BadenP

Don''t let F-Scouter see that pic he will give his usual diatribe about the improper wearing of the scout uniform again, lol

Scoutnut

You really need to review your math lessons again, according to your stats 61% of the scout associations are coed, the BSA is not which puts it into the 39% minority, duh. It seems you have a problem with percentages, so please learn basic math before you criticize.

Now if you reduce the 155 to just western European, North and South America you would find that the BSA really is behind the pack.

This thread has been in the toilet since page3, lol. I don't care if the guy is a liberal or a conservative a perv is a perv and this one got caught and is gone. One less moron in Washington to deal with.

I know Mazzuca personally from my days as a scouting professional, he was my first SE in fact. Bob is a real company man so don't go looking for him to be making any sweeping changes in the program. This is his final reward for 36 years of service and then he will retire achieving the highest office in his profession. I wish him well. Just don't expect anything different from the status quo.

This is the old chicken and egg argument that has been hashed over in here countless times.

The council and the units are co dependant on each other if you plan to deliver a good program with adequate facilities and training. To blame the CORs for bad scout executives is laughable and plain untrue. If the SM, CM et al got to know their COR, which by the way they are supposed to do, they would have a say in council. If your COR is weak then it is a pretty good indicator the whole unit leadership is weak. An SE comes into a new council and the first thing he wants to know is who are the movers and shakers in the community and he tries to recruit them onto the Exec. board to insure him the financial support he needs. As a fomer DE and Senior DE I watched this occur with no less than three new SE's to the same council in four years. IT IS A MYTH THAT THE COR'S ELECT THE SE, yes they are supposed to have a vote, but are rarely informed by the council exec board of these meetings, so they the elite of the board do the selection in most councils, that is a fact not a myth. They want to maintain control of the council.

You unit leaders have more power than you think but most are too lazy to get to know their COR and thats your own fault no one else. Most COR's never go to a training to learn about their obligations and that too is the fault of the council and unit leaders for not developing a relationship and keeping them informed. As a trained COR almost all of the executive board meetings I have attended there has never been a real major issue to vote on usually the issue comes up stating a committee has done a study and concluded that for example the camp kitchen needs a new stove because the old one is near the end and it is a rubber stamp vote. After a number of these kind of meetings most of the COR's get bored and stop attending these meetings. By the way even though most councils are separate entities they all fall under the overall protective umbrella of National and they are the ones who have the most influence with the councils and SE's.

So if you are going to cry and moan and cast blame get your facts straight and your COR's trained and active in your council. You concentrate on program and keeping your kids in scouts.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

I would strongly suggest you bring in an expert speaker on suicide to talk to the kids, few scouters are really qualified to do this adequately. Second when a person commits suicide the family should be entitled to privacy and no details of this suicide should be discussed with the teens or adults, its a matter of courtesy and respect for the deceased.

I like the idea of discussing the topic as part of the personal fitness mb or something similiar. The bottom line is you don't want to start rumors flying or inhibit teens from freely talking about their own feelings regarding this issue. This is a very real and serious issue among teens and adults and should be handled as such.

When I served as a DE the LDS units in my districts did not object if a non LDS teen joined their troop, they looked at it as an evangelistic opportunity, however if the boy did not show an interest in their faith after a year they were encouraged to switch troops. As others have stated here true LDS scouting is geared towards preparing the boy for his mission when he turns 18. If an LDS boy chooses to join a troop outside his troop, the LDS leadership will have strong words with the parents and if the parents decide to keep the boy out of the LDS scouting program they can be disciplined or even dismissed from the church. I witnessed this happen to five LDS families personally.

You all have to remember that there are several levels or degrees of membership within the LDS church, each with their own set of rules. Nld is correct when he says that a boy can not be registered in two different troops, however the LDS wards do automatically sign up every eligible boy each year, the applications are submitted for them, without their signature, a special allowance National makes for LDS scouting. So the question for me has always been which is the boys true troop, to me it would be the one he and his parents sign him up for, thats how the dual troop registration occurs. My personal feeling is that all LDS scouting should be a seperate program from mainstream scouting since its goals and purpose are so very different. I would like to hear input from an LDS scouter on this topic.

As Scoutldr said too many more important issues to worry about. Besides with our numbers shrinking maybe we shouldn't be too quick to dismiss it, lol.

F Scouter how many kids do you see get dressed up in old military uniforms or other type of professional clothing just for fun , it's part of being a kid so get over it already. Besides you probably did the same thing when you were a kid.

All I have to say is welcome to our capitalistic, materialistic world. Money always has and always will continue to perpetuate a priviledged class who can buy their way into or out of anything and nothing is ever going to change it, just look at history.

Ok I am on the opposing view, I am not a Bush fan, however I do feel that the initial reaction he took to 9/11 was correct. Now if he had concentrated on and secured Afganistan first before rushing into Iraq this war would have been over a long time ago. Now there is a real danger that both countries governments will collapse and the terrorists will have won in the long run and thats not acceptable. If Bush had taken the advice of his field commanders instead of constantly replacing them when they disagreed with him things would have been more in control today instead of the chaos that now controls things. He used the death threat against his dad by Sadam as an excuse to launch a personal vendetta into Iraq based on false/manufactured evidence, and now he has lost the support of his party and the American people, and most of the world. And thats what he will be remembered for, not our strong economy, low unemployment or lower taxes, and thats the truly tragic end of this story.

