mikeb

Hi SWScouter,

You sound like you've run into this dilemma before, have you? Can you share where the hard and fast rule regarding this scenario can be found in official print? One can certainly extrapolate the same conclusion from reading the base requirements for candidates but I'd be interested in seeing how they break the bad news in print.

OK, I was looking through the eligibility requirements to refresh my memory for the coming elections and I came across something that didn't seem to be covered and I was wondering if anyone has had this situation and how it was handled. The rule is all members under the age of 21 are regarded as youth and the requirements are 1st class and 15 days of camping to be elected. So what do you do if a young man of 18 joins as say an asst SM and in a year has his 15 camp days but of course can't earn rank? Per the rules he can't be considered under the adult requirements until he's 21 so what do you do?

While 17 year olds going into a huge funk and dragging their feet until the last minute to finish up their eagle is not uncommon in the least this business of getting a time extension is somewhat different. Regardless of his recent behavior I think if he's been a good Scout for the last 4-5 years you should give him your support and get him signed off. It's a win, really. When he gets a little older and his mind clears he'll be eternally grateful for the help you give today.

Incredible.

First you have me "stirring the pot."

Now you have me "challenging the Scoutmaster."

What's next? Maybe you have me fistfight the entire troop committee?

I'm not sure what is driving you to put such a huge negative spin on my very simple situation but I wish you would stop.

If any person in Scouting (regardless of their BSA experience) doesn't understand why something is the way it is they have every right to ask a few friendly questions. If the answer is none of that persons business he will be told so (again in a friendly way) and that is that.

No stirring.

No challenging.

No fisticuffs.

At least that's been my experience. But then I'm a friendly person.

In this situation I have reasoned that regardless of the result there will be nothing but hurt feelings for the young man involved. So as I stated previously my pursuit of this will be limited to an innocuous question or two.

Which oddly enough is what you say you would do if this were your son.

Wow, that's a really harsh letter. But since you asked...

I've been involved in Scouting in some varying degree since I became a Cub in 1970. I've earned my AOL, Eagle, been inducted in the OA, and have held the Vigil honor dear for over 20 years. I've held the positions of PL, SPL, JASM, and OA chapter chief. I've been an ASM, DL, WDL, MC for several troops and packs, OA Ceremonies advisor, and just plain parent who hangs out at troop meetings and drives a bunch of excited scouts to camping trips. I've been to more Unit, District, Council, and National events than you can shake a stick at. I've also had more training than the law should allow.

Most of all I'm just a friendly guy who knows that he doesn't know everything and would never dream of coming off as the OA police or some such thing.

Thus I came here for a little info as I haven't been active in the OA in a serious way since my youth and in a non-serious way since my oldest left scouting a half dozen years ago.

I haven't "stirred any pots."

I haven't spoken with anyone in the troop regarding this other than the initial conversation with the young man in question.

I believe the folks in the troop do a GREAT job and know what they are doing, otherwise I wouldn't have joined this unit.

The truth most likely is that this young man failed to meet one of the requirements and a few very-friendly-non-challenging questions will reveal as much.

If it happens to be a mistake and the person responsible for excluding him learns from this as I did then we all learn something that hopefully will never happen in this unit again.

Heck it might even take me months to find the magic moment to ask a few questions, I may never do it.

In fact the more I think about the grief it could bring to this young man to know he could have been elected (if that's the case,) the more I think I should just leave this alone.

BTW, how would you feel if it were your son?

Ok, so the no re-vote rule tells me I shouldn't make a big deal out of this regardless of what I find out since it would most likely end up only causing hurt feelings and not helping this boys situation at all. There's always next year. Anybody ever see an 18 year old ASM standing with a bunch of 13 year old scouts at election time? Doesn't sound very pleasant.

The young man in question is a Life scout on the edge of earning Eagle so I would guess he's met the camping requirement. I think I'm going to discreetly ask a few more questions to the young man and some of the Troop leaders. Has anyone ever heard of a Troop having a re-vote? What's the rule on this?

My youngest son and I crossed over into a troop in March of this year. I was chatting with a scout (age 17) in the troop about the OA election that had taken place a few months back and he told me he wasn't allowed to be elected because he had left the troop for a year or so and had not been back in Scouting for quite 2 years yet. Is this a new rule, an old rule I have never heard of, or a bad case of someone making up their own rule? I have looked at everything I can find in print and can find no reference to this "two year" rule, and I'm worried that this young man has been robbed of the possibility of being elected. What do you all think?

Hi Steve,

I'd suggest you start attending Roundtable. The folks there have likely seen and done it all so they can offer excellent advice, plus you'll get all kinds of great info and help on the months activity.

"The purpose of the AOL is to get the boy to move to Boy Scouting."

