MikeS

Yeah, you could do that rather than come up with a new name.

I agree - in order to get the symbolism, one has to be VERY familiar with the Legend as well as the symbolism of the Pre-Ordeal and Ordeal Ceremonies. May not be a huge issue for Ceremonialists, but the average Arrowman, I fear, isn't going to have a clue.

Funny, I just went through that section again - if the dude had a fire that big, doubtful his fingers would be all that cold; probably melt all the snow within a ten foot radius! Not to mention, no Indian would ever make a fire that big; that's a "white man's" thing - you would not waste the wood and you would not make a fire that could potentially be seen by an adversary (considering he is kind of on the border of two territories). Being that close to the "border", the last thing you'd probably want to burn is your only weapon (and hunting tool).

To be fair though, it could have actually been a small fire - in a world with no electricity, even a small fire would be spotted quite a distance away in the dark. If I remember my science correctly, in pitch dark, a human can detect the light of a single candle something like a mile away.

The other poetic license too is that Meukwa would have spoken Mohawk and Uncas Lenape - the two languages are in no way mutually intelligible. Since both were son's of chiefs, it's possible that they would have some familiarity with surrounding languages, but not enough to carry on the conversation they have.

Yeah, I know what you mean, Big Dave. I didn't want to go there - "poetic license", I suppose, but I think the script should have been released for a more wider review than what it was. Be nice if this one could be considered a "draft" and the "final copy" be released in say late January of next year - enough time for some additional input and revision and for people to learn it.

The Gong - you could bring back another Principal/helper, but it is at times a logistical nightmare to try and get just the four together at one time for even a scheduled Ceremony.....to add one more to the list...

If anyone is interested, I had written a short study on Lenape words in the Order - to quote from the introduction:

This short study examines the pronunciation of the Lenape names of the four Principals found in Order of the Arrow ceremonies as well as some of the other names and phrases found in Ceremonies. Over the almost one hundred years the Order has been in existence, very Anglicized pronunciations have more or less become the “standardâ€Â. This exercise offers the correct pronunciation with an insight as to how the incorrect versions originated.

I don't think I can attach it here as a file, but if anyone is interested, I'd be happy to forward it to you - just send me an e-mail or let me know your e-mail address.

I actually don't mind the opening or closing - even with this closing, Meteu can deliver his final lines from a more impressive location - we use a 20+ foot boulder (scaffolding and ladder on back to a platform) said boulder just happens to be somewhat in the shape on an arrowhead. When the others are going through their lines and snuffing out the candles, Meteu sneaks out of the "stage area" and reappears atop the rock to deliver his final invocation. I'm glad to see the new cermeony affords the same opportunity as it's quite effective!

I don't mind not doing the 'taps' - I can see the logic and reasoning behind it. I do like the way the new ceremony closes in that the Principals reveal what they represent in the Candidates.

I sometimes feel that it's really only the Ceremonialists who fully appreciate and understand the symbolism behind every part of the ceremonies. I almost think that the explanation section at the end should be required reading after the B-hood cermeony so people can gain a better understandning of the symbolism - something often missed altogether.

Should have clarified a bit above - the k' s (both 'k' 's ) in the Guide's name should not be pronounced as 'k' in "cot", but rather like the 'k' in "Scot", i.e. there is no puff of air AFTER the k's here, just one BEFORE the second one. For some it may be easier to substitutre 'g' for 'k'.

So, found the ceremony and went through it a few times. Very different, not quite what I was expecting, but all in all, not bad. I do like the fact that the symbolism is explained at the end; very helpful to performers. One area is not quite clear and that’s where the Principals (in each their respective turn) should move to “where all Candidates can see and hear them and where the fire lights their featuresâ€Â. I assume they simply move to a spot closer to the fire where they can still be seen by all the spectators – doesn’t seem to mater where exactly, or am I reading that wrong??

Two things that I’m really not too crazy about are – the name of the “adversary†and the pronunciation of the Principal’s names. Being a Linguist, perhaps I’m being overly picky, but one would think that in creating a new ceremony and supposedly analyzing the %$ out if it, you’d think they would have done the research and properly corrected the pronunciations and come up with a better name for the adversary.