SS

You need to read his 7/12 document, he does not state that his church is the best way he states the Catholic Church is the ONLY way to salvation and that ALL other Christian churches are not true churches and have NO hope for salvation. In addition he states the ordinations of their clergy are invalid. That IMHO is a very dangerous statement to make if he wants to keep ecumenical talks going.

Trev,

I admit that I do not like Ratzinger and that the Catholic Church made a huge mistake electing him as pontiff. As a former Catholic I find it intolerable that this man with his jaded past was elected in the fastest papal election in the history of the Church, and I truly believe that the Holy Spirit had very little to do with Ratzingers rise to power as the Church proclaims. Any leader of any major religious denomination that would make the kind of predujudical statements that Ratzinger has made would be branded a crackpot and would have no credibility with the rest of the world. Finally Trev., please dont paint Ratzinger as some innocent victim as he was a willing participant in many of the attrocities Hitlers Youth Group committed, that misinformation about his unwilling participation was a massive PR campaign pushed and promoted by the Vatican to whitewash his past deeds.

You can all disagree if you like but those are the facts, you can find them on line just google Ratzinger. OGE, Ratzinger has personally admitted his involvement in Hitlers Youth and being a member of the Nazi Army in interviews and even in one of his own books, and has claimed he made a mistake. So you can hide your head in the sand and blindly stay ignorant of the facts or you can become informed with the facts so you can see the man for what he is. In a recent statement, 7/12, the Pope has now declared that "All other Christian churches are not truly churches because they do not have a line of apostolic succession therefore the ordination of their clergy is not valid, and their traditions do not lead to salvation." The man clearly does not belong in the papacy and the College of Cardinals should be held responsible for putting such an unfit candidate into that position.

The people of Germany also thought that early in his career that Hitler was a scholar and the right man who was going to deliver the country out of its severe economic depression and look what happened he was made Chancellor and the rest is history, Ratzinger was one of those people, during WWII he was a young adult in his twenties, not a child like some have suggested.

Any message from Ratzinger aka Pope Benedict I would take with a grain of salt. The man was an active member of Hitlers Youth where they terrorized German Jews and destroyed their shops and property, which he has freely admitted to. Then he joined the Nazi army and now he is the Pope. Not a very good role model for our youth is it, or even all the Roman Catholics, I wonder what divine justice awaits him? The message was written by one of his underlings for purely political reasons. He is trying to mimic the image of his predecessor who was an avid supporter of youth, this guy is just an opportunist and nothing more.

I think scoutleader has it right, what are traditional American values in this day and age? Someone from the east coast, the midwest, the south and the west coast have very different ideas about our so called values. As far as the press is concerned they have always gone to extremes to sell papers or boost ratings. It has become a national pasttime to critize, insult and denigrade others, just look at all the reality tv shows on the air. Our kids are growing up with the idea its cool to be rude and disregard the rules. If you assert yourself too much with your child CPS will come a knockin. Our society as a whole has been starting to crumble for quite a while now, and I see more and more of this rude behavior at scouting events as well. But face it, scandal and gossip are big sellers and the press want to be first with the story, ie Paris Hilton, that kind of nonsense takes up more of the news every night, the big network news are more like Entertainment Tonight than any real news. Stop buying the trash rags and watching the so called news, thats the only way to influence the way and the what of news content we receive.

SW Your last post to Gern contradicts your previous one, and that is the first of many errors. If you wish to continue please PM me as this discussion is going far afield from the topic at hand. Thank you.

SW Scouter

You really do not understand what the Marriage Tribunal is about do you? They do not just deal with Catholic marriages they hold hearings on any marriage performed in most Protestant denominations as well. Lately they even have adjudicated a civil marriage of a very good friend of mine. For my masters of ministry degree I received from Notre Dame University I have taken classes in Canon Law. The official church policy is that any marriage performed by an ordained minister, rabbi, priest, or even an iman is considered a sacramental marriage and the Catholic tribunal under canon law has the authority to investigate and annul any such marriage. In my opinion and those of many other clergy collegues from various denominations puts the Catholic church on a very slippery slope of credibility. Another case of interferring where they do not belong just like this priest who wants to dictate who can speak or participate in an Eagle Court of Honor.

