MikeS

Should have added - yes, we also do Brother hood Ceremony before the Ordeal one. Oftentimes, there are multiple B-hood and multiple Ordeal Ceremonies done.  

Thanks for the comments - very interesting! Obviously it's something that IS done.

I'm curious if any of you know how your Lodge sort of, I hesitate to use the phrase, "gets around" National's (I don't know if it's actual policy, so I'll call it "concept") concept of maintaining the "official sequencing" of the Ordeal weekend such that the Ceremony should be done then the banquet??

Has there ever been any opposition in your Lodge from the adult Ceremonies Advisor ?? One of the reasons I ask is that we have a Ceremonies Advisor who is sort of the "Ceremony Police" (I'll be nice) who is VERY insistent on following National's policy/guidelines (are they just guidelines??) so it would be convincing him that this is a viable option and many lodges do actually do it (despite what National policy may be).  

I'm totally on board with the rescinding the pledge of silence for a few hours a little before and during the banquet then all meeting in one place and going back to silence until the Ceremony. Just trying to come up with the logistics and ideas various Lodges do regarding this and to see if any Lodges DO do it this way.  

Thanks!!

Hello All,

A quick question on the Ordeal Ceremony or perhaps I should say Ordeal “Sequenceâ€.

I’ve heard of some Lodges doing the Ceremony after the banquet – wondering if your Lodge does this and how it’s done.

The reason I ask is that I’m a huge fan of having the Ceremonies at night when it’s dark out rather than during the day. To me a daylight Ceremony is rather anticlimactic – it’s just not the same, nor is it nearly as impressive.

One way to sort of “get around†this is to have the banquet first then after wards do the Ceremony later on when it’s dark out.

I live in northern New England so “dark†in the September time frame (when we have our Fall Ordeal) it’s generally dark around 7:30-ish. Our Spring Ordeal is done in May, so it’s quite a bit later before it gets dark enough.

Are there Lodges out there that do this – have the Ceremonies after the banquet so they can be done at night??

What are the logistics behind it?? How do you do it???

I realize that (I think) National policy as far the sequence of events dictate the ceremony is first then the banquet, but I’ve heard a lot of Lodges do it in reverse. Is National more or less a “guideline�??

Thanks!

Thanks - it's amazing how long it takes to translate what is seemingly a rather straightforward and simple text in English. Lenape doesn't quite work as easily as European languages do I was fortunate to be able to get help with it and glad I was able to do translations in both Unami dialects. Southern is easier, but not the dialect the OA borrowed its Lenape nomenclature from; it was Northern.     

@ Cchoat - yes, that's the one. We've started to use it for similar events - Ordeal weekends, Conclaves, Lodge Conferences, etc.

@@Hedgehog - It looks like you can attach files here, so...I've attached the document. Guess I'll have to see if it can be opened, etc.

OA Grace - Lenape 1.pdf

In 2012 there was a proposed "OA Grace" published by National on the idea that some of the more well known high adventure camps had their own particular mealtime grace (most everyone is familiar with the "Philmont Grace" for example).

Just curious if any Lodges or even just Chapters are using it at all??

The reason I ask is that, just for the heck of it, since it is an OA grace, I translated it into Lenape (yes, I'm a sadistic Linguist ) for possible use in our Lodge  - it seems that it's being used more and more at Ordeal Weekends, Conclaves and the like in my area (northern New England). I had never heard of it until just last NOAC.

Just curious if people are using it at all.

When my son did his Eagle CoH, we used some elements that were diffinately OA in his ceremony, including the presentaiton of an eagle feather (faux). He is part of our ceremonies and drum and dance team so it was very meaningful to him to include it. WIth the exception of the presnetation, unless one was in the OA, the OA specific elements would not be recognized as such.

Since then we have gotten a few requests for the script for the eagle feather presentation from other Arrowmen who have attained their Eagle rank.  

As others have perhaps mentioned - most Scouting around the world is coed; the US is one of the few countriesd that does NOT have coed Scouting. I think it should be done.

OMG....obviously the guy who protested wanted his "15 minutes of fame".

As a Ceremonies / Drum & Dance Advisor for my local Chapter, I must agree however, that when the OA is emulating American Indian dress and, to some degree, tradtions, when done wrong or bad, it does not paint the OA in a very good way.

On the other hand, it's simply a known fact and acknowledged even by some American Indian groups that in some cases, the regalia used in the OA (again, when properly researched and done right) is actually more historically correct and "authentic" that what is worn today by many American Indians in a given area.

