BadenP

bnelon That one standard for Eagle has been altered, fudged, reinterpreted, ignored, and abused for years by troop leaders. Scouters read what they want from a handbook and make their own personal interpretation as to whether or not the boy has met the mark. In Eagle Mill troops that I have seen firsthand their boys fall way short of the "standard", but all that is important to the leaders is how many Eagles the troop produces, and keeping mom and dad happy. These type of scout leaders and the Eagles they produce are a sad commentary as to the quality and fitness of the boy scout program today, especially the Eagle program, and unfortunately their numbers are increasing each year. Thank goodness for those few troops still in exsistence that run a more traditional scouting program and really make sure their Eagles have truly met and even exceeded the "STANDARD". There are no checks and balances in place in the field, council,or National to insure that the "Standard" has truly been met. So your premise bnelon while true in theory is not the reality of what is happening in the field.

Tampa Congratulations on your large and successful troop. My 2 cents worth, 80 is an awfully large troop and it is easy for some boys to feel lost or left out in the group, you could try breaking off segments of your troop into mini troops, say twenty or so and cater the program to the level and interests of each group. In other words as the boys move up in rank they move into even more challenging activities. Avoid the "Eagle Mill mentality" at all costs as that will definitely cost you boys in the longrun. Keep offering a wide variety of activities that the boys want to do, not the adults. I think trying to keep the troop/patrol experience smaller more intimate and personal to the boys will definitely help your retention rate and make them feel really part of the group instead of just another number. Lastly make sure your boys are first and foremost having FUN, if your troop is run like an extension of school, overemphasizing bookwork over outdoor experiences then you are just asking for trouble. Good luck and happy scouting!

UC As I said there are always exceptions to the norm, but in the case of 13yo Eagles, in my own experience few met the standards for Eagle, and even fewer had a solid outdoor experience or skills knowledge, but were rather rushed through the Eagle Mill process which has really hurt the boy scout program and cheapened the value of the Eagle. Not setting up obstacles but really meeting the requirements for the Eagle, which should be held to a higher standard. IMO these days too many boy scout leaders are just giving the ranks away by shortcutting, bypassing, or altering the requirements, and not holding the boys accountable for what they were supposed to have learned.

To make another point if your church is the 501c3 organization of record they are under NO obligation to let the pack use the number, especially because they would be held ultimately accountable by the IRS for any misuse of that number by the pack soliciting goods, cash, or services that may run contrary to IRS regulations. As a former IRS agent I have seen this kind of scenario blow up causing the CO to lose their 501c3 status and the unit leaders prosecuted for illicit solicitation. So be careful and learn and follow the IRS rules exactly.

UC EAGLE No one ever said it can't be done, especially in these days of watered down requirements, the question is what kind of scout will it produce. In most cases it will be an Eagle with poor scouting skills and understanding little to nothing of what he did learn. In addition it will be a very limited number of outdoor experiences since he is too busy studying and getting you to sign off his book every week. In other words an immature stunted Scout with little to no understanding of what being an Eagle really means. In summation the result is a pathetic product of yet another Eagle Mill Troop. UC, you know deep down what I said is true for the vast majority of 13 yo Eagles, whether you want to man up to it or not. Maybe it even hits close to your own experience.

As an ASM for five years and a SM for five years I have seen a lot of scouts come and go. IMO, most 13 year old Eagles look upon their scouting experience more as of an academic exercise rather than an experiential one. They rarely participated in events like the OA, High Adventure camps, etc., held POR's only for as long as it was required to move up in rank, doing the minimum required to squeak by. At their EBOR's most of them lacked the maturity to really understand what their accomplishment meant. When asked what motivated them to become a Eagle most replied something like, "my dad and grandad were Eagles and they expected me to do the same." or "My mom and dad pushed me to become Eagle." again like the experience was just another requirement for them in life, but it held no personal meaning to them. In the councils I served, excluding LDS scouts,95% of the 13 year old Eagles left scouting shortly after receiving their award. There were a few exceptions to this trend, but they were very few. This was a while back when 13 year old Eagles were few in number. Today 13 year old Eagles are much more commonplace, but their lack of maturity and their leaving scouting right after getting their Eagle is still a serious problem to the program. Boy Scout rank advancement in many troops has erroded to become an almost entirely academic experience which has been reinforced by National's changes to advancement over time, and a lack of vision for the future. When I hear a scout bragging that he earned every merit badge or got his Eagle by 13 I have to wonder what kind of memories of his scouting days he will truly remember, trips camping in the woods, jamborees, high adventure canoeing , mountain climbing, sailing on the ocean, OR sitting in a building getting a myriad of requirements signed off each week and very little experience in the outdoors at all. What kind of legacy is the BSA truly leaving to future generations???