I see where they are going with the adversary’s name and I understand and “get†the symbolism behind it, but what you end up with is a name that means absolutely nothing; it’s not a legitimate word. From the name, we can infer that he is supposed to be a Mohawk. “Mahakwa†does mean Mohawk (from mahkwa – “bearâ€Â), and “mehuk†does mean ‘blood’ (which is possibly a misspelling by Zeisberger for what is in Southern Unami “hmukw†– I suspect this Northern Unami form should be the same and indeed in his grammar he spells it “mhuk†which is probably how he heard ‘hmukwâ€Â). Though the symbolism is nice, the name as it’s reinvented has no meaning in and of itself. Too bad – I would have liked to have seen an actual Kanienkehaka (Mohawk) name.

The whole explanation of “Nutiket’s†name – no idea where to even begin with that one; you could write a paper on it! The reference the author(s) make in trying to offer an explanation is to two totally different words using two completely different orthographies (spelling systems); one Northern Unami (where all the OA words come from) and one Southern Unami (the modern spoken language) – suffice to say that in Lënape, the word noo-TEE-ket (which comes from the verb noo-TEE-kay) means “one who stays at homeâ€Â.

NOO-t’-ket (spelt nutëkèt in SU) on the other hand, means “guard†(“one who watches over†though is actually nutëmat – same ending as ‘nimat’).

The correct pronunciation of the Guard’s name is NOO-t’-ket – stress MUST fall on the first syllable here (though normally in Lenape it’s on the next to last – there’s a reason it has to be on the first syllable in this case has to do with assigning main stress on words in Lenape). The apostrophe here is the “schwa†sound. Take care to fully pronounce the last syllable to rhyme with “metâ€Â, don’t pronounce it with a schwa or ‘ih’ sound (i.e. it’s not NOO-t’-kit !!).

Again with properly assigning main stress in Lenape, the Chief’s name is properly pronounced aw-LOH-wawt saw-KEE-maw (all the ‘a’ sounds here are like the ‘aw in “saw†or “pawâ€Â).

Lastly, there is NO ‘ch’ (as in “cheeseâ€Â) sound in the Guide’s name! Without getting into details, his name is a bit tricky for speakers of English (as it was for Zeisberger’s German!). The best/easiest way t opronounce this (though it’s not quite right) is kee-KEEN-het. There should actually be a slight puff of air just before the second ‘k’ so kee-HHKEEN-het. If any of you speak Finnish this is the same as ‘h’ before ‘p, t’ and k†in Finnish (or Estonian as well).

OK – long enough post – just my 2 cents worth.

What is the link to the new ceremony script???!!!

Hello All,

Here's a little something different to add to your OA gatherings when it comes time for meals - the Philmont Grace.....in Lnape:

li mehmichink, li hahkwink,

li lehlexeokn, li kkuna,

li witiswakn k maehlana,

Kishelmienk, wanshi, Na n lekch.

Rough phonetic guide

EH-lee may-h-MEE-cheeng, EH-lee eh-HAWH-hkweeng,

EH-lee lay-h-lay-khay-OH-kahn, EH-lee keh-KOO-naw.

EH-lee wee-tee-s-WAW-kahn ok maw-ay-h-LAW-naw,

Kee-shay-l-MEE-ayng, waw-NIH-shee, naw n LAY-kech

The CAPS indicate main stress in a word, dashes separate syllables in a word, is a schwa sound. Only tricky words are hahkwink and lehlexeokn -with the first, you have to make sure you pronounce the 'h' before the 'k' and with the second, the Lnape 'x' is like the so-called "ach-Laut in German - or the 'ch' in Scottish "loch".

Works pretty neat at a Conclave or Lodge Conference.

The only word order changed is the last line - it's more "Oh Lord, we thank you, Amen", stylistically it works better in Lnape with this order instead of the usual "we thank you, Oh Lord, Amen."

