mk9750

In our District, we start each year with a Chairman who was a Vice - Chair for the event the previous year. He and other core adults from his Troop are the lead people responsible for this year's event (be it Camporee, Klondike, Webelos Woods, etc.)

The FIRST responsiblity of the event chair, who works under the guidance of the District Program Chaiman, is to recruit a vice chair, who will run NEXT YEAR's event. This person serves very closely with the Chair, so that when it is his turn to run an event next year, very few surprises should come up.

The event chair works with what we call a District Finacial Liason, a VERY unofficial position supervised by the District Program Chair. This person has a long history of developing and monitoring event budgets, and he works with the event chair and vice chair to develop a budget for the event. Payment for supplies, etc., is requested from the Finacial Liason through the DE, who obtains a Purchase Order from the Council. Budgets are designed with contingency money, so that small overages do not put the event into the red. The Financial Liason, and to a lesser degree the DE, monitor performance to the budget to assure that not only does no event go in the red, but that every penny possible goes back to the participants as a value added service or give away.

In four years of doing events in this way, our District has accomplished a number of goals:

1) In increase of at least 10% participation for each

event (our Spring Camporee is up 300%).

2) Sound financial stewardship

3) A varied, interesting series of events with themes

developed by a multitude of volunteers

4) Reduction in the "good old boy" stranglehold that was

so prevelent in our district for so long

5) Complete elimination of "planning in the parking lot

on Friday night" that went along with having only

people who thought they know how to run an event and

their lack of planning.

6) A better working relationship between units in our

District

You are right that running an event like Klondike or Camporee is a tremendous undertaking. That is why we ask an event leader to practice one year before he takes the reigns the next. It has worked spectacularly in our District. And OGE points out a big benefit of them all - If you don't like it, help us run next year's! Plenty of Troops have decided to pitch in when they didn't like an event. Others backed off of complaining when the request was made.

But actually, I haven't even mentioned the biggest benefit. The system includes the event chair appointing a youth SPL from his Troop. This youth leader is responsible for coordinating the vast majority of the tasks - From parking lot logistics to cracker barrel to assuring that stations are youth run (when possible - obviously, the firing range must be run by adults). This youth leader is part of the planning process, and has input into a large amount of the planning. But once the event arrives, the youth SPL runs most of the event. Various adult event chairman have used youth leadership to varying degrees. And some youth have done amazing jobs, and one or two have failed miserably. But almost everyone has taken a far different view of youth leadership because of this system.

I wish you good luck as you develop the methods in your District to put together events that meet all of the goals we have in Scouting. Best wishes!

Mark

How is it that I can proof read a post three times before I hit the submit button, but when I actually see the post in the forum, I can find at least 2 more mistakes?

Mark

What a wonderfull article (even if it is long enough for ME to have written!).

As I read it, I made a mental list of people to whom I want to forward this. Unfortunately, I kept having to scratch people of my list because I might offend them. Maybe I am displaying the same friendship mistakes as the parenting mistakes the author discusses here.

I have no business judging other's parenting philosophies and skills, so apoligize in advance for doing so. But I can say almost without exception that the biggest "problem boys" we get in our Troop have parents that display most or all of the tendancies discussed. They are really nice people - It's hard to tell them they need to consider doing things differently. But when we had a new Scout and his mom show up, and the only questions she could ask was how much time this would take, as little Alex also had swim team, karate, viola, piano, Sylvan Learning Center, and at leat one more thing that I can't think of right now, I realized how off center we seem to have become. The Scout asked nothing - he seemed like he wanted to be anywhere but near his mom at the time. The boy won't be going to summer camp with us. Not because his family's vacation conflicts. Not even because mom thought it was dangerous (although we didn't get that far). Little Alex won't be going to summer camp because mom already has his summer planned out for him and the delicate balance of an hour of this and an hour and ahalf of that would be upset far too much.

OK, I've gone from commenting to venting. I'll stop. THANK YOU for a fantastic article!

Actually, I have one more example from a few years back. We had a mom who had to drive her son out to a campout on Saturday afternoon because the boy was taking the SAT test -AS A 7TH GRADER!!!! She said she was trying to get him to get a perfect score on the SAT by the time he applied for colleges. (turns out he never did better than mediocre, had only middle C grades, and will be going to a community college for two years to see if he can qualify to get into a more prestigeous institution later).

Sorry for the diversion.

Mark

Mollie,

Sorry to hear your son had a tough time with Personal Management based on adults. That is my favorite badge to work on with guys, especially if they take my advice and wait to do it until they are old enough to have a part time job. There is so much more to learn by budgeting a few hundred dollars a month -vs- a $5.00 per week allowance. The number of valuable things guys can learn with that merit badge is huge.

In one of the older Personal Mangagement pamphlets, there was a chart of two methods for saving. It demonstrated that if a person were to put aside $2,000.00 a year for ten years and then quit contributing, and just let the money grow, it would grow to far more than $2,000.00 a year from the time someone started at 34 and contributing until he turned 65. I get very theatrical with this chart. Props and everything, explaining how "Joe" graduated from college and wanted to live the playboy lifestyle, with a fancy downtown apartment, BMW Boxter, nice new threads, etc., but after finally getting married and settling down, he realizes he better start saving for the future, and how the Boxter gets sold for a Chevy, and the nice clothes get replaces with Dockers. Then I talk about Pete, whose dad convinced him to get into his new employer's retirement program on day one, and did so until he got married, had a child, and decided he just couldn't afford it. This guy had 20% more from his $20,000.00 total investment than Joe, who invested $80,000.00 over th course of his working life. Then I show Mike, who started on day one and continued contributing all the way through till 65, and how he had the Boxter, the nice clothes, the great vacation home, and almost twwice as much money as Joe and Pete combined. I swear to you, I've done this with probably 35 guys in the last ten years. All but three have been so pumped at the idea of saving, they get almost bug-eyed.