UC Eagles belief that because he did it it should be the norm, and the answer Tampa got to his question is what is wrong with the boy scout program today, it is all quanitity over quality and retention. We have scouts with little to no real skills and knowledge, and poorly trained leaders perpetuating these weak programs, which seem to have become the norm rather than the exception. The reputation and value of the Eagle and the BSA continues to diminish because of these practices, and the lack of direction and vision at National. It is time for change before it is too late as the boy scout program continues to shrink into oblivion.

Twocub Once again I am in full agreement with you. This McDonald fast food mentality of rushing the kids through the ranks emphasizing quanity over quality has and is currently doing great harm to the quality of the boy scout program and producing some very incompetent boy scouts in the process. IMO this is because many of the current crop of scoutmasters lack the skills and knowledge to deliver a quality program to their boys, and some are just plain lazy.

Eng61 Your constant doom and gloom scenarios on every thread in this forum are getting a little too repetitive, as well as being off subject, innaccurate, and just plain annoying, give it a rest already. No one cares.

SN9 I guess it depends on if you are pushing quantity over quality in the process, rank progression is not supposed to be a race rather the acquiring and retention of scout skills and knowledge at a pace that is right for the boy, not the troop. I am not a big fan of the First Class First Year program for that very reason. Let the boy enjoy his scouting experience, the sudden increase in 13 year old Eagles, IMO, is just bringing the whole program down. Lets be real here, the boy scout program has been losing boys and troops at an alarming rate in recent years caused by poor quality programs and poorly trained leaders, as well as a real shift in emphasis as to what the boy scout program should really be about, downplaying the outdoor emphasis almost entirely.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Sooner or later this kinda thing is gonna happen, the only real obstacle is having the committed adults to make it happen, all the rest is nothing but paperwork since neither the BSA or the Girl Scouts is going to turn down new units. The training can be split up initially and completed over time so they all don't have to complete both trainings immediately. Eagle92 sorry to hear as a DE the GS rep didn't cooperate with you. In my districts we had full access to all the schools and the GS rep and I set up displays at schools passed out literature, and in some schools we even got to do an assembly with all the kids. That working relationship really boosted both our numbers and we even did school recruitment nights together. Then the GS rep moved on and the new one was not interested in doing any joint ventures. The result was in her first year she lost over 50% of her units, however I still had complete school access and continued to help my units grow.

SP As far as skill is concerned it is a mindset more than anything else. When I volunteered to be an ASM at that inner city troop of high risk kids years ago I had no special training and had not been to graduate school yet to work on my counseling degree. I can tell you it was initially a very scary proposition for me, and before the first meeting I was looking for excuses to bow out, but I went to that first meeting and it was the start of a whole new perspective and very special life experience. Those kids were so eager to have a troop and earn the ranks, two boys came up to me immediately to show me the knots they had learned to tie. By the end of the night I had met and talked with each boy and their parents, many of these kids were ex gang members(not hardcore members), or had some scrapes with the law but what I saw and experienced that night was a group of boys who really WANTED to be scouts. There were some initial adjustments/problems in this troop, but nothing very serious, and six months in these guys were good friends, helping each other succeed. I spent three years with that troop and they taught me never to prejudge a person by who they were on the surface. After that experience I swore to myself I would never turn away any youth who wanted to be a scout, even if they had had a bumpy road and some troubles growing up. Believe it or not SP and Eng61 having just one boy in your troop who has had some problems in his past would not interfere or endanger your other boys, and you already have the skills to work with him because you already work with and help the other boys in your troop. All it takes is being able to show you care and the boy seeing you are giving him a fair break being treated just like the rest of the boys.

SP In my own experiences NO none of them ever lied to me and not one of them failed to live up to the expectations given to them. That is what a bond of trust is all about. So how about quit trying to pick a fight because you already lost the argument. Just worry about your own troop, and good luck to you.

