Merlyn_LeRoy

>Do you spend this much time telling churches to quit discriminating against atheists? In my mind, the government "supports" churches because my donations to the church are tax deductible. The government doesn't sponsor churches; the government DOES sponsor BSA units. There are atheist groups (and yes, even atheist churches) that are tax deductible, too, so there's no discrimination using your example; atheists and theists are treated equally. But when a government agency charters a BSA unit, they're running a "no atheists" youth group, which is unlawful.

>I suggest you put your tireless energies into improving scouting and not trying to tear it down. What I'm doing is trying to STOP discrimination against atheists by my own government. I don't consider that "tearing down" anything. >I would not tolerate any adult leader or youth in my den or troop who was intolerant to atheists. Can atheists join your den or troop? The BSA won't let you admit atheists even if you want them.

>"Would you join an organization that admitted all boys except Jews?" >Grew up in such an organization, went to school with no Jews, no atheists, no blacks. Uh, no. There's a difference between a lack of Jews due to no Jews living in the area, and refusing membership to Jews. And I doubt there were no atheists; you just didn't know. >"How bigoted can the leadership of an organization become before you would consider leaving?" >Well, let's see first I have to leave my family because my father is the biggest bigot I know. >Then I have to leave my job because o

sctmom: >Let's assume for argument's sake he did say the quote. So what? That proves what? How bigoted can the leadership of an organization become before you would consider leaving? Would you join an organization that admitted all boys except Jews? Would you leave it if perfectly nice Jewish boys were thrown out as soon as it was discovered they were Jewish? Would you leave if one of its leaders said no Jews could be good citizens and all of them were dishonest, and that leader wasn't replaced? Would you want a wholly-owned subsidiary of this organization to teach ethics to Jewi

sctmom on camp fire law: >They aren't forced to say it, but if it is said by the majority at every meeting aren't we at the same place of saying the Pledge of Allegiance with "under God"? True, it's similar, though camp fire doesn't throw out atheists like the BSA. The pledge decision is more of a problem because of government involvement; in a similar vein, the government ran into problems with the Boys & Girls Clubs running their Morale, Welfare, and Recreation department because their membership cards had "I believe in god" on them: http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article

to kwc57, the Glen Schmidt quote is from a recent Scouting for All press release: http://www.scoutingforall.org/aaic/2002102901.shtml

sctmom: >You mention Campfire USA. If one of the issues is that kids don't have an alternative to Boy Scouts, you just pointed out that they do -- Campfire USA. How does an atheist deal with the Campfire promise to worship God? I don't know what promise you're referring to; searching on campfire.org for 'god' doesn't produce anything along these lines, and their web page says: We invite children, youth and adults regardless of race, religion, socioeconomic status, disability, sexual orientation or other aspect of diversity. Camp Fire USA programs are designed to provide coeducat

bob white: >I stand by both posts. The 28 units you refered to were not chartered to the city of Chicago except for a few with police and fire departments taht were converted to LfL units. The others were with Chicago public schools many of which were converted to parent or neighborhood organizations and continued to meet. So, except for the police & fire department charters, and the public school charters, there weren't any. Ah. Yeah, I guess that really showed me.

In reply to OGE, thanks for the supporting sentiment, and no, I don't think the BSA is conspiring to teach hatred against atheists, it's just that the BSA teaches it by example. The BSA is a bad role model. There are plenty of examples in this thread. You yourself admitted that you felt that Glen Schmidt's statement was so outrageous that no comment was necessary, but Rooster has avoided even criticizing Schmidt's statement, and ScoutParent seems to support it by his/her sarcastic response. And didn't you question how Schmidt got to be a high-ranking BSA official with such an opini

bob white: >The threat of lost Chartering Organizations just hasn't happened. It's a device that groups and individuals use as fear mongering. The ACLU suit hasn't played out yet. You don't seem to argue consistently -- first, you seemed to argue that charters to government agencies were legal, then you said you didn't know of any public schools chartering BSA units, and now you're saying losing government chartered units (presumably some exist and will be revoked due to lawsuits) isn't be a problem. What are you arguing? ... >I really do not see a situation when we w

compass writes: >Nothing is preventing these folks [atheists] from starting their own organization. True, however it couldn't be part of WOSM, since WOSM only allows one group per country and the BSA is keeping atheists out. An atheist can be a scout in other countries, but if they move to the US they can't join the BSA. There are similar groups that don't discriminate, like Campfire boys & girls.