It is a shame that both Personal Management and Communications have dropped the requirment to write a resume. I offer to help guys with their resumes when I do Personal Managment. Because the story above was so long, I won't go into the phenominal job one of our guys landed out of college, who was told that it was his resume that caused them to decide to hire him almost sight unseen.

Communications has become my least favorite. Between some weak requirments and eliminating some of the most valuable, I'm not even sure this should be an Eagle Required badge any longer. Just my opinion.

Also, let me add that in contrast, Family Life has recently be improved with the addition of a discussion of what it means to be a father. This topic has led to a number of conversations with boys that really seem to have an effect on their role as future parents. In general, I look at most of the changes BSA makes to MB requirments with skeptisism. But adding that requirment was an excellent move.

Good luck and God bless anyone who undertakes Counseling boys on Merit Badges. It perhaps is the most effective way of utilizing the Adult Association method of Scouting. I have seen it do miraculous things, both with boys in our Troop, and specifically, my two sons. Thank you to all who serve.

Mark

I just had to share this incident with all of you. I thought it was very interesting.

Our older guys are beginning the preparations for their annual Appalacian Trail hike in the spring. Because this event is a great time to tackle some of the requirements for Hiking and Backpacking MBs, a number of our guys asked me for blue cards so they could begin working with one of our ASMs, who is a Counselor for those badges.

A week or two ago, I walked into the meeting to find three Scouts discussing various requirements with the ASM. It was one of those Rockwell moments, with the ASM standing and demonstrating something the guys would have to know to pass a requirement.

This past week, the crew had a first pack inspection scheduled. The boy who is leading the expedition is in charge of inspecting all of the packs and making suggestions as to what equipment might be missing or unnecesary, how to rearrange the pack for better accessablity, etc. This was one of the boys working on the MB. He looked over the ASM's pack, challenged him on a number of his items, and made some fine suggestions for improving his set up, including the need to add protective strapping to use to protect trees when he set up his new backpacking hammock while on the trail.

Just a week or two before, this boy was taking instruction from an "expert". Now, he has the responsiblity for making recomendations for improvement to the "expert", and the ASM was pleased to be reminded about the protection for his hammock.

My youngest son is 2 months from graduating out of the Troop. sometimes, I get the urge to chuck Scouting and start doing something for me. Then I see a scene like this play out, and I realize I can't leave.

To steal a line from one of my favorite posters (again!):

Man, I love this Scouting stuff!

Mark

This is less a confirmation or dispute of the points made so far as it is simply another point to consider:

Our Troop was at 11 boys when my oldest son joined with 10 other boys and doubled the size of the Troop. Over the last 12 years we have had as many as 48 boys in our Troop, and are now back down to 20.

Our experience has been that there is little change in the way a Troop works until it grows or shrinks by about 10 boys at the same time. Our Troop functioned the same with 26 boys as it did with 24. But in years we added 10 guys, the way the Troop functioned changed dramatically, in ways you guys already described and in other ways.

The most obvious change we saw was in how youth leadership training happened. Our method when we were small back 10 years ago or so was that leadership training was handled very informally between the Scoutmaster, the SPL and ASPL, and the Patrol Leaders, of which there were two. These effectivly were PLC meetings, but happened most every week, planning next week's and next month's activities "on the fly". Boys with Positions of Responsiblity were trained by their predecesors before the "exchange of control" took place.

Once we got over 30 guys, and had three Patrols, informal chats after meetings weren't as effective, and the SM's focus on training became more "official". We held leadership training weekends. One year (and I wish we would do this again, I thought it was very valuable), we did a full Saturday training for APLs, where we asked the two Webelos Dens who were planning on crossing to our Troop to be "Boys Scouts for a day" and let the APLs put into practice what they learned in a formal training session the night before. Actually, it was pretty cool. We simulated and entire weekend campout and a Troop meeting in one day. The APL's got practice leading a Patrol, and the Webelos got a head start on some of the basic skills we teach during their first two months.

At any rate, we had to adapt to new realities and adopt new strategies whenever we grew by 10 boys or so. As our Troop as contracted, we've found the same thing. Training is becoming more direct and hands on again. Although we still have PLC meetings, I notice more things are being decided by the guys simply by putting their heads together rather than running a full blown meeting all the time.

And neither situation was better or worse than the other, in my opinion. Both have had positive and negative aspects and outcomes. But my point is that as you are anticipate your Troop growing (or shrinking) significantly in a short period of time, we found it wise to begin expecting that significant aspects of our Troop would need to change, also. Being prepared for it makes it easier.

Best of luck to you!

Mark

May I try to address this issue from a slightly different angle?

One of the questions, followed by more than a couple answers, talked about switching Troops. Although that must remain an option, in my VERY humble opinion, it should be as a last resort.

We have now had 4 boys transfer into our Troop from other Troops. In three cases, the reason was that the other Troop didn't do anything fun or interesting. In the fourth, both the boy and his father could not see eye to eye with the Scoutmaster on numerous issues.

In our experience, limited to four examples, switching units has been a disaster for the boy. Now, we strongly believe we have a great program, and while trying to be humble, I think it is generally better than most Troops in our area. But each of these four boys left Scouting after transfering to our Troop, one in less than 6 months, and the longest lasted a bit over a year.