I guess it really depends on the region your from and what local Nations or Tribes exist in your area as to what the "Native" reaction would be.

In my neck of the woods, Europeans have been interacting with the Native population since the late 1500's so there's been an awful lot of mixing of cultures and a lot of intermarrying so the "blond haired blue-eyed" Native is just as common as the dark, thick black-haired "Asian" sort of looking Natives elsewhere - depends on how much the locals have historically intereacted with one another.

The Abenaki community here in NH to me looks more French-Canadian than what one normally thinks of as "Native-looking". By the same token one does see the more stereo-typical appearing NA, but around here, it's really not the norm.

On another note, and perhaps should have a tread of its own....it strikes me kind of funny that you could have a group of young people of say German, Italian, French, and even Asian background who learn and perform Scottish Highland dancing, are all properly attired in traditional clothes, perhaps even have a few musicians amongst them who can also play the tunes correctly, and perform demonstrations, etc. and no one gives it a second thought, but if that same group were to learn NA dance and music and perform it, again, properly dressed and able to also play and sing the music, it's like it becomes an instant "problem/issue". Just kind of odd. Again, as long as it's properly researched and done correctly, I don't see any difference between the two examples above.

(This message has been edited by MikeS)

I think the experience of BSA24 is rather unfortunate - perhaps it is a "local thing". My experience is more on the lines of Tokala and emb021; i.e. very positive with help from local Native Peoples and Nations. Proper research is absolute key. There's nothing worse than seeing guys throwing on a ribbon shirt and leggings, breachclout, and whatever "accessories" the Chapter has, with obviously no clue to the hows and why of what they are doing.

Our Chapter concentrates specifically on northern New England (NH, VT, ME)and the Maritimes as we are located in NH. Our regalia is VERY northern New England i.e. there's no way you would mistake someone from being anywhere but, and it's all hand-made. There are no decorative designs that would be something an individual "earns the right to wear", so design is left up to the individual so long as it's proper Northern N/E.

We understand the whys and hows of what we are doing and do get a lot of help from local Nations. One thing that is very unique to our ceremonies team, is that we incoprporate Abenaki (NH's original language) into our ceremonies - not a ton, but enough to use as an educational tool as well (no matter how old you are, you'll know the meaning of a few words by the time you leave). The beginning part of our AOL/Crossover ceremony is in Abenaki first, then English. It does a good job of making people realize they are experienceing another culture.

I'm not saying we're perfect by any means, but I do think that proper research and understanding of a culture you're trying to emulate is paramount. Unfortunatley, we are stuck with those Chapters who have very little desire to learn and 'do it right' as it were and the result is just as one would expect - gives this whole aspect of the OA a horrible reputation.

As an aside, there are very few Native people in my neck of the woods who are not "part something else" in their ethnic background. Many Native people around here you'll find have French/English surnames. Many people of French Canadian background also have Native blood - it's nothing unusual here and it is not at all uncommon to find a 'blond haired blue eyed'individual who is just as Native as someone with darker features.

Of course, along with the above, particularly with D&D Presentations, it's not just getting it right but also being able to explain to your audience WHY it is that things are done this way - be able to answer typical questions like why do you just dance clockwise?, why do you wear such and such a thing, why are your legings not fringed, etc., etc. be familiar with the REASONS things are done not just that fact that that's just the way they're done!

Hello All,

First, I have to second Eagle 92s comments re remembering what was going on re NA history in the 1920s in our neighboring state of ME for example (and in the Maritimes), dancing and music amongst the Mikmaq went underground and did not emerge until about the late 1960s and even then it was done with some trepidation for quite a while not so much repression from the government as from the Church; NA music and dances were still frowned upon in Nova Scotia by the RC Church as late as the early 1970s! I was also told by a Passamaquoddy woman I spoke with in the late 1990s that speaking a Native language outside a reservation was still against the law in the state of ME!! Though I doubt its a law thats been enforced much since the early 1900s, Im not sure its ever been removed from the books. It is possible that the early days of the OA actually helped in preserving some of NA culture.

