MileHighScouter

Hal, ban on hatchets? Well, if they are not mentioned in the training syllabus for ITOLS (Boy Scout Outdoor Ldr Tng), not in the Tot'n Chip, not anywhere in the BSA handbook, and not in the GSS, my position as a trainer was that they are not authorized for use in our units. Same as banned? No, banned is in the Unauthorized and Prohibited activities section of GSS. But then, swimming without proper supervision is not allowed, not banned. Anyway, I think, both as a leader and a trainer, that they are so dangerous as to be worthy of leaving home. jim

I SINCERELY hope that we all recognize that this chat room is a hoot, but that none of this belongs in our talks with our Scouts. A Scout respects other people at all times. But it is fun, so here goes BrentAllen WROTE: Obviously, you have no idea about the National Rifle Matches, and the Service Rifle category. Why is this important? If you study your history, you will know the reason the US was able to field an army so quickly for WWII was because we had so many civilians competent in riflery. COMMENT: Thats silly. The army teaches to shoot in basic. Many WWII soldiers had never fired any gun (after all, remember that most people live in cities, not in the county, even then). Moreover, we did not enter WWII quickly. The Philippines fell because of lack of replacement troops, WWI weapons & equipment, no air support, no transport and no ability to project our power that far. It took a year to enter the war in a meaningful way, and then that was a token. We got to North Africa (first ground troops not already in place at the beginning) in Nov 1942. BrentAllen WROTE: the "assault weapons" they wish to ban are just semi-automatic rifles. They are not full-auto as they make the public believe. COMMENT: Thats because automatic weapons are outlawed elsewhere, and have been since the 1920s (thanks to the hoodlums in Chicago and their Tommy guns.) Fun fact, the Thompson was invented for use in WWI, but arrived ready to ship on the last day of that war. BrentAllen WROTE: why should the government tell me which type of rifles I should be able to own, as a law-abiding citizen? Our local police chief said the streets of Atlanta would be filled with bodies and the gutters would run red with blood if the AWB was allowed to expire in 2004. Well, it's been 5 years and no bodies and no blood in the gutters. COMMENT: Huh. Use of automatic weapons has increased, as has the murder rate associated with them in the last five years. Ive seen blood in the gutters. But then I was a policeman. Is the complaint that there is not enough? Why tell you? Because, just like alcohol, driving and other stuff (see below) some people abuse their rights. It takes a license to drive a car. It should clearly take a license to own or shoot a gun. Let's compare. The US Constitution says that bankruptcy is ever person's right. But we have hundreds of pages of laws to make sure that a bankrupt doesn't get away with inconveniencing a credit card company, student loan, mortgage company etc. So the Constitution mentions guns. It does not make them exempt from further legislation, anymore than it makes bankruptcy subject to further legislation. BrentAllen WROTE: if you have no problem with this plan [AWB bill?], I guess you will have no problem when the government tells you which cars and trucks you can drive, how you must get to work (car pool or public transportation), which type pocket knife you can carry, which doctor you can see and which treatments you can receive, how much water you can use (same with gas & electricity), the list goes on and on. It's called freedom. Let me repeat - it's called freedom. COMMENT: Well, all those things are regulated. Cars & Trucks: try to buy one without an air bag, pollution control or a catalytic converter. How to get to work: who do you think chooses between more interstate or hwy lanes instead of light rail or subways, or vice versa? Knife you can carry: in most states a blade over 3 inches is a concealed weapon, also illegal are switch blades, spring knives, and in some places, gravity knives. Doctor & treatments: heard of HMO, PPO or Medicare/Medicaid restrictions on treatments and doctors? Thats all authorized by law. Water: Here in Denver we pay penalties for too much use, as they do in many parts of the country. Yes ITS CALLED FREEDOM. We vote for representatives (city, state, national) and they make laws, and we all abide by them, its called Freedom. BrentAllen WROTE: "Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin COMMENT: and the Patriot Act, which I have read, is almost indistinguishable in its scope, intent and grant of unchecked powers as anything Hitlers party adopted in the 30s. Facism, pure and simple. It abrogates the First, Fourth and Fifth Amendments, ignores the Thirteenth and Fourteenth Amendments and generally overturns all of the case law on search & seizure, secret proceedings and habeas corpus adopted in the last 200 years. BrentAllen WROTE: Why does anyone need a large flat screen tv? COMMENT: I dont know. But I know the Bushwacker made sure you have to buy a new TV, converter box, and antenna or subscribe to cable/satellite if you want to watch TV. BrentAllen WROTE: Why does anyone need alcohol? COMMENT: Dont know. But the government licenses who can use it, who can sell it, what you do with it, and how much it costs. And I know of no-one who thinks that regulation is bad. BrentAllen WROTE: Why does anyone need more than one phone in their house? COMMENT: I dont know. But I know that the government regulates EVERYTHING about telecommunications from price to use. BrentAllen WROTE: When you start letting the government tell you what you need, you don't want to see where you will end up COMMENT: Were way past starting. Your complaint is that someone is goring your ox. Well, lots of us have oxen that have already been gored. The first organized fight over the government's right to regulate occurred in Harper's Ferry and was lost only a few years after we became a country. BrentAllen WROTE: By the way, Ted Kennedy has killed more people with his car than I have killed with any of my "assualt weapons." So, who should have something taken away? COMMENT: The classic bait and switch. Lets talk the price of oranges and then complain that apples are soft. His crime was prosecuted. Did you shoot anyone? There are a thousand crimes a day in the US that I believe are resolved with the wrong disposition and punishment, so join the club. For example, a VP that takes $80 million from a company and then introduces legislation to make all that companys earnings from US Govt contracts tax free. Or a VP that shoots someone while intoxicated, but flees the jurisdiction in a US government airplane before the local sheriff can investigate. Always remember that they tired to impeach Clinton for a peccadillo, but it was an even dozen Republican congressmen who were immediately forced from office for their own sexual peccadillos, including Gingrich, who was a good guy. Glass houses, stones, .... BrentAllen WROTE: So, why should an law-abiding citizen want to own an "assault weapon?" Because our forefathers owned them in 1776. COMMENT: No they didnt. Assault weapons in 1776 were Brown Besses and they were in the armories, which were controlled by colony governors, which the British seized and the Colonials liberated. The rifles the milita carried were hunting and sporting rifles. Nary a semi-automatic among them (sorry, couldnt resist). SO WHAT, well we all think differently, and we vote. Thats FREEDOM. But what my right wing friends often forget is that my opinion is just as valid, and holding it does not make me any worse a person, patriot or citizen than they are.