In my opinion that's one of Cub Scoutings "dirty secrets." Instead of creating an award that brings together all the fine things a Cub has worked on they go for a crappy brainwash/recruitment badge. I guess Cub Scouting will always be Boy Scoutings red-headed step brother.

Excellent information all, I'm going to share the uniform inspection sheet with the trainer (who also runs the Webelos roundtable.)

I was sitting in a Webelo Den Leader training class a few weeks back and the trainer stated that the AOL can be earned by a Webelo but not worn until he has crossed over into Boy Scouts. This makes no sense to me, and I'm wondering if someone has the official word from a BSA document that I can reference.

Hey NeilLup, Red Feather got it. Read his post and think "that's what mikeb was trying to say."

I get the impression you may think that I am some type of hyper-competetive person. Let me assure you that is far from the case. I just feel that intentionally avoiding competition in our Scout activities is a bad idea.

I would also like to proclaim to the world that I for one am not man enough to participate in a "champ-nit" contest. I think that's one BSA idea better left in the past.

meanpc, your sense of the subtle (or maybe not) sarchasm in my post was on target. It's a bad habit of mine I need to work on. I guess I'm going to have to continue accepting "trophies" until I become a nicer person. As for the money-per-boy thing, to use a really bad catch phrase, I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on it.

Hey meanpc, if I'm hurting your feelings you can just say "hey mikeb, you're hurting my feelings." You don't have to scour the internet for some some silly picture in an attempt at ridiculing me. Of course you can if you want but you probably won't get the "ooh that hurt" response you seem to be looking for.

With that said let's chat about your post.

"I remember when I was a kid, we all noticed what color the ribbon was. It wasn't just a different color, we all wanted the blue one."

That's great, I remember some events I attended were like that also. There were also some events that had something a little more special for the guys who won.

"Competition is great, but what's wrong with most of the reward being the event itself? The winners get their name announced as the winner and a different color ribbon. They also got the thrill of winning the event."

That's all fine, and I never said every event had to have huge trophys handed out by beautiful women. I just think that something special for the winner adds to the excitement of the event.

"I guess a large trophy might be necessary for some of the parents living vicariously, but the kids would be just fine with the awards I mentioned."

I suspect that's a thinly veiled slam, but let's pretend it's not. First, who said anything about a large trophy? We get those cheesy little trophys, cheap plastic medals, or the doo-dads that go around your neck. They don't cost but a couple of dollars, and the kids love them.

"Extra recognition, winning a different award, and the winning experience. Your 'winners should get nothing extra' pseudo-quote is incorrect. Change the quote to 'the unit should not spend extra money on the winners' then we can argue that point."

O.K. let's argue that point. Why shouldn't the unit be spending an extra couple bucks on winners? What is it that makes it "not right"? Have you ever asked the boys or parents for their opinion on this? Is everything financial in your unit really calculated out so no boy gets one penny more spent on him than the others?

'Mike, I really think you need to go back and read my post - you seem to not have gotten the point I was making. You are really hung up on the "big trophy" aspect, and didn't let the rest of my posts sink in."

I read your post again, and will say AGAIN that I agree with the bulk of it. But regarding your comments on award giving, it still seems to me that your point is equal reward for different effort. I reread my post too, and couldn't find mention of "trophy" in it anywhere. So it seems the "big trophy" hang up is all yours.

It's because there are no BSA laser-rangemasters (just kidding).

It's probably one of those touchy-feely PC rules based on the "violence" of the activity, which is kind of ironic as "Scouts" was founded in part on activities related to B-P's man-hunting-man scouting skills.

This seems like the obvious answer, and I'm sure you've thought of it but have you checked eBay? Everything scouting related seems to appear given some time.

ozemu, you're hardly alone in the "long-post club", so no apologies necessary.

I think we can all agree that taking competition to its extreme is undesireable, nobody likes the whole "in your face" routine. Of course many things when taken to their extreme fall into that boat. Reading your post about the youth you work with and the extreme competition they display I got the impression that their instinct to compete came about as a natural result of their situation. We've all seen the movies of birds in a nest, pups in a pack, etc. and how they compete with each other for food and position. To me it seems to be a natural instinct, and while your situation may be an exception, I don't understand why one would go out of his way to stifle it under normal circumstances. I imagine a great many of the worlds greatest achievements/advances would never have come to pass had it not been for competition. Shall I remove my son from that realm because of the possible pitfalls of competition?

You may be right about the WOSM adopting a non-competetive stance at some point in the past. I did some searching (internet based of course) and was unable to find anything. I would be disapointed but not surprised to find that is the case, as it would go along other PC things that have been adopted over the years.

meanpc, I agree with the bulk of your post, but your comment regarding seeing no reason to spend more money on the recognition that the winner of an event gets receives a failing grade from me. If you were the superstar at work and found you received the same raise as the worst performer (but got your check in a different colored envelope) how would you feel? It seems so much of the "winners should get nothing extra" attitude here is being looked at from the position of non-winner. Is it ok to slight the winner to "protect" the non-winner? Does the non-winner need to be "protected?" Are we cheating them out of a valuable life-lesson by "protecting" them?

