MikeS

Would you by any chance have any additional info on that and/or a link to the song??

Thanks 

Here's a (possibly odd) question directed more towards Lodges that have an established Drum. 

Just out of curiosity, has anyone come up with a Round Dance version of the OA Song ("Firm bound.....")?? I'm thinking something along the lines in the style of say Northern Cree, Pipestone, Black Lodge. 

If it's been done, just trying to get a few ides of what you've come up with.   

Passaconaway Lodge here in NH just got its first female youth 'Arrowman' this past weekend at the Spring Ordeal/Fellowship Weekend. 

Several years ago, we did one for my father-in-law who had almost 80 years in Scouting and almost as much in the OA. We had a great Ceremonies Team, but we'd never done such a ceremony. Went more or less "by the book" and were able to get a quick practice in - did the two lines of Arrowmen with linked arms, but in one spot, one Arrowman was holding one end of the Arrow and another Arrowman the other so as to create an "empty spot" for the deceased brother. His sash was draped over the arrow. The same arrow was later broken, so...if you do something like that, the arrow is typically 'notched' about half way down so it breaks easily. Need to be careful so as not to break it before it's actually supposed to be broken. Very intense ceremony and we had a lot of good comments. If you can manage a bit of practice beforehand, it's a ceremony that will be remembered by many. It's a very unique experience. Regalia was worn sans headdress.  

Glad to hear that the non-OA/Scout affiliated entity “Standing Bear Productions, LLC” is catching on! So long as it is presented as a stand-alone non OA/Scout entity, I believe it should work as the “work-around”.

That said, it’s even more important now to do the proper research into your local tribe’s culture and traditions and ‘get it right’.

A note on females as Principals. I agree that Lodges should follow whatever local tradition is. In my neck of the woods, you could indeed have a Medicine Woman as well as a Chiefteness, but never a Guide or Guard.

One of the issues however, is that the Lenape names for the Principals, particularly the Chief and Medicine Man are specifically masculine and refer to a male. I’m pretty sure National has not taken that into consideration.

For those who may be wondering, in Lenape a female chief (even though traditionally this is not part of Lenape culture – i.e. no female chiefs), is “Sakimachque” (saw-kee-MAW-khkway). The ‘kh’ is like “ch” in German “Bach”. “Great Chiefteness” is "Kitakimachque" (kee-taw-kee-MAW-khkway).

A female shaman/Medicine Woman (which do exist in Lenape culture) is “Metewechque” (m’-teh-WEH-khkway).

The “-chque” ending marks the feminine and is equivalent to “-skwa” in other Algonquian languages. This ending was misinterpreted by the English who thought it meant simply “woman” and became Anglicized into the now pejorative “squaw”. OK – lesson over 😊

I've only seen the revised ceremony scripts - they tweaked them a bit, but really not by much; you kind of have to 'look for' the changes.

With the inclusion of female youth in the OA, I wonder if National has gone so far as to realize that if females choose to be on a ceremonies team, a few of the current names of Principals will need to be changed.

I also wonder if it will be left up to local custom and tradition as to what specific roles female youth could take on? In my neck of the woods (northern New England), you can have a female chief (though rather rare) and medicine woman, but not a guide or guard. In some traditions, only males may be chief (the Lenape have such a custom), many have medicine women, a few have guides, but I don't believe any would have female guards. 

In case you were wondering -

A chiefteness in Lenape (Northern Unami - the dialect the OA borrowed its terms from) is Sakimachque (saw-kee-MAWKH-kway). KH is like German 'ch'. 'kway' rhymes with 'day'.

A medicine woman is Metewechque  (m'-teh-WEKH-kway). 

The '-chque' ending is cognate to the Abenaki and Wampanoag ending -skwa. 'ch' in some Algonquian languages is 's' in others. Lenape '"chgook" is Abenaki "skog" - same word ('snake'). The -chque ending creates the female form, so to speak, of the word. It is not a word that can stand alone; it has to be attached to something. Despite this, the English took it to mean a generic word for "woman" and came up with what is now considered the pejorative stand alone term/word, "squaw".

OK - History lesson done 

To my knowledge Chapter ceremony teams have not been disbanded - the Call-Out Ceremony is typically written by the Chapter, though a generic Call Out scrip is available through National.

