. But more often than not, we get the behavior we expect. The trick is to have the right expectations.

Mark

This is only one example, but I bet it's not THAT uncommon...

We have a Patrol of middle to older age guys who have sleep overs at each other's house every weekend that there isn't a campout. These guys are all great buddies, and they have a great time. They play some silly video game called Halo, and they stay up all night. They each bring money for pizza and pop, and they do a nice job of keeping the noise to a very low roar.

This same Patrol owns a screened gazebo they take on campouts in the summer time, and they tend to congregate in there after dinner, playing cards, chess, or just shooting the breeze. They never seem to be so loud as to bother anyone, and they go to bed when they choose to, and always by 11:00 or 11:30.

I don't believe anyone "Trained" them to keep it down, and go to bed at a reasonable hour, and I know no one "Makes" them do so. And they're used to staying up all night with each other in other settings.

My point is that perhaps if we just had the expectation that boys will do the right thing, boys will do the right thing.

Mark

Eamonn,

I agree with 99.75% of everything you said. Assuming you typed it correctly, did you really mean you develop 30 goals for each committee? That seems counterproductive, to me. Could you have meant three?

Other than that, I like you style, ole' chap!

Mark

I think I've told this before...

At the first summer camp I attended as an adult, we had a prank battle going on between a group of 15 year old Scouts and a couple of brand new Scouts. Everything was in great humor, nothing mean spirited. It was great fun to watch.

The young guys had the last laugh with their Friday night prank. After all were in the sack, they snuck out, and completely removed the tent from around the three 15 year olds. Must have never made a sound doing it, because the guys who WERE in the tent never heard a thing. They woke up to a bright, sunny Saturday morning, not understanding why there was so much light coming into the tent. It was absolutely hilarious, and I've got to tell you, I've not seen any group of new Scouts get accepted by older guys as quickly as these guys did.

Practical jokes can easily get out of hand, and you have to be on the lookout for signs that they're getting ready to go to far. But if they stay within bounds, they are a great way to have fun. I'll remember forever the look of pride on these new guys faces when they knew thay had won this little contest.

Mark

May I ask a question, perhaps of DSteele, if he's lurking?

How is a Scouter who is registered in multiple positions counted? If I were a Cub Master, a Troop Committee Member, a Merit Badge Counselor, and on the District Committee, would I be counted as one person, or four?

And, if the answer is four, could this be a reason behind the need for multiple applications?

Mark

What is the formal definition of a Scout having a good time at Summer Camp?

See Hop's post!

And what does it have in common with most every poster here who understands the program?

Hops mentioned exactly three specific adults: His mom who came out to have some fun, A Scoutmaster who offered to help Hops accomplish something, and Purcelce, who helped make the week more fun. Not one mention of rules, or adults making boys do what the adults wanted him to do. No mention of adults arranging for a flag ceremony, or fixing the flag pole. The Scouts did those things, as it appears from Hop's post.

And BP smiled...

Mark

To Bob and others:

Happy Father's Day to all of you!

To me, Father's Day is somewhat odd. We celebrate what has done the most to make ME happy, yet I get the gifts. Just doesn't seem right. I find myself spending much of Father's day thanking my wife and boys for allowing me to be a Dad.

I also want to send warm wishes out to all of those who, like me, can't give our father a hug and say thank you to them. I sure miss my Dad. I hope he's at least a little proud as he watches down on me.

Mark

Yeah Hops, you were told about the same as I've heard.

It's our SM who is the Climbing instructor (as a matter of fact, he is the Coucil Climbing Chair). He says that all safety equipment and rope must remain in the control of a certified instructor, who, as Be Prepared says, must log purchase date, usage, conditions, etc.

Our Troop works within these rules by having each person who wants personal gear to place one order through the SM, who maintains control of the gear while not in use. If a Scout were to leave the Troop, he would be permitted to take his gear with him after signing a note acknowledging that the Instructor no longer has responsiblity., or he may sell it back to the Troop at a pro rated amount.

For the record, the SM, as well as the other 4 certified instructors our Troop has, feel the rule is rediculous. But it is the rule, and they follow it religiously.

Hope you had a good time anyway!

Mark

Bob and FScouter,

I think both of you read something into EaglenKY's post that I didn't. It looks to me as though you think he said that the BOR would be made up of committee members from either the camp (that confuses me: I didn't know a camp had its own committee members), or from other Troops. It seemed to me that the post was saying his Troop's committee members. And if so, there shouldn't be any problem.

Frankly, campouts are my favorite place to do Boards of Review. I always seem to get deeper, more thoughtful answers in Scouting's most natural setting than sitting in a classroom.

I say if you can meet the requirements, have at it!!!

Mark

WcwDrumma,

Welcome to our group! I hope you find the answers you seek.

I have an observation based on the presentation you made. It could be off base, but here it is:

If you view the rank of Eagle as something you GOT more than something you ARE, I think that is very enlightening. If you pursued Eagle Scout as a prize, one to be used to show off to friends, relatives, and potential employers, that's all you really have. Once in a while, you'll find an employer who will see Eagle Scout on your application and be impressed enough to consider you further, or maybe even hire you.

If rather, your have BECOME and Eagle Scout; if you ARE Trustworthy, and Loyal, and Helpful, and every other thing that an Eagle Scout IS, then you may not even need to point out you have earned the award. It will be obvious by the things you have done, by the impressions you have made on previous employers or other references. It will show through as you interview. And, if your effort with a specific employer turns out to be unsucessful, then as an Eagle Scout it will be easy to accept that the world is tough and in order to be sucessful, one just has to keep on trying.

Sucess in most any endevour is far more attitude than it is anything else. If you ARE an Eagle Scout, rather than someone who HAS the Eagle award, you'll most often find yourself in better situations and enjoy better outcomes than those who are not.

My sincere wishes of good luck as you pursue your dreams.

Mark

Hops,

I think you've got a great start.

Although I believe that "intangible" projects can be just as good as ones that produce a finished product, they are harder, I think.

If you take the ideas that you have, each of them provides an oppurtunity for you to lead a small group toward completing a goal. As you put a few of these small projects together, your leadership should be quite apparent.

You may find that during your planning or your execution, you've bitten off more than you can chew. that's all right. Make the adjustments in your plan, and lead your supporters to accomplish the new objective.

Also, I'd encourage you to utilize resources familiar with the Eagle project as you plan. They can help you avoid some of the land mines that such an agressive project might reveal.

Knowing you, you'll do fine!

Mark

659,

I think you've done a fine job, and you probably went further than we would have to satisfy this mom.

We're dealing with a somewhat similiar situation right now. The mom of a new Scout doesn't want to let Johnny go to summer camp because he doesn't know how to swim, and she's petrified that he'll be permitted to swim unattended with no supervision. We've done it all - Showed her Guide to Safe Scouting, Safe Swim Defense, the BSA Lifegaurd credentials of the THREE Lifeguards we will provide, explaine dthat our first year program provides for hours of swimming instruction, yet she just is not going to be convinced that little Johnny will be safe. Of course, she is also very concerned that Boy Scouts takes up so much time during the summer, what with us continuing to meet every week, and 8 - 10 activities scheduled. "It just was much easier the way Cub Scouts did it, giving us the summers off".

Some how I think, as hard as we will try, this is one boy who may not make it until the fall Court of Honor. Seems we have about one of these a year.

Mark