There are indeed the pan-Indian style powwows in this area, but powwow style music and dance is relatively new here to northern New England. Virtually nothing done at them (with the exception of some of the regalia worn) is/was traditional to this area!

There is however, a strong local tradition which still continues. This style of song and dance is very different to what most people are used to at powwows there are no high notes in the songs (the falsetto type voice one usually associates with powwow style songs), and the drum is not always the instrument of choice in this neck of the woods, the rattle and shaker are more commonly used for dance; the drum is used, but not nearly as frequently.

One of the things that is unique to our Drum & Dance Team (as well as Ceremonies Team I am the adult advisor for both) is that we do not do powwow style songs or dancing at all; we are committed to keeping it local, and its something we are proud to do (as far as I know, the only Chapter in our Lodge that does so). So, people are a little surprised not to see the full blown ginormous headdresses, bustles, ankle bells all the typical things one associates with Indian dancing they were never done here, hence we dont do it.

True, the songs and regalia may not be as showy as with the powwow tradition (as mentioned, we do not wear ankle bells for example simply because they were never traditionally worn here; they came in with the powwow scene), but these are the songs and dances people have been doing in this area since forever!

The city I live in was not founded by English Puritans/settlers (though they did indeed settle here), it was inhabited for about 10,000 years before any European knew it existed and this is what was/is done by these people and thats the feeling I like to try and convey in our performances and ceremonies; i.e. theyve been doing it like this here forever.

Being a Linguist and familiar with the local languages, I make a huge effort to incorporate them into our Ceremonies, particularly my home states original language when the Shaman/Medicine Man begins to tell his story in our Webelos AOL-Crossover Ceremony, he begins the story in Abenaki and then switches to English. At the beginning of the same Ceremony, no English is used the feeling Im trying to convey to the audience is that youre the visitor here to this culture and its been here for an extremely long time (and you just might feel a little out of place and thats the way it should be). I think it ads an extra dimension to the Ceremonies, almost sort of a Verfremdungseffekt in a way, where youre the outsider, so to speak, and get instantly immersed in a culture that you probably only know from stereotypes.

I want the audience to feel like they have just been plopped down in a local NA community as much as I possibly can though in our case, with the regalia we wear, said community would be from about 1750.

BTW absolutely nothing wrong with the powwow style or traditions! So long as whats presented is well researched and done correctly and with respect.

To that end, I have found that many local elders are more than happy to assist and instruct you about local songs and dances, you just have to ask nicely and remember a word of thanks no matter what they are able to provide (or not)

As an aside, being familiar with Lnape, I have to cringe when I hear Lnape OA terms/words pronounced I wish there was some way/means/method of teaching the correct pronunciation and even meanings of what people are saying (my pet peeve is Vigil Names a virtual how to of butchering a language), but thats a completely different story/direction 

Though I do have Penobscot ancestry (one on my ancestors was even a well known sagamore theres a Lodge in ME named for him), you have to go back about 300 years to get to it, so I do not consider myself NA per se, but I am aware that it is a part of my ethnic background and as such I strive to try and get it right to the point at times of perhaps being kind of anal about it (i.e. if it was never traditionally done here, dont expect to see us doing it, singing it, or wearing it!) but I think thats the idea; if youre going to portray a culture and its customs, at least make an effort!

I dont have any problem portraying a different culture, so long as its done right its done all the time with other ethnic cultures - imagine taking a trip to southern Germany and seeing firsthand authentic Bavarian folkdances and traditional dress and then take a look at some of the god-awful stereotypes you see at your local Oktoberfests here and you get what I mean about trying to avoid the stereotypes and doing it right (and before anyone say it yes, there are groups here that do a phenomenal job of authentic Bavarian folk dancing, but most I have seen have no clue). How many cloggers out there are actually of English descent or how many step dancers of Irish descent?

So, just my 2 kopeks worth bottom line is that I guess I sort of justify it by trying to immerse a spectator and introduce him/her to an as accurate portrayal of a culture that has existed in their own back yard for thousands of years (and to try and do my part in blowing away the stereotypes).