It' the Cross-Over / AoL Ceremonies that have been poo-pooed by National and replaced by an "official script"/"Ceremony".  Maybe that's what you're thinking of??

With the upcoming Holiday Season, I thought I would take this opportunity (while it’s still allowed – and you can take that any way you’d like) to post a Lënape version of Clement Moore’s most well known work – ‘Twas the Night Before Christmas.

 This version is done in the Northern Unami dialect  - this is the one the OA borrowed all its nomenclature from.

 The left side is the Lenape, the right side the literal translation to English.

 This was translated by one of my Lenape language contacts, Ray Whritenour (a/k/a/ Schkaak). Mr. Whritenour is one of the foremost authorities on Northern Unami.

 As a linguist myself, I would like to just point out the phenomenal difficulty in translating verse from one language to another – yes, with great difficulty it can be done, but to also get it to rhyme in the target language requires true mastery of the language.

Notice the names of the reindeer - they are literally translated: Prancer = "Fancy Walker", Vixen = "Fox", Comet = "Star", Cupid = "Little Archer," Donner and Blitzen = "Thunder and Lightning". 

There is a link at the bottom of the poem. If you copy it into your browser, it should open up a sound file where you can hear Mr. Whritenour recite the poem. AS far as he knows, this is the longest piece of recorded Northern Unami ever done (beats my translations of simple meals graces by a mile).  

 Enjoy……

 GESCHIECHSIT NICOLAUS KIWIKEU   {SAINT NICHOLAS HE-VISITS}

Celischmassinkpanne allamigawan                 {when-it-was-Christmas inside-the-house}
ta auween ktschukquiwi nachpene poques      {not a-person he-does-not-move even a-mouse}
kakunall hattepannil wscheyiskte                   {stockings they-were-there by-the-fire}
eli geschiechsit Nick pecho a pat                     {for Saint Nick soon would he-come}

amemensak chansonink achpopannik            {children in-bed they-were-there}
kendisall wuntschi laschimuinewo                 {candies of-they they-dream}
wikimak woak ni ndachansonunanink            {my-wife and I in-our-bed}       
nschengiechineen wentschi a gauwijenk        {we-lie-down so-that could we-sleep}

auwijewi quatschemunk ganschhittaquot        {however outside there-is-a-terrible-noise}
lachpi ndamui nemen elekup                          {quickly I-arise to-see-it what-happened}
eheschandekink ngeschamehhella                  {to-the-window I-run-fast}
nanne ndauwunna woak nemen elek               {then I-open-it and I-see-it what-it-is}

nipahwi gischuch nentsitasu kunink                     {of-night the-luminary he-appears on-the-snow}
woaselenemen elemamek hakink                         {to-illuminate-it all-over on-the-ground}
enda kschiechi nentsitawichtit neschgink              {when clearly they-appear-to-me in-my-eyes}
tangtatask woak chaasch achtschuhuwunschak     {a-little-sled and eight little-deer}

tataskwunk mihillusis allumskuseu                     {in-the-sled an-old-man he-drives}
schawi nennawa geschiechsit Nicolaus               {immediately I-recognize-him Saint Nicholas}
taat woapalannewak lachpi pepannik                 {like bald-eagles quickly they-come}
woak schipuweu woak wuntschimawall lueu       {and he-whistles and he-summons-them he-says}

"Keschihillat! Kendkat! Wilawochweet! Woakus!"     {“Dasher! Dancer! Fancy-Walker! Fox!"
"Alank! Teengpommwet! Pedhakquonk! Sapiak!"     {“Star! Little-Archer! Thunder! Lightning!}
“awossenachke li wochgitaque li"                           {“over-the-fence to on-top-of-the-house to"}
“kschihillak! kschihillak! kschihillak! wemi!"             {“go-quickly! go-quickly! go-quickly! all!"}

taat combachkwall talli wawujallachsu                 {like leaves in a-whirlwind}
pommihillewall li pemmapannik                           {they-fly toward the-sky}
nanne wochgitaque nawahhellewak                     {then on-top-of-the-house they-alight}
witschi cheli pechpapitonk woak Nick.                  {with many a-toy and Nick.}

