BadenP

jp and qwasze, You both still don't get it, the OA has NOTHING to offer or attract Venturers male or female. OA was meant for a specific purpose in the Boy Scout program only. I can assure you that none of the female Venturers in our council have even a slight desire to join the OA. You guys are way off base thinking it has anything to offer Venturing. So you boys go on playing Indian as the OA continues to diminish nationwide and lodges continue to fold as interest in the OA by all scouts continues to rapidly diminish each year. Including Venturing is NOT going to save it.

As others have pointed out the Jehovah Witnesses FORBID their members from joining boy scouts period. Allowing him to continue will result in him being asked to leave his faith tradition so you are playing fast and loose with his and his families religious beliefs and status in their tradition. Unless the parents tell you they are leaving the JW's you allowing this to continue is playing with fire and is totally irresponsible.

NJ I am good friends with several JW elders and they verified what I said is true if the boy continues in the scouts he will be asked to leave his faith tradition. If the SM continues on the current path the boy and his parents will be asked to leave their faith tradition. Sad but true the SM needs to act more responsibly in this case find out the parents intentions regarding their faith then act accordingly. Look up the JW website for yourself to see what they do and do not allow and why the BSA is NOT a good fit for their boys.

 

I think the point you all are missing is that the OA is a program centered around the Boy Scouts and NOT Venturing. With a crew of 85 youth at my church their interests lie in other areas, not dressing up like Indians. None of the girls or guys in our councils Venturing crews have expressed even the slightest interest in the OA. The lodge here is struggling and has been for over a decade it is poorly organized and run. Like many lodges after the Ordeal members seem to disappear, never to be seen again. In my opinion you guys should let sleeping dogs lie and not try to drag Venturing into a program that was not developed for them.

 

 

No your Missing the Point. Order of the Arrow was started to keep the Older Youth involved in scouting. To Give scouts who at the time had reached the Highest Rank Time (First Class Scout) something to do. To Offer Opportunity to socialize and Serve at the Same time.

 

 

You would make all Youths suffer based on Your poor Lodge ? I see Oa as a Whole folding because of Lack of Participation unless they start Doing stuff besides requiring Membership to WORK WORK WORK. Lodges that survive and Thrive have Fellowships..be it Movie Nights, Pizza Parties, Camping Trips, and other social Events.

 

There is More to OA EVENTS than just dressing up as "INDIANS". Last SR2-3N Conclave we Had Tug-a-war, Dodge Ball, Archery, Rifle Shooting, Even shot off a Cannon. We had Banana Split Eating Contest, We had someone Bring out a Collection of King Snakes, We carved a Totem to be placed at the Camp. Yes the was a Pow Wow for the Dancers, however the was a Ice Cream social at the same time for the NonDancers. Everyone was not forced to participate in the Pow Wow. Nor was everyone forced to take part in the Ceremonies competition.

 

Maybe we need to Organize a National Camping Society inside scouting for those who like to Camp and Not Dress Like Indians

or a National BBQ Society in side for Scouting for those who like to BBQ instead of Dressing Like Indians

or a Zoological Society for those who Like Animals instead of Dressing like Indians

or a Civil War society for scouts who want to Dress like Soldiers instead

 

or we could continue with just one Honor Society, adapt and allow the Youths to participate and Socialize. Embrace the Membership and Welcome New Membership with Fellowship, not just Hard Labor all the Time.

 

National OA is always considering closing poor Lodges..there is a Reason Lodges Fail, just ask Membership who have stopped coming why they did. The biggest Reason BOREDOM

jp

 

You really have it wrong, yes the OA was created to keep older boys in scouts but it did NOT work. OA has failed miserably nationwide in retention of scouts and if a survey was done nationwide you would find that less than 25% of the membership participate after their first year, that is a dismal failure by any measure. The OA just does not have the appeal it once did and except for a handful of OA zealots like yourself most lodges are struggling to survive these days. Besides poor troop programs poorly run lodge programs have headed the OA on the path to extinction which is very close to becoming reality.