Why? We've never really been sure. Although our existing Scouts never treated the newcomer poorly, I'm sure there is some of the "insider / outsider" mentality. I believe that we are tougher regarding advancements than other Troops, and that could be hard to get used to. We do more high venture stuff, and the training for such takes more time spent outside Troop meetings than I believe most of the other Troops in our area spend. But whatever the reason, transfers have not faired well in our Troop.

This is so true, that we now have an unofficial policy regarding requests to transfer into our unit. When we receive an inquiry, we try to get our SM, our CC, and the parents together to determine what the real issues are. In most cases, we will then make contact with the SM of the other Troop, and attempt to get everyone to sit down and discuss the situation and how it could be remedied. We did this the last time we got a request. The boy wanted to get into rapelling, but his unit had no one trained to supervise an event, no gear, and not inclination to try. We sat down with the boy and his SM, offered to have our boys run a rapelling event to which we would invite his Troop, do a climbing instructor program for a couple of their adults (our SM was the Council Climbing Director. He has since passed the reigns to one of our ASMs). When we became convinced that the Troop truly did not want to put that much effort into a climbing and rapelling program, we invited the boy to participate with us while remaining in his own Troop. He's been on two or three events with us since then (over about a year). He is flourishing in our climbing program, but, more importantly, he is flourishing in his own Troop. My son tells me that his Troop just elected him SPL, and that he is going to try to get their PLC to schedule a rapelling trip with our Troop this coming year.

I don't know this as fact, but I believe he is taking back to his Troop some of the good parts of our program. This means that instead of a good Troop (us, in our opinion) simply getting a good Scout, and another Troop losing a good Scout, our Troop is helping another Troop improve itself through this young man.

My point is that by leaving your current Troop, you lose any chance of helping a Troop who might be doing things "wrong" (I wish I could use a better word than that). The Troop left behind never sees the better way, and loses a valuable resource to help it improve.

If your son has been wronged, it should be remedied (although I think Beavah makes some points to be considered). But please consider staying and having both you and your son be part of the solution. As a society (here comes the political soapbox!), I think we've become too accepting of the idea of just walking away from problems without any effort to fix them first. Whether Beavah is right or not, his point about this being an opportunity to teach your son some very important leassons starts, in my mind, with teaching him to pitch in to be a part of the solution. Both of you, and his Troop, could benefit greatly.

Best of luck to you.

Mark

Man, sorry to hear that.

I would classify this as aggregious (sp) disregard for the Scout Law. As such, I would delay the conclusion of the Board of Review until such time as the Scout could remedy the situation.

For me, that would include at least the following:

1) An apology to the Scoutmaster, the Board of Review, and the MB Counselor whose name was forged.

2) Completion of all of the requirements of the MB honestly.

3) A period, at least a month or so, but probably not more than three or four months, in which the Scout demonstrates that he actively accepts and lives by the Scout Oath and Law.

The BoR should give the Scout very specific guidance as to how he can overcome this transgression.

I don't believe any Scout should be punished permanently for not living up to the Scout Oath and Law. However, things like this can't be over looked. What is ashame sometimes is that some Scouts end up getting punished permanently for a mistake. If the Scout who did this is being reviewed for Star at 13 or 14, he has ample time to correct his mistake, make ammends, and use what he has learned to become a better person. But, if the BoR was for Life and the Scout is a day or two short of being 17 1/2, he doesn't have time in that case to fix his error and make Eagle, if that is a goal.

Ever since I was invloved in a similiar situation (a serious breach of the Scout Law within a month of a boy's 18th birthday), I have wished that there was some provision for dealing a BoR in order to allow the Scout enough time to make ammends. If your Scout is young enough, this can be a terrific learning experience for him. If not, it still might be a good learning experience, but it will also be a mistake with which he lives for the rest of his life.

Good luck to both of you.

Mark

Well, the results are in, and I think you'll find them interesting.

After trying to get together during last week's meeting failed, I asked the Scout to write out a short description of his belief system. As I've mentioned before, this is one of those guys who is a bit too smart for his own good, and it showed in his writing. He created a three page dessertation on comparative religions, got into the debates of free will and natural law, and discussed absolutism versus relativism. But in the end, he really didn't discuss his believe system.

We got together last night in the group I had hoped (SM, three BoR members, and the Scout - still no parents involved). I asked him to define what he means when he calls himself an agnostic. His answer, although shrouded again in "intellectualeeze", led all of the adults to understand that he was unsure that God exists because he can't accept the normal, common definition and vision of God - Flowing robes, long gray beard, father of Jesus, directing each of us as if we were on puppet strings (most of these were phrases he used later on). Rather, he accepted that "something" started the "big bang". He acknowledges that there must be some entity that makes people desire to do good and makes most feel bad when they do bad, and he even said that the "Golden Rule", which is what he tries to live by, seems remarkably like what most religions base their teachings on.

At that point, we asked the direct question - "Do you believe in a god - any god - with or without a capital "G"? His answer was a very convincing "probably, I do". I know that probably sounds wishy washy in print, but as I've said before, I have no reason to question this boys integrity. We asked a few more questions to make sure his answers stayed consistent, which they did.

We then went to to subject of how he lives up to being Reverent. He admitted he has no idea how to even do this with his current believe system. This led to a conversation based to some degree on one of the posts from this thread. I made the comment, and all the adults agreed, that had this young man said he struggled to be Courteous or Brave, the result would have been a discussion to help him find ways in which he can improve, and suggesting that he work to do so between now and his next BoR. We, including the Scout, agreed that he would make that a top goal between now and his Eagle BoR. the SM suggested strongly that he read Carl Sagen's book "Contact", which the Scout wrote down and seemed enthusiastic to tackle.