nanne spanquewoaganink mbendawanep      {then in-the-wink-of-an-eye I-heard-them}
amangitinkhattachgihhillepannik                   {they-were-stomping-hard}
nachk ngettenemenep woak ngwelpihilla       {my-hand I-pulled-it-away and I-turn-around}
ehelinguatekink Nicolaus niechiu                   {in-the-chimney-pipe Nicholas he-comes-down}

miechhekenink pegiu wil li w’sit                       {in-fur he-is-dressed his-head to his-foot}
equit niskewall untschi wipelachteu                 {his-clothes they-are-dirty from chimney-soot}
wiwasch wunajundamen menotesink               {a-bundle he-bears-on-his-back in-a-sack}
linaxu pepamchit enda tauwunnenk                 {he-looks-like a-trader when he-opens-it}

wuschgink waseleu woak k’lakelendam            {his-eye it-is-bright and he-is-merry}
wonanno woak w'hickiwon machkewall            {his-cheek and his-nose they-are-red}
spwetonechin taat gechpilgussowoagan           {he-has-his-lips-pursed like a-knot}
wittoney woapsu taat kuhn woapelechin          {his-beard it-is-white like snow it-is-white-and-shiny}

hopoakan wipitink w’tschitaninin                         {a-pipe in-his-teeth he-holds-it-tightly}
queschhattek wuntschi wikhen woakawi wil         {smoke from-he builds-a-house around his-head}   
neka chinktelinqueu woak machaskutscheu         {he he-has-a-large-face and he-is-big-bellied}               
ktschukquihilleu enda kekeleksit                         {he-shakes when he-laughs}
 

manittotit wisu woak wingelendam                      {a-little-spirit he-is-fat and he-is-happy}
woak ngekeleksihump enda newake                    {and I-laughed when when-I-see-him}
nanne mboakinquehelluk woak gluphokqueu        {then he-winks-at-me and he-turns-his-head}
metschimi woatellit ta wischasiwun                      {soon he-makes-it-known-to-me not to-not-fear}

ta w’teliechsiwi schuk mikemossu                        {not he-does-not-speak but he-works}
otschuwiechtonall kakunall nanne eu                    {he-fills-them the-stockings then he-goes}
lohikan w’taton w’hikiwonink                               {an-index-finger he-places-it on-his-nose}
tatandachgokwehelleu na allumsu                        {he-nods-his-head then he-goes-away}

tatask pusu w’schipuwe achtuhwunk                  {the-sled he-boards he-whistles to-the-deer}
palli kendhuwak taat wochganim nimchok          {away they-fly like seed which-wind-blows-away}
amangiechsu eli echquineichgussit                     {he-shouts as he-disappears
“meli Celischmass!  wawullamallessik!"              {“Merry Christmas!  Fare-ye-well-always!"}

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gesd0z1ymucpe … 1.WAV?dl=0

As someone posted earlier - "Lord" is almost distinctly Christian (or maybe I should say has Christian connotations) and, of course, "father" assumes a male deity. 

I have translated the Philmont Grace into a few Northern New England native languages - replace "Lord" with "Creator" , get rid of the Judaeo-Christian "Amen" and replace it with "thus may it be" (yes, I know that's essentially the meaning of "Amen", but it's not religio-specific), and it becomes much more generic.

It's not a matter of trying to be PC, but rather trying not to be slanted toward a specific religious group/belief. On a related note, I have never seen a "non-denominational"  Scouts-Own service that is not geared specifically towards a Christian audience. Just for the heck of it, I had done one one time that used readings, lessons, etc. from some of the world's lesser known religions; absolutely no reference to Christianity, Judaism, or Islam at all. Kind of interesting.  

@HelpfulTracks

I asked about it at our Fall Ordeal weekend this past weekend and apparently many seem to think it was actually the four Principals in robes - could have sworn it was the audience, but maybe not. 

It was my understanding that the black robes were worn by the Arrowmen spectators, not the four Principals; they were in regalia. Is that not correct??

The work-around, as discussed in other threads on this subject (q.v.) is what I term "Standing Bear Productions, LLC" - no official affiliation with the OA or even BSA.  

The only two caveats I would have for going an "alternative route" would be to have a serious review of your Crossover/AOL ceremony to ensure that it is appropriate and does not use or promote stereotyping of N/A culture; and, make sure that any regalia is as spot on as possible for your local area. The ubiquitous 'ribbon shirt' is certainly okay in a pinch or where the local custom (due to climate, etc.) is to go bare-chested and wear a just a breachclout - use your judgement and common sense. 