This is yet another dilemma boy scouting is facing today, actually learning the skills and earning the MB's and rank badges has become go as fast as possible and using minimum effort get as many badges as possible and the final prize of Eagle by 14 and in the process learning very little, retaining virtually nothing, and having a substandard scouting experience. Reasons for much of this are lazy leaders, incompetent MB counselors, poor programs, and council/National pushing easier and simpler requirements. IMO scouting today for many boys is unchallenging, boring , and not much fun because of poorly run programs. You want boys to join scouts then make it really challenging for them, make them really earn those badges while having fun in the process instead of pandering to boys who really do not want to be or should be in scouts along with their helicopter parents.

As others have pointed out the Jehovah Witnesses FORBID their members from joining boy scouts period. Allowing him to continue will result in him being asked to leave his faith tradition so you are playing fast and loose with his and his families religious beliefs and status in their tradition. Unless the parents tell you they are leaving the JW's you allowing this to continue is playing with fire and is totally irresponsible.

I think the point you all are missing is that the OA is a program centered around the Boy Scouts and NOT Venturing. With a crew of 85 youth at my church their interests lie in other areas, not dressing up like Indians. None of the girls or guys in our councils Venturing crews have expressed even the slightest interest in the OA. The lodge here is struggling and has been for over a decade it is poorly organized and run. Like many lodges after the Ordeal members seem to disappear, never to be seen again. In my opinion you guys should let sleeping dogs lie and not try to drag Venturing into a program that was not developed for them.

Owning one may only mean there is one in the house; maybe left there by previous generations. Like any book, it is almost useless unless actually read, other than for a door-stop or some such thing.

Sorry Barry but Beavah is correct in his assessment. Catholics use a variety of prayer books and catechisms and rarely use the Bible in their worship and in religious classes. Many of these books have conflicts with what the Bible says and many Christians view the Bible from a contextual instead of a literal basis. So who is right and who is wrong? Do you have to believe in EVERYTHING written in the Bible literally to be a true Christian?

Being an Eagle Scout is way overrated in the scouting community, the newer simplified requirements have made it much easier to obtain than in the past. The truth is obtaining 2nd, 1st Class, Star and Life are equally great achievements in scouting. In my experience many scouts who obtain Eagle quickly disappear from their troop never to be heard from again. Realistically the Eagle of today is little more than just another step in the scouting journey, it is not a bar or an ultimate symbol of success and those who still think it is need to stop living in their scouting bubble from the 60's and 70's and see it for what it is in todays scouting program.

Actually, I believe trade mark law requires the BSA (or any other trade mark holder) to take aggressive action or loose it's trade mark. The BSA doesn't really have a choice here.

Rick You can not trademark any word that is in common usage." scouts" is such a word used in the military, outdoor groups, etc. It is not a word exclusive to the BSA so they can take it to court but they will lose and look foolish in the process. The last thing the BSA needs is more bad press. I agree that Hacker scouts is a stupid name for that group to pick.

SR540 It is always an honor to get a mentor pin from a scout who holds you in high esteem. I would rather wear the five I have received over the years than any training awards I have, including WoodBadge. Congrats

BSA has to protect the brand or will lose it. Simple fact of life.

I am sure that the term "scouts" legally is not and can not be trademarked as it is a common term used in many other areas. The BSA has NO legal ground here to begin with but the lawyers will hash it out and they will be the only winners.

Chill out, besides, how do you know that the new awards will be a train wreck? You're just speculating, all we know about them is the concept and the format.

Right now the only thing that is a standard in the whole Venturing program is the award system, they are 1. Trying to reorganize part of the award system so that Venturers might actually earn the awards. 2. They trying to unify Venturers by at least having them wear the same Class A uniform, Venturers can design all the Class B's they want.

From your first comment above I thought that you were saying that Venturers in your crew didn't like the Bronze awards, and by the way, the Bronze in Sports is required for Quest, and the Bronze in Religious Life is required for TRUST, and the Outdoor Bronze is completely finished automatically if the Ranger award is earned.

I might not have earned any of these awards, but I know a lot more about them than pretty much any Venturer. Just like I know more about the Hornaday awards than the majority of Boy Scouts. I've done my research.