By the way SW I am interested in your answer to Gern's question, especially since your explanation of Catholic marriage is not at all accurate. As an ordained Christian minister and former Catholic I want to see you defend your very prejudicial post with some accurate statements.(This message has been edited by BadenP)

To reply to THE SCOUT, this is the same bull the church pulled a while back where they stated that any Catholic who voted for a candidate who was not pro life would be committing a sin if they continued to receive Communion. As far as divorce is concerned the busiest office in most dioceses is the Marriage Tribunal where they make Catholics jump through a series of hoops to get an annulment so they can remarry in the church, and the rate of anuulments or invalidity cases being granted have increased dramatically in the last five years. So they may say they don't believe in divorce, but their actions run contrary. God gave humans free will to formulate their own decisions whether they be right or wrong. The Catholic Church under this new pope seems bent on taking making choices away from individual Catholics, that is flat out wrong. I agree with Trevorums statement. Again I say most of these clerics are hardly in a position in their public or private lives to dictate ethics or morality to anyone else. This story is just another example of improper mandates by a hopefully rogue priest that should make every Catholic question the authority of such a priest.

Thats why there should be a division of church and state, the only ones to suffer in this case will be the boys. This is yet another reason why I left the Catholic religion many years ago and have never regretted it once, they think they can keep taking more and more control of things that are none of their business. Now they presume to mandate their beliefs on non Catholics as well. Who knows maybe one day we will become like Islam and the clerics will determine all that we do, think or say. I know there are a few Catholics in here who will jump to the Catholic church's defense but this could turn into another subgroup within scouting like the LDS, then scouting becomes diminished even further.

The BSA has stopped allowing schools to charter a unit, maybe we should do the same with the churches. It really urkes me to see a bunch of celibate old men in the Vatican dictate what every Catholic must do in all aspects of their lives. Many of these gentlemen are guilty of a potpourri of moral and ethical sins themselves

As much as I hate to admit it Merlyn is probably correct in his assessment of this situation in Philly. So barring a huge public uproar from the power brokers and citizens of Philly I can not see the BSA prevailing. The sad part is that this type of sentiment is growing across the country, and like it or not the BSA does not carry the same political punch it did 20 years ago. Our numbers are dropping and the respect and honor of being part of the BSA organization has gradually been erroding as of late.

It comes down to who has all the political juice in the city and can make things happen. Beavah is correct when he infers the wording of the contract and the law is irrelevant, it all boils down to who has the clout, and where they stand on the issue.

All the time honored history and traditions of scouting will not be enough to stop this and other similiar future issues from continuing to further diminish the BSA and thats the most tragic consequence of all.

I agree it is another sad day for scouting. I do not think however that any council should be beholding to any city for the use of public property, it looks like the council had pretty poor legal advice before they built their offices.

Merlyn, I bet you're ecstatic with the news!

Beavah,

Have you ever thought about being a minister, eh?

I admire your approach your scouting, even though you can pontificate at times as much as Eamonn, just kidding. Honestly I like people to be themselves rather than being dictated to as OGE suggested. I am sure all of us can be kinder at times, but we let our emotions take over instead. Quite honestly though it really does liven up the conversation, a little debate is good once in a while.

Beavah, keep up your movement for more integrity in our posts.

de4bsa

As a former DE and Sr. DE myself I echo your work schedule as typical long hours, we figured it out once in our council office that the new DE averages about 50 cents an hour with all the overtime we put in. By the way you mean to tell me you actually had time to play a round of golf each week, lucky you. As for the summer time though we had a choice of assignments, being the camp director, organizing and coordinating all the cub scout day camps in the council, or meeting and setting up new businesses to host a career exploring unit in the fall. Since I lived in one of the two districts I served, you also were always cornered at the grocery store and restaraunts by volunteers with another emergency crisis. All in all though I really loved it, but I do not miss those long hours and few weekends for family. So I can sympathize with you, but I sure don't envy you. YIS

CNY

I agree with you, there is no way the jblake crew would qualify for the quality unit award unless he lied on the form. Secondly as jblake himself states his numbers are small. jd if you tried using the program correctly maybe you would recruit more youth because the way you are doing it now will only fail in the long run, and give venturing a bad name. Personally blake I think you have nothing to brag about.

baden

I agree with you, I also think Backpacker is a good magazine but there are a core of individuals in here who if they read or hear any negative comment about the BSA brand that magazine or individual as being a product of "liberal, left wing ,Democratic propaganda." Those same individuals then try to squelch any meaningful discussion on the topic.

A forum is supposed to be a place where differing opinions and ideas are discussed freely and without malice, however there are some in this forum that do not understand that or refuse to allow it. That is a loss for all of us.

Just because you don't like the rules Beavah doesn't mean you can ignore them. The SE is bound by the same rules in the manuals like the rest of us and believe me none of them will go contrary to them because of a possible lawsuit. An adult advisor can not have an affair with a youth member in Venturing whether they are 15 or 20 years old for obvious reasons and no COR or SE in their right mind will ever condone it. Boundaries between adult members and youth are there for a reason, to protect both parties from being abused or being accused of abusing. THATS JUST PLAIN COMMON SENSE BEAVAH!!, it sounds to me that you don't put much stock in protecting the reputations of these teens.

Even if both parties are over 18 this type of situation could undermine the operation of the crew and cause a scandal for those involved as well as the CO, it is a lose lose scenario. I think Beavah you should look at the content of your own statements before you accuse anyone of not having any common sense, for the lack of common sense seems to be coming from you this time.