Some of the worst offenders I've seen on things like YouTube is when all four Principals appear in full blown double trailer war bonnets - just because they may be cool to wear, doesn't mean you should. Again, research, research, research! Something like that would constitute a legitimate complaint by a N/A tribe/group. If you can't quite come up with appropriate headgear for various reasons (cost, availability of supplies, etc.), better not to wear anything than the glaringly wrong thing.  

OK - Off my soapbox :)

Thanks Oldscout448 for the 'recap' of what was discussed at NOAC.

I'm pretty sure National gets a few e-mails monthly with respect to "cultural appropriation" - I suspect, given how some Lodges approach AIA/Ceremonies, etc.,  some of the complaints are legit, but I also suspect that some are from people just trying to make a point, as it were.

As some have stated, it should have been more of a development of a set of rules and guidelines rather than entirely eliminating what in most cases can be a powerful experience.

Our Chapter is currently on 'summer hiatus', but once things get rolling again in September, I'm hoping we can come up with a "Standing Bear Productions, LLC" solution without upsetting that applecart known as the Lodge. I suspect they'll have no issue with it - our Lodge Advisor was quite enthusiastic about wanting to get more AIA in the Lodge, so I don't anticipate an issue. It might be more convincing the Packs it's still okay to use our "splinter business entity" for their ceremonies

I have to agree with most on this subject.

To say that the new scripts form National are ‘rather lame’ would indeed be a kindness. Any Scouts can perform these as written; there is absolutely no need for the OA to do these.

The Crossover is essentially an infomercial/promo on high adventure camps that are so cost-prohibitive, most Scouts will never be able to afford to go.  

There are plenty of AOL/Crossover scripts out there on the internet that incorporate Native American themes. A Pack may choose to do any one of these.

Most OA Crossover/AOL ceremonies, however, are written by the Chapters.    

We have/had a combined Crossover/AOL ceremony that was based on many of the local American Indian traditions including traditional songs, storytelling, honoring the parents, and a give-away. Our regalia was carefully researched and we even used a few words and phrases from our state’s original language in the ceremony. When a Pack requested our Chapter to do their Crossover/AOL, they got our ceremony – i.e. we essentially only do our ceremony, but if there are particular elements they’d like incorporated, we were usually able to work it in. 

Our Lodge has even been involved with sponsoring a pow-wow at which we would teach Native crafts to kids all morning while adults were preparing themselves for the Grand Entry.

As many have said, if carefully researched and done correctly, it can provide for a very impressive experience for the Webelos (and observing Pack).

That said, it just takes a few ‘bad apples’ to ruin it for the rest.

I would be very curious to know exactly what the complaints were that they got from American Indian groups/Nations/Tribes(?) which prompted the drastic change in policy. I suspect that will never become “public information”.  As to inconsistencies, see above – there are hundreds of such ceremonies; it is a rare thing to see any two Packs having the same ceremony (at least in my neck of the woods). I don’t see the issue here.   

It was always my understanding that, as far as the black robes are concerned, those were worn by attending spectators (Arrowmen) at the ceremonies whilst the Principals wore regalia.

As a note – if native dress has been handmade, or even bought (providing it’s properly made and bought from a reputable establishment), it is never referred to as a ‘costume’; it’s either ‘native dress’ or ‘regalia’. To refer to it as such is considered insulting.

I have to wonder if this is just a one-time thing, i.e. complaints with Crossover/AOL ceremonies from a particular American Indian group targeted at a specific Lodge/Chapter, and as a result Crossover/AOL ceremonies got revamped for everyone, or is this the beginning of phasing out the American Indian element of the OA? That’s a phenomenal amount of symbolism that will need to be reworked into new ceremonies and traditions (WWW, admonition, vigil names, lodge names, induction ceremonies, just to name a few).

Someone had mentioned Chapters starting a “hire-out” type group as a sort of loophole around the rule. A group of youth who do Crossover/AOL ceremonies using American Indian symbolism, etc. Pretty much business as usual but “sans sash”. These groups would wear regalia and would not have or make any references to the OA, i.e. “Standing Bear Productions, LLC” as an official name of such an entity. Interesting idea, but not sure it would fly if the same mistakes are made that initiated the initial complaints in the first place.