"he is a bit of a fanatic about Venturing"

Well, considering fanatic means "filled with "great energy or enthusiasm in pursuit of a cause or an objective," " I'd have to agree with you, I'll take that as a complement.

My membership might not be official, but I already know which crew I'm going to join and what I plan on focusing on. I like to know exactly what I'm getting into before I join, hence my knowledge regarding the awards.

 

441 Since you are just a 15 kid you still have a lot to learn about the politics of scouting and how most changes from National to the scouting programs over the years have not been to its benefit. I have been in scouting for 30+ years and seen it all, you still have a lot you need to learn and experience before you pass judgment. Get into a well run and organized crew so you can see firsthand what Venturing is all about.

It's sad that a lot of Venturers don't want to earn the awards. Who wouldn't like to have a nice shiny medal hanging on their uniform? Apparently, a lot of Venturers don't.

I guess most Boy Scouts are so tired of working on rank requirements that by the time they go to Venturing they just don't care about them anymore. Of course, ranks are, to an extent, required in the Boy Scouts. Comparing percentages between Boy Scout ranks and Venturing awards isn't really fair, they should be comparing percentages of the Boy Scout Hornaday and National Outdoor awards with the Venturing awards.

441 I see your buying the National BS on their revamping Venturing which I have no doubt after almost 15 years in Venturing will be a disaster for the program. Second a Venturer though not required to get the Bronze in Outdoors as a prerequisite for Ranger, the Bronze in Sports for Quest, and a Bronze in Religious Life for Trust each Bronze completes at least half of the requirements for those awards so MOST Venturers will do the Bronze to see if the advanced award is something they want to commit to. Your comments on Bronze proves your unfamiliarity with Venturing as a whole so your conclusions are false and misleading. Try reading a Venturing handbook sometime so you will know what you are talking about for a change. instead of just blowing smoke like you usually do.

Talking with my SE this afternoon it really seems that National is hell-bent to cripple Venturing and the other scout programs as well. First there will now be one scout oath and law that will apply to all scouting programs, second the new venturing awards will be more like the boy scout belt loop awards of old, fast and easy to get with no real learned skills involved, and the list goes on. I told my SE that my crew will not be changing ANYTHING in our program that has significantly grown and prospered for over a decade now, in spite of what National puts out for Venturing unless the new awards program fits into the current Venturing model we will not use it at all and instead will have our own award system. My SE is in full agreement with us, mainly because he doesn't want to lose a crew of 85 youth and 30 adults (who make up over 50% of the council trainers). The SE has also agreed to send a letter along with our crew associate advisors and myself five page letter outlining how and why our crew is prospering while so many others are not, explaining why he feels Nationals Venturing plan is heading in the wrong direction. Our adult le

If OA is a Boy Scout program, why would Venturing even be involved? Same for the leadership of the Cub Scout program. Do they wear the lodge flap on their DL uniform?

I agree the OA is and should remain a Boy Scout program only. None of our crew is even remotely interested in getting involved with the OA.

It's sad that a lot of Venturers don't want to earn the awards. Who wouldn't like to have a nice shiny medal hanging on their uniform? Apparently, a lot of Venturers don't.

I guess most Boy Scouts are so tired of working on rank requirements that by the time they go to Venturing they just don't care about them anymore. Of course, ranks are, to an extent, required in the Boy Scouts. Comparing percentages between Boy Scout ranks and Venturing awards isn't really fair, they should be comparing percentages of the Boy Scout Hornaday and National Outdoor awards with the Venturing awards.

441, Its not that Venturers don't want to earn awards but they want to choose areas they are interested in and not mandated by National. For example in our crew the Silver, Ranger , and Quest awards are very popular and to get there most get the Bronze award as a prerequisite to those awards. Most of our crew(3/4) have earned multiple awards. I am afraid the new awards created by National will be oversimplified, boring , and not require any new skill learning. It seems that every time National gets directly involved in Venturing the results are usually a disaster.

With the so called Venturing changes coming from National in 2014 and their total past incompetence in even understanding what Venturing is supposed to be about I have NO doubt this will severely impact all those crews struggling, as well as turn off any new teens looking at Venturing. IMO Brock is as big a tool as Mazzuca in turning a blind eye for 15 years at Venturing and now thinking those incompetent desk jockeys at National can turn it around, what a joke, but that is par for anything National does.