KC9 The attacks went both ways especially when some disagreed with the reasons given. Now you can go to Lisabob's thread and pontificate even more with her extreme case that may or may not be true. The sad part is just how closed minded so many scouters are to this issue, the world is not black or white, yet so many seem to live in that premise.

twocub In answer to your question there is not one set method that fits all, each case is handled on an individual basis. 1) Meet with the boy and his parent, unfortunately this is where the problems seem to begin, single parent working two jobs to make ends meet rarely at home. I ask the boy point blank why he wants to be a scout, what does he think he will get or looking to get from the program, and what contribution does he bring to the unit. 2)Now that the dialog is flowing I ask him about the charges, was he guilty? why did he do it? Does he think he would ever be tempted to repeat it or do something similiar in the future? Were there any other infractions in his past for which he may have not been caught. How can he assure me that the other members of the unit would not be at risk with him being a member. 3) Plan of Action and Contract- an individualized plan that lists what actions I expect from the boy, what I would do if he slips up, and a contract that is a bond of trust between the boy, myself, and the unit which he and his parent sign along with myself and the unit committee, and ASM's/Advisors. The details of the offense are NEVER spelled out in the contract or action plan. This is an oversimplified example of the whole process but in all my years, and not counting the LA inner city troop, I have had over 25 at risk youth in my troops/crews, and believe it or not none of them ever broke that contract, had to be kicked out, harmed any other scout, or quit scouting in the process. I always have set a high bar for these kids and they have always come through. None of the youth have been convicted of deadly crimes like assault with a deadly weapon, rape, attempted murder, etc. and none of them have been repeat offenders. The details of the offense are not shared with the parents, boys for obvious legal reasons. All the youth in the troop/crew are given a contract to sign which spells out in detail what is expected of them as a member of the unit and the consequences if they fail to live up to those expectations, which includes behavior, and creating a safe environment. To show you it does work one of these so called high risk youth in my crew recently completed his Eagle, graduated from high school with a 4.0 GPA, and has been accepted to West Point this fall. Imagine if an adult scouter had said no to him in his time of need. I think you all can tell by now that this is an issue very close to my heart, and it is very difficult for me to sit back and allow some of the misinformation about these kids being spread in this forum that is plainly false. Addendum: Every at risk youth is also given an adult mentor while in scouting, and I as a trained counselor am always available to all the youth for some one on one time.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

KC9 Not that I owe you any explaination but ENG61 said earlier that he will never take any high risk boy into his troop, so he has NO experience on which to base his rant or tell others it is wrong or a high risk to take a boy like that in their troops. I have a lot of experience dealing with these kids, and his so called squat is that without any first hand experience on his part he hasn't got a clue what it is like to have a kid like that and what they bring to the troop. E61, just like yourself apparently, seems to believe that a high risk youth brings gang members, drugs, booze and who knows what else to the troop and that is just plain untrue nonsense. You both can hold on to your antiquated and false premises all you want but you are both without any credibility.

Eng61 Look at the history of scouting Powell took ALL the boys off the streets of London no matter their backgrounds and under his guidance he had no trouble. After almost 30 years as a scout leader the young men and women who had a troubled past NEVER once caused a problem in any of my troops or crews or EVER put any of the other youth at risk. So once again you don't know squat about what you are talking about. As far as self importance is concerned it was these kids efforts and accomplishments that proved to me that deep down they were good kids who only needed a chance to prove themselves, all I did was give them that opportunity. Too bad your own petty fears and prejudices will always prevent you from having the same experiences or teach you the TRUE meaning of the scout oath and law and teach you what being a good scout leader really means. You know Jesus accepted all people from all walks of life without question, so what gives you the right to exclude anyone from your troop who truly wants to be a scout, talk about being self important.

Qwazse You have a great attitude and a willingness to give a kid a chance which helps make you a great and trusted scout leader with your youth. twocub and Eng61- your intolerant attitudes and deep set prejudices makes me seriously question your ability to be a fit scout leader who truly exemplifies the scout oath and law or one who just goes through the motions, always taking the easy way out, but never seeing the bigger picture.

Twocub What if when you were a kid you were accused of being a drug dealer or a thief who was picked up by the police for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and some adult was spreading rumors about you, and all you really wanted to be was a boy scout but the SM told you you were scum and didn't deserve the chance? What kind of message does that send to the boy, how would that make you feel? I said in my previous post that SP's scenario was idiocy, not the the leaders. However those leaders are guilty of violating the Scout Oath and no matter how you want to twist things around that is the truth, like it or not. Any scout leader who thinks that one kid with a spot on his record is going to decimate his troop is being naive at best or trying to justify his own prejudice against the boy because that is not the case, and I can tell you that from personal experience that you have nothing to fear except your own unfounded personal prejudice. So yes IMO, any scout leader who can not personally live up to the scout oath and law is not a very effective scout leader. All it takes is a genuine desire to give a boy a chance and that boy will see you as someone who really cares and is willing to give him a chance, which establishes that bond of trust between you both that will last for a long long time. Being a scout leader requires you to take a chance sometimes it is not about always taking the easy way out when a situation comes up.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