It also begs the question of whether Packs will be permitted to make any reference to American Indians in any of their ceremonies.

As having A/I ancestry, I don’t have any issues with Chapters using regalia, etc. so long as it’s done correctly and with respect to the culture and people being emulated. That said, I have seen ceremonies plastered on YouTube that are just cringeworthy.  

I did not attend NOAC but would be interested to hear if this recent change was addressed and to what extent.

Yes, we use hand drums and flute as the Candidates proceed to the ceremony ring - it's a long path through the woods so plenty of places to situate oneself unseen by the Candidates, but the music heard by all who are in the area.

It works quite nice if players are familiar with the instruments and are actually playing a piece and not just making 'sound'. 

We have a huge hand drum that is used for some ceremonies which, on a quiet night on a lakefront, can be heard for quite some distance.   

Guess I don't really see what the big concern is with coed rules and the like - there has been co-ed Scouting in the US since the 50's; the Polish and Ukrainian Scouts (ZHP and Plast, respectively) have been coed in this country since they "moved" here in the 1950's - not sure why we just don't confer with them to see how they've been dealing with these issues for the past several decades in the US. I'm sure they've figured out most of the 'bugs' by now.

 Ukrainian "Plastunka" - female member of 'Plast'                                  Polish ZHP (Hufiec/Council "Warmia"

I'm sure they could offer a ton of info  - Just sayin'

If it is done correctly, I don't see it as an issue. Many regalia pieces are based on historic pieces and are meticulously researched. Some are even more "authentic" and historically correct (in not only appearance but construction) than what many actual tribal members will wear to a typical Pow Wow. If done correctly and respectfully, complaints are pretty rare around my neck of the woods. That entails actually learning the culture and learning what is appropriate and what is not.  

That said, you do see the "Chief Wannabe" types as well, which unfortunately give the Order a bad name.

Here's a popular Christmas Carol translated into the Northern Unami dialect of Lenape (the dialect the OA borrowed from).

Enjoy! 

Lënape Carol.pdf

Obviously, the names of the Principals may need reconsideration - 'Guide' would still be okay for either male or female, all other "positions" though were typically male. You could, of course, have a female Medicine Woman, but you couldn't keep the Lenape name as it refers strictly to a male.   

Considering most Scouting in the world is co-ed, I think it's about time we jumped into the current century. Why would it not be possible to see how other countries that have had co-ed Scouting for years and years deal with it. In fact Polish Scouts and Ukraine Scouts are actively established right here in the US (a fall out from WWII, I believe)  - 'ZHP' and 'Plast' are both co-ed, and right here in the US - why not learn from them?? 

As Teams become more "well known" in their district (and even out of district), it's not at all uncommon to get multiple requests in the same day.

Kudos for your Team handling the scheduling snafu so well (but get used to it - it does indeed happen).

Our guys have a tradition this time of year - when we have two 'back to back' ceremonies, they do not change out of regalia, rather they proceed to a local McDonalds, walk in (a la full regalia) and order Shamrock shakes. Funds are generally in one of their many pouches. I can just imagine the look behind the counter:)

Whatever works!

Night time seems to be the general consensus with which I totally agree; the Ceremonies as written (particularly Ordeal) are really not written for a "daylight" performance.  

CalicoPenn and Oldscout448,

Yeah, oftentimes I suspect it's the kitchen crew who actually determines when the ceremonies are held! Typically, they have an idea of when dinner will be ready and it's almost up to the adult ceremonies advisor to then determine when the ceremonies will be held. It's totally ridiculous.  

With the change, the kitchen crew could do dinner whenever they wanted to since the ceremonies would not happen until later in the evening.

Totally agree - some of Meteu's lines sound ludicrous at 5:00 pm in bright daylight and even worse at our past Fall Lodge Conference (they decided to offer an Ordeal Weekend as well) this past weekend when the ceremony was at about 2:30! Just kills it completely!

Thanks Calico Penn - that's kind of what I suspected, i.e. not policy, but rather guideline only.

Hope we can get it changed in our Lodge. The issue would be logistics I suspect and I'm sure we'll get flack from someone, but at least it's something that is not etched in stone and can't be changed - really good to know.