Can we be 100% certain he didn't do a great snow job on us? No. But I am as convinced that I can be that this process both helped a boy define his belief system more clearly than it had, while giving him a path to pursue and attempt to clarify things even more. Could we have been snowed? Yes. But I'd rather believe we did what Scouting requires us as mentors to do - Help a boy grow to become a man, sometimes in baby steps, and sometimes in giant leaps. Personally, I am proud of the way we handled things, and very comfortable with the results. I have many of you to thank for guiding me through this. Although the process was never going to be exactly as any one of you suggested, your input added to our local understanding of the boy and all of his environment and created a very positive outcome. Thank you.

Mark

Trev,

That sounds great!

Two years ago, a small group of us got together to come up with ideas how to revive our spring camporee, which was looking for life support. One Scouter (now our District Commisioner BTW), suggested a pioneering competition camporee. We decided on categories of Trebuchets, standard catapaults, and signal towers. No dimensional lumber, and no fasteners of any kind.

The first camporee had only 6 of the 27 Troops in our District attend, but everyone had a blast! They launched water ballons (although the corn starch might actually be more fun!). The event was so great, word of mouth advertising caused a total of 24 or 27 Troop to attend this past year's event.

Our only obstacle right now is reducing the amount of adult help provided. Leader's Guides are very clear about the expectation, but it's tough to make too big an issue when a New Scout Patrol is trying to display a new skill. But as we try to look the other way in those cases, but them make a big issue about adults helping older Scout Patrols, we've had some heated discussions.

Hope your event blossoms as well as ours has!

Mark

Once again, thanks for all the guidance.

We tried to get together with the Scout on Tusday night. ("we" is the original 3 BoR members, plus the Scoutmaster). We had hoped the Scout would want to include his parents, but he did not. The Scout talked to his parents about the issue during the intervening week, and were quite upset. However, they were upset more about what this might do to their son making Eagle. The family has never been very religious (I had forgotten this until I was reminded about it in the last week, but they once stopped him from doing a Scripture reading at Mass for Scout Sunday, without ever really giving a reason except they were uncomfortable with it). But they were definately not happy that their son was jeopardizing his chance to make Eagle. In that this guy is 17, as much as I would normally preferred to include his parents in this discussion, I have no qualms excluding them if the Scout desires.

Unfortunately, the environment wasn't good for a conversation. We had a Webelos Den visiting, and the Scoutmaster's attention needed to be more on answering questions from Cub parents. In addition, it just seemed like every time the rest of us started into the conversation again, the group of Cub parents kind of drifted too close to our conversation. So we got very little accomplished.

What we did discuss was based on the first two questions I asked: 1- How do you define being agnostic?, and 2 - Tell us how whatever belief system you have guides your actions and decisions. The boy had obviously given his position more thought to be prepared for our conversation Tuesday. He answered that he perssonally "leans toward there being a God because no one has disproved it to me". But when he got to talking about what guided his actions, he centered on what he feels is right, and what society deems to be the right thing to do. I think I was pretty obvious when I tried to get him to discuss how his skeptical belief in God (that's my phrase, not his) guided his actions, and he just wasn't taking the bait to talk about it.

Our conversation wasn't in enough depth that I have a real sense yet for his believe system. Given what I did hear, I'm more inclined to say he is a young man searching for answers right now than someone who has rejected the possibilty God exists. But way too little conversation has taken place for me to draw that conclusion without reservation.

John in KC - You're answer is interesting, because in reality, you are getting at what my real question was. Here's my understanding of the mechanics of the BSA. I think as a general statement, the Scoutmaster is in charge of Program. So this isn't specifically his responsiblity (and probably not within his authority). The BoR is an extension of the adult committee, and has no real standing to be making declarations of membership. Perhaps it should be the Committee Chair, but even then, I can't believe she can make determinations on her own. Should we contact the Charter Representative? Or, should we deal with someone in Scouting? If so, who? Should we start with our UC (who although I know I am not being KIND by saying so, is worthless as a UC)? Should I contact our DE? If I contact someone official, is the ball rolling too fast already to stop it if this is all just a bad misunderstanding? These are the questions I meant to ask by my original post, but did a poor job of verbalizing. I actually tried to find Dave Steele, but he no longer is in the last Scouting position I knew he had, and no one knew where to find him. But I was hoping to talk to a professional who was not associated with our Council or District to be able to ask these questions "off the record".

Again, thanks for your kindness, everyone.

Mark

I am going to defer to Beavah on the Consititution issues concerning copyright laws. He sounds like he knows more than I do (at least it SOUNDS that way).

However, my common sense tells me that if I create anything, I should own the rights to what is done with that creation, and may give it away, throw it away, or sell it away as I see fit.

If I create something and sell the right to enjoy my creation to another person, I believe he has the right to enjoy it as he / she sees fit. In the instance of a recording, my common sense tells me that should I want to have a second copy to listen to in my car rather than transporting my first copy with me where ever I go, I have that right.

However, if I create something and sell the right to enjoy it to another, and as a part of that right (called a license, I believe), the buyer agrees not to make copies for the enjoyment of others, when a buyer does so, he violates a contract. The creator is entitled (in my opinion - I am NOT a lawyer!) to compensation.

The government may have also passed laws making it a criminal act to act in conflict with the license. If they did, and someone were prosecuted, at some point, someone would have appealed a guilty verdict on constitutional grounds. I am not aware of sch a case yet. If there was one, it must have been decided in favor of the person who created the work, or this would not be an issue any longer.