Two thoughts for your amusement:

Not a competition in the strict sense, but what about Eagle Scouts? I suppose Eagle Scouts should stop getting fancy medals. They are making the tenderfoots feel inferior.

In the news today the Boy Scouts of America announced that to align the Cub Scout group with their new no-competition policy they are changing their motto from "Do Your Best", to "Do What You Can." When asked for a comment The National Office stated "we don't want anyones feelings to get hurt."

Kind of silly, isn't it?

While that handbook looks to be in better condition than most I think it's still overpriced by at least $500. I would certainly want to see more pictures before commiting that much money. These auctions are more normally priced:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13887&item=3911555768&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=13887&item=3910957985&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

It's always interesting how some people come into the Scouting program and immediately apply their ideals and values onto the program regardless of policies and traditions that have endured for nearly 100 years. This is one of those cases. A little internet search of B-P revealed he held competitions at his first summer camp for boys on Brownsea Island in 1907. No one possessing even a litle historical knowledge of the Scouting program would deny that competition has ALWAYS walked hand-in-hand with the Scouting movement. It's worked well for nearly 100 years. Why anyone would come into the program and claim they know better than 100 years of Scouts and Scouters is beyond me.

I hope I didn't wander too far off topic - I guess I should have just said my vote is competition=healthy.

I was afraid I was misspelling it too. I searched around, and on the Nat'l OA site there's a definitions list that's pass-worded with a phrase from the Brotherhood ceremony. If you're BH or big V and can't remember how to spell the admonition (like me) look there.

Hi MollieDuke,

In a past life I collected anything BSA related, council shoulder patches included. The most fun came from the things already mentioned, i.e. searching out council offices while traveling, making trades via mail and at scout events all the while getting to know the people you are trading with, etc. Collecting CSP's is IMHO the best patch for beginning collectors, but there's some things he should know (if he doesn't already.)

Every council that issues CSP's has a regular issue that is easy to obtain. Collecting this patch is perfect for the young collector. Typically that involves an easy 1:1 trade and both parties walk away feeling good.

In addition to the standard CSP, many councils are issuing special CSP's for things like anniversaries, FOS contributions, special events, etc., etc., etc., etc, etc. Get the picture? Unless you have unlimited funds, unlimited time, and in many cases "special" connections you can never hope to have a complete collection of these type CSP's.

If your son is interested in completing a "set," encourage him to collect the standard issue CSP's. It's been a while since I've counted, but I think there are some 400-500 different councils issuing one. If by some miracle (seriously) he completes such a set he can then branch into older CSP's and even those from defunct councils.

My last suggestion is that you do have some agreement that he won't miss out on regular activities at scouting events because of "patch trading fever." It's easy to catch and can be rather consuming.

I guess I would respond with a "are you sure?" kind of approach. Maybe the person was confusing the Arrow of Light with the Tenderfoot rank. Maybe the troop did some work with the den and has worked it out so they can come in already having earned the "scout" rank. I can't comment on the legality of that or anything else they may have done, but many units don't seem overly concerned with some of the rules. I would be interested in hearing the poop if something of that nature did occur, please keep us posted.

Boys can be cruel... It can be hard being in the less than popular club, trust me I know.

Why is it so important to not have an "outcast" patrol? I think those boys have a better chance for leadership opportunities, real friendship, and equal footing there than in a "lottery" patrol.

If you have 5-6 buddies, don't stick unwanted boys into their patrol (yes, it's their patrol) just to obtain the magical perfect patrol number. Seal that patrol and start a new one.

If you have a couple of "left overs," put them in with the patrol that is the most mature. Make sure it's understood it's only a temporary measure until more new guys join - then tell them to do some recruiting!

Why is the PLC assigning scouts to patrols? Why aren't these new Scouts made into a patrol of their own with a Troop Guide helping them? If you have existing patrols that need members perhaps several near-aged patrols should merge. At the very least it seems a Scout should have a voice in what patrol he is put in. I think we can all agree that a boy forced into a patrol he doesn't want to be in is a bad start.

I recently received a very nice looking Citizen watch for my 10th anniversary with my employer. What I have discovered about this $150 watch is that while it looks very business appropriate, it isn't very "Scouting worthy." My biggest gripe is that it has no back-light. How am I supposed to check what time it is in my dark tent? Please don't suggest I fumble with a flashlight. Also, every time a month isn't 31 days I have to adjust the date. I'm going back to my $25 Timex Ironman, it never let me down on a dark and stormy camping trip.