Vol_Scouter wrote: "since Obama is leading us headlong into socialism" COMMENT: Well, I personally think politics doesn't belong in Scouting, but that comment is too rich to ignore. Bush gave almost a billion to churches (so long as the ministers agreed to support him and his policies from the pulpit.) Bush gave trillions to banks, AIG (a swiss owned insurance company) and others who have not used it to loosen credit or save homes (although the statute passed for the money says in its "purpose" section that it is intended for the purchase and refinance of residential mortgages), but instead either transferred the money out of the US, or used some of it for bonuses, perks and dividends. AIG tripled executive bonuses retroactively with its money. Bush gave trillions to oil companies because they didn't have the money to explore (while they set records for profits), remembering that all the majors in the US now are foreign owned companies. Bush gave no bid, no tax contracts to Haliburton and related companies for the war. No one in history ever had a law passed to make their earnings from government contracts tax exempt until Haliburton. This is the same Bush who raised taxes 6 times on the middle class and 3 times on social security earnings. Having the government give your money to those who have not earned it is socialism. In order to catch Bush, Obama will have to work overtime indeed. Am I a Democrat. No. I'm a Republican and an Army Vet who never could support the draft dodging, AWOL, coke using, facist who preceded Obama. But I'm also an optimist -- so HOPE abounds.