Seattle Excuse me but you don't know what the heck you are talking about. Your obvious prejudice and lack of personal experience only adds to the idiocy of your statement. I have been a leader for an all high risk scout group and you know what they were less trouble than any "good kid" unit. If no one ever took the time to work with juvenile offenders and gave them an opportunity to see a better way we would need 10 times the number of prisons, which would bankrupt most state budgets. We aren't talking about murderers, rapists or major felons here but a kid who made a mistake due to a variety of reasons and want to try to get back to a normal life. Your personal prejudices would prevent them from ever becoming a scout and trying to make that happen. As I said in a prior post that violates the Scout Oath, "to help other people at all times", and IMO that makes you a pretty poor excuse for a scout leader, and I truly mean that.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

CC -your reporting requirement analogy is of absolutely NO relevance here. The boys past is already known. Again all you seem to want to do with your posts is stir up a hornets nest, which is neither helpful or of any value. Twocub- you are looking at this from the wrong perspective. You can be vigilant just by looking for strange or secretive behaviors from the boy. Look the fact that this kid wants to be a scout is a real tip off to me that either he was either in the wrong place at the wrong time or he is truly looking for a real solid alternative to what he has done before, and in either case he deserves the benefit of the doubt. Look most juvenile offenders I have worked with there is a tendency by others to isolate them out of fear and giving them in turn a sense of feeling worthless. Giving them a chance to not only be a part of an mainstream organization of their peers but also to accomplish positive, constructive achievements in their life, and to be recognized for those accomplishments goes a long way towards having those kids making lifechanging choices in their lives.

Scoutbox Back when you were a kid you were in an Explorer post not a crew, a crew is just in Venturing. Just an FYI for the ADC so you don't make the same mistake in front of experienced scouters.

jts Read her second post ALL her information is 3rd hand and she even admits when she has met him he seems just like one of the guys. If this is even a true scenario which I highly doubt it is all he said she said with no specifics. The other reason I doubt the verasity of this story is I have had one or more youth in my troops and crew to know what happens personally. These kids if they are serious turn out to be among the higher achievers, dedicated and involved. If they are pulling a con they usually leave on their own in a month or two with little damage done. All these scare scenarios by some other posters are bogus and come from their own fears than actual personal experience. If any of you really think any gangbanger would want to join a troop to pedal drugs then you are both naive and out of touch with what really goes on in that world. Drug use in troops usually comes from the so called good boy who bring mommy and daddy's pain killers and booze to a campout and shares them with others. And lets get real here when was the last time you heard of a drive by shooting at a boy scout meeting? Never is the answer. When I worked with that ALL high risk troop in the heart of the poorest part of LA the gangs never once bothered any of the boys or disrupted any of our meetings because we were no threat to them. So all you fear mongering scouters be at peace because what you fear the most is not realistically ever going to happen, especially in a case like this where just one boy is involved. I have two former juvenile offenders in my crew today and you would never be able to pick them out, they have both finished Ranger and are working toward the Silver Award.

Eng61 If you read the OP's original post carefully the drugs and gang stuff were prior to his joining the troop, she has no evidence he was dealing or gangbanging since he joined the troop so this is not a safety issue as much as the paranoia of one parent of a boy in the troop. I am willing to bet his so called attitude problem was probably conjured up by her in her one woman effort to force the troop to get rid of the boy. IMO the real problem here seems to be the mother who is willfully slandering the boy in order to get others to join her little witch hunt. Do you really think a troop leader would take a boy into a troop if he posed any threat to the other boys? Don't you think that the SM/Committee already know about the boys past and discussed it in detail with the boy and his parents and the police? The other fact that casts real suspicion on this OP is that she posted then immediately closed her account without ever waiting for an answer tells me she is probably just another flamer or troll using this forum to get a reaction and this whole story was bogus from the get go. I think we have all wasted enough time on this fantasy story.

CC Your last post you paint an extreme polar opposite of reality. If a boy with a troubled past comes up to you and asks to join your troop because he is trying to leave his past behind, start over and really wants to be a scout you would turn him away because of that past and imply he is not good enough to join your troop? Then you are SHIRKING your responsibility as a scout leader. Look I have had supposedly good kids in my troop who were absolute terrors and disruption to the group, they got put in their place fast and told no more or you are gone. A boy who tells me he is looking to change I will bend over backwards to make sure he is given every opportunity to do just that, as EVERY scout leader should. You establish that bond of trust at the get go and just watch what happens, it doesn't take special skills or training to work with these kids just a genuine desire to help.