So I have alsways worked from the assumption it is contrary to contract law, perhaps to criminal law, and at the very least the Scout Law, to copy music or movies in order to prevent to original owner from collecting money towhich he should be entitled. And I do my very best to pass that philosophy on to my children and the boys in our Troop.

Mark

Folks,

Thanks again for your insightful suggestions. I also want to commend everyone for returning back to the question. Even Merlyn, with whom I disagree almost 100%, was respectful enough to discontinue his fight in this thread when I requested. Thank you!

It just now struck me that I'm going to have to deal with at least portions of this issue again. One of our new Scouts is Budhist. Being completely and shamefully ignorant about Budhism, it never occurred to me that they don't worship a god.

He is scheduled for a BoR for Tenderfoot next week. For this rank, questions would normally center on his understanding of the Points of the Oath and Law, and almost not at all on his adherence. But at some point, how he demonstrates Duty to God and being Reverent will come up.

I pray that my God helps me with the wisdom I need to serve these two young men. I'll need it.

Thanks!

Mark

P.S. - I just proof read my post, and realized the comment about Merlyn seems like a jab. I tried to figure out how to reword it, and couldn't without changing the meaning of it. The comment was meant as a compliment, not a snide remark. I hope you will recieve it as such.

mk

Folks,

Thanks so much for your help! Most of the answers are the same considerations I had before I asked the question to you.

In reading your suggestions, and mulling it over myself, I think that my course of action will be as follows:

SM, Scout, and the three of us who sat on the BoR will get together. The Scout has asked that we not include his parents yet, as he wants to determine how he deals with this with his parents.

I would like to have us ask some or all of the following questions:

1) Tell us what you perceive being agnostic means to you.

2) We assume you are not religious. Are you spiritual? In what ways?

3) Do you believe in any higher authority at all?

4) Despite the fact you find no proof that the God most people recognize exists, do you recognize some other spiritual being (or beings)?

5) As a trustworthy Scout, which you have already demonstrated you are, if you understood the BSA's position as not extending membership to persons who do not believe in whatever concept of God they cam imagine, would you still desire to remain a member of the BSA?

6) If agnostic to you means that there is no proof God exists, are you searching for proof?

7) If not, are you attempting to disprove God's existence?

"Ullyses" is really a great kid. He's come a long way from the time he joined the Troop. He certainly is no "model" of a Scout. But this is one of those kids that I really, REALLY believe Scouting is perfect for. I always use the comment that a couple of our former Scouts, now at West Point, and at Penn State in the Engineering Pprogram, and a Dept. of Natural Resources officer in Clolorado, and a number of other guys in our Troop, would have been succesful with or without Scouting. But this guy has grown so much in the program. He literally was a smart mouthed, lazy kid who worked harder at avoiding work than if he just did what he was responsible for. Now, although he may never be the poster boy for what a Scout is, he takes responsiblities seriously. He can be counted on to be there. He's really very patient with the younger Scouts. This program has done him A WORLD of good. Yes, I don't want to see him leave.

On the other hand, if a member is intelligent enough to understand the requirements and decides he can no longer be bound by them, do I not have a responsiblity to make it an issue? As OGE says, I took an Oath, too. And the Oath I took is important to me.

To sum, I want to give this Scout the opportunity to make his position clear. If that position is a firm "there is no God until you prove to me there is", then I think once I explain to him the expectations of the BSA, he may leave on his own. If not, at that point, I think I need to call Council.

Thanks again, all. There are a large number of you I have missed corresponding with. Please feel free to contact me directly if anyone just wants to talk.

Mark

One more thing.

As much as appreciate everyone's right to their opinion about the right and wrong of atheists and agnostics, and as much as I appreciate everyone's right to express their opinion, it would be nice for everyone to realzie that debating the merits of the issue does not help me resolve the situation we have.

If everyone who wants to debate the BSA's right to exclude people would kindly do so elsewhere, so that the rest can help me resolve the specific issue, I would be VERY appreciative.

Thanks!

Mark

To all,

Thanks for so many great answers so quickly! I look forward to more.

Let me ask more specific questions. Would you contact anyone outside of the Troop (Distrcit or Council) about this? Who would you contact? Would you try to evade identifying the boy or tell them straight out who it is?

And lastly, although this certainly is an advancement issue, am I right to assume that it is a membership issue first, and therefore should be resolved by Council before the Board of Review?

As far as "how agnostic is he?", his position seems to be that he doesn't believe God exists, but he can't prove it. After the BoR concluded, one of the members of the Board recalled an instance while this boy was hiking on the A.T. A conversation with a very religious family sharing a shelter with our Troop caused the father of that family, a chemical engineer, to proclaim he had proof God exists because of the way the water molecule is formed and that it is the only substance that expands when it freezes. (I don't claim to understand the reasoning, I'm just the humble reporter). This boy went into a long diatribe about how that proves nothing, and something about the angle of the bonds or something like that. This Board member's understanding (in hind sight) was that this boy was taking a positive position that God did not exist, and that the chemist proved nothing.

And, as I think I said in the original message, this is not an immature 12 year old. This boy has thought through his position. Although he certainly may (hopefully, in my mind) change his position, he has made a definative decision that he is agnostic.

Dan,

That is very kind of you. I appreciate your warm words. I'm not so sure everyone else would appreciate my wordy posts returning, but thank you for saying you would.

Mark

Hello forum!