Hi. Some options. 1. have them made. For example, we have a round 3" Polar Bear patch in Council for overnights below zero. We did one event where it was -26 degrees. I had a segment made and sold it myself. Read "-26 Degrees, Feb. 02". Cost $.83 each and I sold them for $1. Contact Welsh Industries (recommended on Scouter.com) and they make their patches in the USA. They are slow, but good. http://www.welshind.com/index.htm 2. for overnights you can uUse the Nat'l supply generic patches. 3. google the name of the patch you want. I found a outfit that puts out a miles hiked patch, from 100 miles hiking up to 1000 miles jim

Hal Crawford wrote: "Getting the straight answers is difficult in part because BSA does an awful job of writing policy. In the G2SS they often fail to clearly define their terms and they often use the word "should" when they may mean "must". They use the word "guidelines" when they probably mean "rules". Sort of like the Pirate's code from Pirates of the Caribbean... "its actually more of a guideline". COMMENT: First, you are correct, the GSS is written by committee, with updates that are not well placed or organized (especially with regard to special rules for Cub Scouts), and mostly no lawyers are involved (jokes aside, writing rules is their profession). But, the GSS is in fact "Rules" and "Policy" and "Guidelines". The bold face type is a RULE (see for example the list of "Unauthorized and Prohibited Activities"). These are written as declarative statements. POLICIES are stated as descriptions of broad areas and how to proceed. For example, see the heading "Project COPE Activities, which says: "Project COPE (Challenging Outdoor Personal Experience) low and high course elements are intended to be used in conjunction with a council activity that meets the current Project COPE National Standards, No. 20-172. Units may participate in age-appropriate initiative games, but under no circumstances should attempt to construct low- or high-course elements." Finally, there are GUIDELINES which are rules, but are stated in a manner that allows implementation as closely as "practicable". These are the things that look like rules but are in the lighter type face. For example, in the first chapter under the header "Youth Member Behavior Guidelines" the following appears: "Misbehavior by a single youth member in a Scouting unit may constitute a threat to the safety of the individual who misbehaves as well as to the safety of other unit members. Such misbehavior constitutes an unreasonable burden on a Scout unit and cannot be ignored." That's a rule but written to allow the unit to figure out how to implement it, hence it becomes a guideline. Hal Crawford wrote: What is "backcountry" or "wilderness"? When does a "hike" become a "trek"? .... Where does the backcountry start? .... "What is "high adventure"?" COMMENT: This is a good example of the problem with the GSS, often it is subtle when it means to be informative. In the Section "Wilderness Camping" the first paragraph refers to the "Passport to High Adventure" publication. OFTEN the GSS references a place where the details and more nformation is contained. Sometimes it reprints it all. For example the definitions and uses you are mentioning here are elsewhere, but you are directed where by the GSS. On the other hand, things like Safety Afloat and Safe Swim Defense are actually reprinted in full in the GSS. The choice has to do with volume and the most often needed/used information. Hal Crawford wrote: "Many think that there is a rule against sheath knives. In fact it says they should be "avoided" and that they are "unnecessary". Some camps prohibit them. Any wonder there is confusion?" COMMENT: I agree. But the BSA sold imprinted sheath knives for 50 or 60 years. They are unlikely to ban them. However, they are telling the user to prohibit them at the Council (summercamp) or unit level. OR have a special activity / training to teach proper use and provide an opportunity for use. The GSS should not be viewed as a "don't" manual, but a "how to" manual. The GSS almost always provides a way for aboutg any activity. By the way, you will note that the word "hatchet" does not appear in the GSS, nor in the Tot'n Chip requirements. So, even though the BSA sold hatchets for 50-60 years, some things are too dangerous not to ban. Hal Crawford wrote: "I would love it if this forum could "clear the air and get out straight answers" but I doubt that is possible." COMMENT: That is exactly what I hope to foster! thanks, Ol' Buffalo, jim

funny patrol names? we've had the Wolf Kings (a summer camp staffer had never heard of a wolverine and it stuck, complete with custom patch) Flying Monkies (Wizard of OZ?) Green Meece (from the goofy BSA Moose patrol patch that looks like a green frog)