Thanks for the input everyone! We will be carrying in the V/C flag and observing proper ettiquette. The Scout in question is indeed RC and not only is a parishioner but also quite active with the parish (alter server, CCD instructor, etc.).

I just wasn't sure as I was always under the impression that, like with political signs, etc. we should not appear to be endorsing a particular belief, ect.

Just out of curiosity, what is the take on same situation with Scout Sunday? Same applies??

Hmmm..okay - I agree to a point. I know that when we had done this a few years back at Scout SUnday, we did get some flac for it by both "hardcore" parishioners as well as sone non-Catholic attendees.

That said, the KoC will also be there - might just have one of their guys carry up the V/C flag with us - that may be the work-around to keep everyone happy.

Hello,

A sort of quick question (I hope)...

We are a Troop sponsered by a RC church. One of my Scouts is having his Eagle CoH at the church.

The parish is sort of insistant that the Troop, in addition to the US flag and Troop flag, also carry in the flag of Vatican City (a/k/a Papal flag).

My take on it is that, since the BSA is a non-denominational organization, we should not be in a position where it appears as though we are endorsing one particular religion. Carrying in the flac of V/C could be construed as the BSA being a Catholic based organization or that we are endorsing RC specifically.

What is the general rule (indeed, if any) on this???

What is your take on the matter - should we process in with the V/C flag along with the US and Troop flags or not. I say not, but I may stand corrected.

Thanks!!

BTW - his Eagle CoH is this weekend, 30.NOV

Yeah, I tend to agree about the flow - telling the "Uncas" story seems to be somewhat similar to the Pre-Ordeal in that each Principal tells a part of the whole, as it were. In the case of the new B-hood ceremony, it just doesn't seem to work as well.

Yeah, I kind of thought so as well - I realize the revision has been a work in progress for some time and it was passed to various lodges for additional input, but bottom line is that it was authored by one "pre-determined" individual. Though I do share his views on adding a great deal of symbolism to the ceremonies, I think the revised version should have been much more an "open concept" approach than what it was. Not necessarily saying you'd end up with a better ceremony, but considerably more options would have been brought to the table for consideration.

Cool - at least I'm not going blind! Thought it hasn't been there in quite some time!

Boy, that seems to be the overall feeling - I'm finding that very few people are 100% on board with it. I do like that the lines are more evenly distributed between the four Principals and I do appreciate and "get" the symbolism interwoven in the ceremony (but I'm pretty sure it will go right over the heads of about 90% of all Candidates). I think people were expecting and wanting a change, just not sure this was it. Would have been nice if the revision would have been more open to input - i.e. make it open to the general "OA public", if you will. Have a sort of 'contest' where people who are honestly serious about offering a revised ceremony would be able to submit a draft, from those drafts, maybe ten are chosen and those ten write and submit a final ceremony and one is chosen (or maybe pieces/parts of two or more are combined) for the official revised ceremony. I don't think that's the way it was done though. I suspect one designated writer and some tweaking of that version and it was a done deal, take it or leave it. Not to sound like an anarchist or stir up the pot, but I have to seriously wonder if some Lodges will simply opt not to do the new one (?).

Last time I saw an OA subforum was before the website got revamped (i.e. the old website) - I'm not on this all the time, but I'm guessing it's been at least a year (?).

Great - thanks!

Nope - I just get the four regions and NOAC as sub-forums; no "Safeguarded OA Discussions" .

I do not see a separate sub-forum when I'm logged in. Being logged in, BTW, I believe is the only way you cna post tot eh forum. I'll look for the title you indicate above; maybe I'm just missing the obvious, but I don't think it's there.

There's got to be more people out there who have seen the new B-hood Ceremony - what do you think about it??!! Curious to get more opinions/thoughts.

Am I missing it, or is there no sub-forum for OA members that is password protected like it used to be??

Yes - they should be easily understood by everyone but I don't believe this one will be. There are quite a number of nuances and parts that allude to Ordeal and Pre-Ordeal Ceremonies, but I think they will be lost on the average Arrowman.

You could, I suppose, incorporate it into a meeting and have the B-hoods break off and do an overview of the symbolism in the ceremonies or as a "class" topic for a Conclave or Lodge Conference, but no guaranty there that all B-hoods would attend.

Along with Miranthis's comment - I don't get why a whole "issue" seems to have developed about the knife in this ceremony! What is up with that??? We've been using a dull knife and fake blood for years and years - why now is it such a huge deal? Too many complaints (if so, about what?)?