As I've mentioned before, I've cut back significantly on my activity here, as I feel I'm not as valuable a resource as I always thought I was. However, I do need your help. Allow me to describe a conversation I had in a Board of Review for Life Scout last night. The Boy is 17 years old. Within the Troop, we have described him at times as being one of those guys who might be too smart for his own good, if that helps you get a handle on the type of young man involved:

I asked the candidate to repeat the Scout Oath and Law to start the Review, which he did. When he finished and sat down, I asked him which of the 12 points of the Law he found easiest to uphold, and he answered Trustworthy, and he explained that over the years since he became a Scout, he has come to appreciate the value in being honest with himself and with others.

I then asked which point is the most difficult to follow, and he answered "Reverent, because, being an agnostic, it's very difficult to be reverent to a God you have no proof exists".

The entire three member board followed this line for quite some time trying to get a handle on the Scout's belief system, and trying to allow him the opportunity to reformat his answer. The Scout was cognizant of what we were attempting to do, and in the end, stated that he was firm in his position that he is an agnostic.

Please let me know how you would handle this. I have read the Declaration of Religious Principles. My take on this situation is that I am 80% - 90% sure that this young man does not qualify to remain a member. I also believe that he understand his situation well, and has a clear understanding of what it means to be and agnostic, and what that may mean for his standing in the BSA. Were this a 13 year old boy, I suspect I may just blow this off as a kid who really didn't understand what he was saying, and just picked up a buzz word. That's not this guy.

All comments are welcome!

Thanks!

Mark

Lisa,

I've been with our Troop for almost 12 years now. In that time, we've delayed advancement for only one boy, and it was based on the boy either not being able to, or refusing (I still don't know which) to describe some of the ways he has demonstrated Scout Spirit. But as the Advancement Chairman, if I knew an adult could not be open minded, I'd ask them to excuse themselves from the Board. However, if anyone has serious issues with a Scout's standing, but could be open minded enough to listen to the Scout's answers and be fair with his vote, I would hope that person would participate in the BoR.

One other time, an 18 year old Eagle candidate was turned down at the BoR. I was involved in investigating the facts of this ugly case, and because I did, I had already made up my mind to vote no if asked to serve on his BoR, so I spoke with the District Advancement Chair, filled him in on the details as I knew them, and asked to be excluded from the BoR. I helped the DAC recruit people for this Board that were not familiar with the issue, and with an impartial panel, the boy was turned down. I felt good about me doing my best to provide the boy a fair Board. I also feel good that those who did serve followed their convictions rather than doing the "easy" thing.

When faced with a decision like yours, one of my guiding principles is the line: "All that is neceasry for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." I realize that "evil" might not be accurate. But you get the drift. If we stand idly by and let others do wrong, we are part of the problem, not part of the solution.

Best of luck to you. I know it's not easy sometimes.

Mark

For what it might be worth, I have two views on your son's situation:

1st, it is common in our geographical area that when a boy commits to a sporting program, the coaching staff has an expectation that his commitment is 100%. I can understand why - The coach's responsiblity is less to an individual, and more to the team, and perhaps the school for which he coaches. If a boy isn't willing to commit 100% effort, there are other boys more than willing to step up. As understandable as that is from the coach's perspective, it is a real disservice to our children, I think. Our kids should have the opportunity to have to prioritize their schedule - to decide whether baseball is more important than Scouts today, and how he's going to make up his absence to his Patrol when that happens. It's good for a boy to feel he is experiencing a multitude of different activities, all with different goals and objectives, and from which he will benefit in different ways.

It's easy for a kid to be too busy, and I know we need to protect against that. If grades suffer, or family life is reduced to an unacceptable level, then the boy will have to back off. But few kids today are really in that position. If they removed the other distractions that, as pleasant as they may be (T.V. and video games are the most obvious but certainly not the only ones), most boys really have the time to participate in multiple activities, and would be well served to do so.

My 2nd point is about the relative value of Scouting in a boy's life. I read somewhere that the average teenager who participates in high school sports has a 1 in 2,500 chance to earn a scolarship to college athleticly, and a 1 in 16,000 chance of playing a sport professionally. this is not to say that athetics are not valuable - please don't misunderstand - But were I to choose whether I would like my sons to be better baseball players or to become the kind of man Scouting tends to produce, I'll take Scouting EVERY DAY. The skills and experiences a boy gets in Scouting will be appliciple in ANY profession, as well as the kind of husband, father, and citizen a boy will become. Throwing a fastball 90 MPH is really cool, but few have the genes to do so, and everyone else who skips Scouting in order to try will have the benefit of neither baseball nor Scouting.

In our Troop, we do whatever we can to help a boy participate in as many activities as he can accomodate. Most of the time, that means a boy shows up for a Scout meeting 20 minutes late and in cleats. Sometimes it means missing a campout. When he's older, it MIGHT mean he has to decide if further advancement is important enough for him to sacrifice some sports responsiblities. In our Troop, we've had both kinds of guys. We've had a few who wanted to continue to play (football, in both cases), and they came to Scouts when the could, but new that the decision would limited their ability to pursue Eagle Scout. Others decided that Scouting was more important, or fun, or valuable, or whatever they decided, and they gave up a sport, or played in a more recreational league. This has been true for band members and theater particpants as well.

In the end, if we can be the people who accomodate instead of create obstacles, we will have done a great service to a boy. I know I hope that the guys in our Troop feel they get enough from Scouting to want to stay, whether they continue with sports or not.

This is one of the reasons I have tried to limit my posting. Another novel! Sorry this is so long!