I have to second Eagle92's response, particularly numbers 1 and 2 and Eagle90's number 3 - way too open in terms of who gets elected. I suspect in some troops its almost automatic; as soon as you hit First Class and have done the camping requirements, you're automatically "elegible" as a Candidate. Definitely need to get back to the "creme de la creme" as it were!!

I do agree with the memorization of lines and putting life into the ceremonies, however, if a Ceremonial Team is relatively new, I have no problem with the "cheat sheets" on the back of a feather fan, shield, or whatever so long as said cheat sheets are not read from as a book (i.e. try not to make it too obvious).

Rules need to be much stricter with Ordeal - if you come to an Ordeal and you don't have the proper equipment, too bad, so sad, see you next Ordeal opportunity. If people in clans are talking (and it's not an emergency of some sort) - send them home! BUT....that would obviously need to be made crystal clear to both Candidate and parent(s), i.e. if rules are broken, expect a phone call to pick your son up.

The above paragraph said though, if just the creme de la creme were elected as Candidates, you probably would not have these issues to begin with.

In my neck of the woods we do have an OA day at summer camp, but it's just one day and really not enough about the OA is promoted. I like the idea of a separate campfire after normal 'taps'.

I do not have a problem with using the NA imagery, providing it's done correctly and with respect and adequate research into the culture you are depicting. Don't just throw on a pair of moccasins, leggings and a ribbon shirt and think you're 'good to go'.

It does need to be made into more of a service organization - we do a lot of service in my chapter, but I think it could be more involved. We're fortunate to have both a Cub scout resident camp as well as a Scout camp where I live - most of the time, den chiefs serve as 'help' for the Cub Scout packs during resident camp, but perhaps each pack should also be assigned an Arrowman to better assist teh packs and promote camping. They could also have one evening of a drum and dance demo. I'm sure there are hundreds of ideas on how to improve the service aspect, but I'm not sure that will happen until the "sash and dash" crown gets weeded out by going back to electing scouts who more than just meet a few 'technical requirements".

Just my quick 2d worth!

It's mainly watch, learn and practice (practice, practice and more practice!).

If your local Nation ahs a website, contact the current chief or educational director and ask - many times, people are only too happy to oblige in answering any questions you may have (at least that's been my experience). BTW - I am of Penobscot descent, and perhaps that's why I'm sort of a die hard traditionalist (i.e. trying to steeer clear of the powwow scene and go completely local), but I think it makes mor eof an impression when you can say to a group you're demontrating to that what they are seeing has been done in this very area for thousands of years!

I just recently did this with my chapter - we are NOT doing the usual powwow style stuff but rather adhereing strictly to the traditional dances of the extreme northeast where I'm from (Abenaki, Penobscot, Passamaquoddy-Malacite, and Mi'kmaq). Most of the songs we do would not be known outside of ME, NH, VT and the Maritimes - a few might be known in southern New England. So, for example, we don't do the Crow Hop - not native to our area (brought to the area with the powwow's in the 1920's-1930's). Our regalia is strictly very northern New England (i.e. virtually no head roaches, no Iroquois "gestowahs" and certainly no Plains "war bonnets"). We use rattles and not ankle bells (again, more associated with the powwows) and we do not use ribbon shirts (way too generic). If you have a local Nation or Nations, learn from them, see what they traditionally wear (outside of powwows), and learn some of the LOCAL dances.

In our lodge, we heald the elections in January and the Call/Tap-Out was at the Klondike in mid February.

Scouts were not told whether or not they were elected; they found out at the Call/Tap-Out. I think telling results behforehand defeats the entire purpose of the Call/Tap-Out.

About midway through the ceremony, Chief called out the names, Candidates came forward and were met by Medicine Man who stared into their eyes, looksed them up and down and then administered a firm, "tap" on the upper right arm (while his hand was in the Scout Sign so it would not be too hard a tap). The Candidate was then taken by the arm and told stearnly (in Abenaki) to "Follow me!" where he was led to a spot where all the Candidates were lined up. Once there, the was told (again stearnly and in Abenaki) to "Stand here!".