I have to agree with Eagle 441 the OA is for and should only be for boy scouts, Venturing is not a good fit for any lodge, except maybe for those few crews that are run just like a boy scout troop and not a crew. Venturing has its own unique emphasis and trajectory and that's the way it should be. Since National has set into motion a whole new program for next year( see the Venturing being killed by National thread) who knows what is going to happen.

There is the link regarding the new rank/recognition system: http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/...ouncement.aspx

Sorry for the disappointment, BadenP.

Ventures, Venturing, Venturers, really, who cares? They're all the same.

Eagle, They really don't give any real details about the so called rank system, but coming from National it will be a totally thrown together program without any real substance. The REAL reason that Venturing has lost membership is a total lack of commitment and support by National to the crews in the field. Venturing has always been treated like the bastard child of scouting and the loss of members just verifies that fact. In my council we have all our crews at top performance because we took the bull by the horns and developed our own system and training that has made ALL the crews in our council successful and growing without the help of council or National.

 

Qwasze- I think you have been drinking too much of the Kool Aid that National shoves out to the volunteers. You may have noticed that National takes NO responsibility for screwing up Venturing like they have since 1998. Venturing is not what needs to change, it is those pencil pushing desk jockeys at National who know squat about scouting that need to go starting with Brock and his cronies,.

They are taking away the uniqueness of all branches of scouting by giving them all the same sign, salute, Oath, and Law, but what they are thinking is that they want to unify all branches of scouting. Nevermind the fact that Ventures don't want to be unified with Boy Scouts or any other branch of scouts for that matter. I don't know about any of you, but when I join Ventures in the near future(about 6 months probably) I will encourage my crew to stand by the Venture Sign, Salute, and Oath, despite what National says. BTW, have you heard that they are doing away with the Bronze, Gold, and Silver Awards in favor of a new rank system?

Eagle

First of all you need to get the terminology straight, it is Venturing and Venturers. There will be no ranks since Venturing is not a rank based program and never has been because it is coed and based on individual interests and achievements. Ranks are for younger scouts Venturing if done right is for older teens who want to learn some unique skills in a variety of fields. If National tries to introduce a ranking system to Venturing it will just further destroy an already good program for the older teens.

Eagle92, The BSA is not part of the Netherlands scouting association last I checked so your rebuttal is irrelevant. Neckers in all reality are a obsolete scouting artifact of the past that really serves no real purpose this day and age. Those who want to wear them that's fine but for an unofficial scouting event lets put your nostalgia behind you and concentrate on your units program which is where our efforts should be focused. World Neckerchief Day? time for a reality check.

Cambridge, Britain is known for loving to hold on to outdated and irrelevant customs, royalty and monarchy which wind up costing your country millions of pounds every year. As far as neckers are concerned in scouting they are a outdated symbol and I seriously doubt that it was the kids who were upset about getting rid of them as opposed to the adult leaders wanting to hold onto the scouting of their youth.

TSS Chris, If there is a way for National to cause problems with your units charter they seem to find many ways to screw up the process. Our crew adult leaders do all Venturing Leader Training for the council, we have everything ready to go and can do a training with 1-2 days notice. All of the crews in our council are ready to go at recharter time in spite of National's efforts to make it difficult for a new or long term crew.

Eagle92, The BSA is not part of the Netherlands scouting association last I checked so your rebuttal is irrelevant. Neckers in all reality are a obsolete scouting artifact of the past that really serves no real purpose this day and age. Those who want to wear them that's fine but for an unofficial scouting event lets put your nostalgia behind you and concentrate on your units program which is where our efforts should be focused. World Neckerchief Day? time for a reality check.

What a ridiculous post and what a bunch of untrue statements. World Neckerchief Day is not an official event and as stated a necker should never be worn by itself. The only shame here is your erroneous viewpoints.

tgrim, If all your unit leaders took all the required online training, YPT, Leader basic, etc. you are good to go. Your DE should be helping you since new units are a requirement for his job not putting obstacles in your path.