Mark

As with so many things in Scouting, this is a topic that has no specific answer. Certainly, somewhere on the continum of activities in which Scouts participate, the threshold of good clean fun gets crossed and the activity becomes hazing. And what makes it tougher, to me, is that the same activity could be good fun in one circumstance, and yet hazing in another.

Back about 8 years ago, during the first summer camp I attended, I was asked to be the "acting" Scoutmaster for the week. Early in the week, some of the older boys woke to find their underwear up the flag pole. Turns out this was the work of three of the first year Scouts, who worked a pre-emptive strike because they had heard it was going to happen to them. All of the older guys said they had not even thought of doing anything like that. But in any case, this was the cause of tremendous hooting, hollering and laughing during the entire week of camp. "The young guys got the old guys!!!" Now had this been reversed, perhaps it would have amounted to hazing. But because it was the younger guys pulling the prank, there's no way that I would call it hazing.

During the week, I kept hearing rumors that the older guys were plotting their revenge. Finally, on Friday at dinner, three of the older guys asked to sit with me at dinner and asked how far I would allow them to take their revenge. Their plan was to take the cots of the couple or young "ring leaders" and move them into the latrine while they were sleeping. I told them I thought that was going overboard, and didn't think it could be successfully done anyway. They asked if I would have a problem with some other type of retribution. I told them the only hard guideline I had is that NO ONE be injured.

The next morning, four of the new boys woke up to bright sunshine on their face. During the night, somehow, mysteriously, their tents were removed from over top of them and reassembled 10 feet away. Frankly, this was one of the funniest things I've ever seen in Scouting. No one got hurt, the older guys got their pay back, and everyone was even.

But the bigger benefit, in my eyes? We had seven new Scouts at that campout. They started the week as members of our Troop in name only. They didn't yet belong. They were the little kids. They weren't "us". When they came home, they were members of our Troop just like the guys who had been there a couple of years. They had the respect of the older guys. The older guys went out of their way to help and asssist the young guys whenever they could. These pranks remain in my mind the number one reason why my youngest son remained in Scouting. They also remain the biggest reason why my 22 year old son and my 17 year old sone are best friends. It was my youngest son Adam who masterminded the shorts up the flag pole, and my older son Matt who lead the tent moving escapade.

Now, there is a group of guys that range from 17 to 23 who get together whenever they can. On weekends when there is no campout, you can find anywhere between 4 guys (still in high school), and 13 guys (when the college kids are home) who have sleep overs, rotating between each of their houses. They stay up late, playing video games, and B.S.ing. Now that they drive, we hear them leave about midnight or so, and return 25 minutes later with pop, chips, cookies and frozen pizzas. I wake up about 5:00 to go play golf, and they are usually jut falling asleep. the kitchen is a mess. I have to move over a body or two in sleeping bags to find my shoes, and usually have to grab someone's keys to move a car so I can get out. But by the time I get home at 10:30 or so, they are all gone, and there's no evidence they were even there. The kitchen and the living room are spotless.

These guys will be friends for life, I predict, and I firmly believe it was two summer camp pranks that caused it.

Sorry for the long post. I get a bit teary eyed even thinking about have great this program has been for my sons. OK, I guess me, too.

Mark

dhedron,

Thank you for the sincerity of your concern. It is obvious to me you are guided by the principles Scouting holds dear. My suspicion is that this will work out the way it should.

Having been involved in two situations that at their core involved the same problem (allow or stand in the way of a boy working toward Eagle when it is a questionable result), I think the decision rides on which position supports the AIMS of Scouting: Character, Citizenship and Fitness.

In other words, which position would likely help this Scout improve his character, or citizenship, or fitness? One might say that allowing him to complete the rank will automatically improve a Scout's character. I'm not so sure I believe this, but it might be true. It's possible that because of the rank of Eagle, a Scout might recognize the need to be a better citizen than he otherwise might be.

On the other hand, it is possible that the Scout might learn more, might improve his character, might become a better citizen, by learning that procrastination, selfishness, and begging are not the characteristics our society holds in high esteem. All too often, we (all of American society, not just we in the BSA) inadvertently teach youth that there are no consequesnces for actions (or lack of action).

In re-reading my response so far, I think I may be less than balanced in my response. I thought about trying to even things up by being less harsh concerning the consequesnces idea, but I think perhaps the way I wrote it represents how I really feel. But regardless how I feel, my best advice is to let this thought guide your actions: If it will make him a better person, support it.

Either way, best of luck to you.

Mark

Kahuna,

I too feel bad for the loss the forum will experience if you go. However, I hope you take the advice of a couple of wise folks here and take a sabatical rather than leave entirely.

I found myself getting too involved in discussions regarding minutia that, regardless of how they were resolved (if at all), the solution would make almost no difference in the lives of the people I serve. When combined with the insessant bickering of two particular people, both of whom I admired, I felt that I was better off to reduce my investment in the forums. I check in from time to time, and occasionally there is a topic from which I learn, or, more rarely, for which I think I have some insight.

But for the most part, I have found a very comfortable balance. I hope you too find a level of involvement in these forums that makes you comfortable, yet still allows for some participation. But if not, I wish you the best (as does most everyone else, it seems), and hope you continue being a positive influence on the lives of the young men you serve.

Mark

What an interesting topic!

Barry made a lot of great points. I agree with him 99.85% on this one.

Barry made the observation that political correctness has us morphing gender equality into gender exactness, and that this attitude is incorrect (I hope I rephrased that and stayed true to your point). I couldn't agree more. Instead of trying to blur the differences between men and women (or between races, or between religions), we should be celebrating those differences, while at the same time treating each group fairly.