Hey sk84v, CONGRATS! As a 12 yr SM I assure you that you can make your Eagle. Just make sure your SM and SPL know your goal, be active and take every opporutnity at meetings, activities and camp outs to sign off requirements. Also, don't forget the "automatic" merit badges - the ones you can get from teachers and coaches (with your SM's approval and a blue card): art-painting-pottery-sculpture (art class); architecture; american business-salesmanship-entrepreneurship (business, DECA, economics classes); citizenship (x3)- (history, social studies, politics, etc classes); animal science-plant science-nature-mammal & reptile study (biology classes); communications-public speaking (english, speech, debate classes); athletics-personal fitness-sports (coaches & gym classes); engineering-drafting-metalworks-electricity-electronics-computers (shop, computer, drafting, etc classes); bugling-music (music, band or orchestra classes or tutors); space exploration (got mine in a aerospace science class); WELL YOU GET THE IDEA! Have fun -- if it ain't fun, it ain't scouting! jim

Depends on the issue. What's your question? My idea of the straight answers are the ones found in the GSS and other pubs, but a lot of folks either don't know they exist, or have heard that there are "exceptions" or "unwritten" rules. So, what's your issue? jim

Hey, this is a GREAT opportunity for the Troop to get 2 more scouts! We just did three cross-overs at different packs. At two of them, they had boys who "didn't want to be boy scouts", which after 12 years as an SM I know means "mom & dad think that with soccer, sports, school, etc. johnnie won't have time - Mom won't have time to get to another activity". ANYWAY... We always accept these guys over the bridge, give them their loops (our scouts put them on the boy) and then shake their hands, get them off to talk with the other cross-overs and our scouts and PRESTO CHANGO we have a high percentage of this crossing-but-not-crossing boys decide that regardless of mom's preferences, they want to stay with their buddies and go to a scout meeting. One meeting, and they're hooked. Have fun. If it ain't fun, it ain't scouts. jim

Congratulations! You'll love being a Web 2 den leader. Now for your letter. I like it. One thing I noticed is the reference to Tae Kwon Do. The BSA Guide to Safe Scouting permits scoutgs to engage in "non-striking" martial arts. The exact language of the GSS which is found under the heading "Unauthorized and Prohibited activities" reads as follows: "Boxing, karate, and related martial artsexcept judo, aikido, and Tai Chiare not authorized activities." The GSS is your friend. It keeps your scouts safe and keeps you out of trouble. Nothing wrong with you and your kids provding an "exhibition" and nothing wrong with teaching "non-striking" self-defense acts like how to break a hold and get free. You have lots of great ideas for program. Remember, one of your jobs as the DL will be to get your boys to cross over into Boy Scouts. Best if they all join the same troop, that makes a "instant" patrol and goes a long way to keep them all active through eagle. One of our patrols recently completed its last eagle. They were all webelos together and they all made eagle! Good luck and enjoy! jim

You didn't say whether there is a problem, other than your feeling about "nepotism". Is it a small unit? Not enough parents willing to take jobs? Many small units have to give adults several hats. However, if there are adults without jobs, then the CC should be recruiting other adults for the duplicate jobs.

Hi. I've spent the last several years as chair of our District Training Committee and training Health & Safety Courses and all other Boy Scout Training. I've noticed that there are lots of myths, "unwritten rules" and other issues pertaining to health & safety, Guide to Safe Scouting, and training matters. I hope this topic will help to clear the air and get out straight answers