In speaking to a few of the Candidates afterwards, the thought of any "abuse, hazing, etc.: did not even enter into their minds. It did leave a meaningful impression on them and the Call/Tap-Out was very well received by "powers that be" in the Lodge.

It was only one tap as you're per the proper "progression", you're not supposed to use the same sequence of tapping as in the Ordeal.

Klondike was not the best time to have it - I would have much prefer a Fall Camporee as it would allow for a more options (there's only so much you can do in New England in mid February with 3 feet of snow on the ground )

Dziękuje bardzo!!

Someone even suggested e-bay, but I found nothing there.

Hello all,

Just curious if anyone might know if many of the interpreter strips have been discontinued?? I've been searching for one for Polish for quite some time and have been unable to find one. I don't think even National has it.

Are these things available anywhere??

Thanks!

I agree with Knight in that it is the meaning which must be taken to heart, however, I must respectfully disagree with the comment that the pronunciation is irrelevant - if the OA (or anybody for that matter) borrows a word from another culture, at least do them the respect of at least attempting to get the pronunciation correct; in this case here, it's not a difficult one (fortunatly it's a much shorter word in Lnape than its English translation ).

Yeah, I have some of different sizes and have to say, I much prefer the larger ones - again, thinking of one of the things it's meant to be used for, i.e. a tool (whether for first Aid or otherwise).

In our Troop we use the Kente cloth neckers and in keeping somewhat with tradition of Kente cloth, the necker must be earned by doing ten (10) hours of community service.

I do have a necker from my ancestral homeland of Poland - I thought for sure it would be a larger "older style" necker, but was a little shocked to find out when I got it that it's actually a little smaller than many "standard" neckers here. I would have thought the European version was more in line with our older styles - guess not!

BTW - the problem with the one from Poland is that it is, as you might expect, half white and half red, so many people thought it was some sort of OA necker

Old Grey Eagle and all,

Yep - sounds like the same reference my son found. I too wear it over the collar (not turned in) and, (GASP), the collar is buttoned (BLASPHAMY!!! I know, I know).

In any event, I have been told it was the "tradition" (I suspect perhaps the troop's tradition adopted before my arrival) to wear it over the collar (not turned in) - I think, unless you have a really long neckerchief, it looks very unkempt and not very neat, but...who am I to break the tradition? Oh yeah, I'm the SM, time for a review at the next Committeee Meeting I think some of the kids in the troop wear it under the collar anyway - about half and half.

DWS - thanks for the response - I was in Scouting about that time as well (Cub Scouts), but do not seem to recall the collarless shirts - it does indeed sound like the possible origin of that practice.

My son actually looked it up yesterday evening and apparenlty the official guide (not sure where he got it from, I'd have to check) does say that if worn oover the collar, the collar is to be tucked/turned in.

Hmmmm..I'll have to check.

Hello all,

I was hoping to get some thoughts on what the "official" way to wear the Boy Scout neckerchief is - I have been told it can be done two ways; either under the collar as in Cub Scouts or over the collar (however, I think over the collar requires the collar to be "turned in", i.e. tucked into the neck of the shirt).

I my troop they are worn, supposedly in the "traditional" manner, of over the collar (collar NOT turned/tucked into the shirt).

Personally, I think it looks horrible and I think we should wear them under the collar, but just wondering what the "official rule" is regarding the Boy Scout neckerchief.

I've also been told it is up to the troop as to how it's worn , as along as everyone is consistant.

Is there some sort of tradition of wearing it over the collar?? I can see it for maybe some of the very old style nerckerchief that were very long and somewhat large, but the newer smaller ones?? We wear the "Kente cloth" neckerchiefs in our troop -if any of you have these, you know it's a very thick, stiff material and does not roll very easily.

Any input would be most welcomed.

Thanks!

Sorry, I should have added that modern Southern Unami uses a VERY nice, precise and easy to understand orthography - it much more clearly represents the sounds of the language.

This is the spelling I used at the beginning of my previous post.