This is important because there are roles, tasks and jobs that one gender is suited for more than the other. When physical strength is a distinct advantage, as a general rule, men will do these jobs better. When sensitivity, especially to the subtle differences in human nature, is important, women will generally be the better choice.

That paints the topic with a very broad brush, and even I don't think that it is fair. Certainly some women make excellent construction workers, and firefighters and soldiers. And there are some very fine male nurses and teachers. My comments are meant to be very general.

Where I have a slight disagreement with Barry's position is that I don't think Scoutmastering is an area where males have an advantage over females. What are the characteristics that make a great (or even good) Scoutmaster?

High Moral Character

Willingness and ability to teach youth

Knowledge of leadership skills

(at least some) Knowledge of outdoor skills

Commitment to using the Eight Methods to reach

the three Aims of Scouting

If a Scoutmaster has these traights, what difference does it make how that person fills out their uniform? Neither men nore women have an edge on ony of these traits, in my opinion. Where I can agree with Barry is that if there absolutely is a tie, there are certainly SOME boys most every Troop has that can really benefit from a male role model in the position. Conversely, I submit that there are probably as many boys who could stand to be exposed to a female role model, too. Over all, though, I really don't believe that males have an edge over females for this important job.

Just for full disclosure, I'll add something that might come as a surprise. Our district has only had two female SMs since I've been involved in Scouting - 14 years now. and they were both horrible. I can't be any kinder about it than that. They were horrible. But they were bad not because they were female, but because they each lacked at least a couple of the traits I listed above. My point is that I come to my conclusion based on analysis rather than experience. IF that matters.

But in the end, all this may not matter. In speaking with our DE this week, he made a bold statement that sounded as if he knew something. He said that in ten years, BSA would morph into Scouting USA, and may look something very similiar to Scouts Canada. If so, I suspect that there may well be a closing of the gap between the number of male and female Scoutmasters. Now whether he really knows something or is simply specualting, I don't know for sure. But if he's right, this discussion may well be a moot point.

Best regards to all, and Happy Passover and Easter to all (even to the folks who spend most of their time in the Issues and Politics section).

Mark

We have 7 ASM's right now for a Troop of 24 boys. That probably seems like a lot, but here's the breakdown:

1) is Scoutmaster Emeritus, soley an honorary position for a previous SM who served for 16 years and wants to remain semi active. His biggest role is to work with new Scouts on Scout "rank" requirments. Other than that, he tells stories.

1) Is the New Scout Patrol ASM. We ask the father of a Scout who just finished his first year in our Troop to take this position. This ASM would have a good understanding of the program by this point, but still has that "fresh" quality that seems to work well for the newest Scouts. It aslo gives his son almost full year to be "on his own" without his dad attached to his hip, which has been a bit of a problem in our Troop occasionaly.

3) ASMs mentor our regular Patrols. When our Troop was bigger, this was an important position as our SM often was busy working with the SPL training him, and the Patrol Leaders had a uniformed leader to turn to if the SPL was busy. With our Troop the size it is now, these gents don't often get directly involved with Patrols. They do, however, camp with the Patrol the three - four times a year that the Patrol camps by itself, usually with another parent.

1) ASM works with our high venture Patrol. He is a bit more hands on. Our venture Patrol decides on their activities during the annual plan meeting, and usually plan 5 - 8 per year. Each activity finds one of the Patrol members as the crew leader, who is responsible for all aspects of the event - Planning, logistics, and training. Often, this Scout is only vaguely familiar with the activity, and the ASM trains this crew leader, who in turn then trains and leads the rest of the crew.

1) ASM is "at - large", and fills in if needed elsewhere. This has been our "problem ASM", because he hasn't seemed to have gotten the concept of boy - led yet (and it's been three years). He's always jumping in to do things the boys could easily do themselves.

If it helps, we also have a philosophy that has served us well. We ask EVERY parent to take on some type of responsiblity in the Troop. Some are strictly Board of Review folks. Some help run the socials after Courts of Honor. I help with advancements. My wife's only responsiblity is to cut out and glue letters for names that go on our Honor Banner. One mom organizes the boys once a year to clean and store our kayaks. We have two dads who are climbing experts and work our one climbing and rapelling event every year, and nothing else. We work by a philosophy that says "many hands make for light work". Few people in our Troop spend more than a few hours a month, yet everyone is happy with their contribution. We've become a pretty efficient unit the way we've arrange things. I can only hope that others find as much happiness in Scouting as we have, whether you follow our model or come up with one that works just as well.

Best of luck to you.

Mark

Falter,

Sorry to hear about your problems.

I think you will read many answers that speak to the appropriateness of expelling a Scout based on hearsay, rumors, and second hand info. I'd like to take a different angle.

We have had two intances when expulsion was a reasonable course to take. In both instances, after we considered whether the facts warranted that action, we considered what effect the expulsion would have if we followed through, and what effect not expelling the Scout would have if we didn't.

In both of our cases, we determined that there was far more value to be had for both the Scout, AND his fellow Scouts, by postponing the decision until a much later date. By expelling the boy, he loses what might be the only positive role models and program he has. And the other Scouts would lose the opportunity to deal with a difficult personality, something that few young adults have experinece with once they get into real life and find out that not everyone gets pigeon - holed like they do in school.

Obviously, safety must be the guiding rule. But before anyone cuts a Scout lose, please consider the unintended consequences. A boy might never get the firm but loving hand of a wise and caring Scoutmaster and other adults if he is turned loose.

Best of luck to you.

Mark