bob white: >I know of no scout unit charterd by a public school. In every case that I know of the unit is chartered by a parents organization made of parents that attend a particular school. That is a huge difference from being chartered by the school. You didn't know about Chicago chartering 28 units back in 1998, either. You don't even seen to know about the charters mentioned earlier in this thread. ... >So the argument about scout units and taxpayer based support is groundless. Keep whistling in the dark; there are thousands of BSA units that will lose their char

>"Anybody that doesn't believe in god isn't a good citizen, and that if an atheist found a wallet on the ground they would pick it up, plunder the money and throw the wallet back on the ground." >Let's be honest and clear here. Yes, let's. >This statement was an opinion made by one Scouter to another during a training course. The "one scouter" being a high up BSA official. >People need to quit giving the impression that this is an official policy from BSA headquarters. I haven't been doing that; I've quoted it as being from Glen Schmidt, the dist. com

Rooster7: >Just for the sake of argument, let's say you're right. Would you mind addressing the specific statement quoted? "Anybody that doesn't believe in god isn't a good citizen, and that if an atheist found a wallet on the ground they would pick it up, plunder the money and throw the wallet back on the ground." Not "for the sake of argument", but what is your actual opinion? Is it bigoted to brand all atheists as "not good citizens" and dishonest? Now, if some BSA official had made the same statement about Jews or Catholics, I'm sure you'd easily agree that it w

bob white: >The city government of Chicago was a charter organization of a scout unit? I don't think so. Oh, yes. It chartered 28 units back around 1998: http://www.datalounge.com/datalounge/news/record.html?record=2734 This was also back when the BSA discriminated in its Explorer program. One week after Chicago dropped its BSA charters, the BSA announced that career Explorers were moving to Learning for Life. See the Poloncarz & Winkler case. It started when a man was illegally excluded from the city's Law Department Explorer post, ironically enough. >B

bob white: ... >There are some forms of discrimination, in certain circumstances, that are illegal, and others that are not. >The form used by the BSA has been judged as legal. Only for the BSA as a private organization; the government can't practice religious discrimination, and the BSA decision didn't change this. >Merlyn may feel they are illegal, but Merlyn's opinion carries no legal weight. Neither does yours. The KKK legally has a whites-only organization, but it isn't legal for the government to run branches of the KKK, either. That's why Chicago

>Another assault by the minority....Merlyn, take kids who don't believe in a higher being and start your own organization. The military sponsors organizations overseas so kids don't have to miss even more while their parent's are defending atheists rights to be atheists. What if the kid and/or the parents are atheists? Oh, then their rights don't count, I suppose. The ACLU lawsuit won't prevent the military from sponsoring youth groups, just ones that discriminate in ways the government can't. It would be perfectly fine if all the BSA units were changed to Campfire. So now

rooster7 writes: >Bigotry against people who refuse to believe in and/or recognize God? Hmmm. >So, if a group or individual does not want to associate with another group or individual that believes in and/or does something distasteful to them, we must label that bigotry? Would you mind addressing the specific statement quoted? "Anybody that doesn't believe in god isn't a good citizen, and that if an atheist found a wallet on the ground they would pick it up, plunder the money and throw the wallet back on the ground." For way of comparison, here is the same sentiment

>Jim Crow laws encouraged discrimination and bigotry. Faith in God means acknowledging and respecting the creator of the universe. Let's see, is the Chief Seattle district commissioner chair encouraging bigotry when he says "Anybody that doesn't believe in god isn't a good citizen, and that if an atheist found a wallet on the ground they would pick it up, plunder the money and throw the wallet back on the ground." ? Should he be removed from his position so he won't encourage bigotry against atheists?

bob white: >That does not change the fact that if a government agency chooses to charter a scout unit, they do not have the authority to lessen the joining requirements. That also doesn't change the fact that government agencies can't legally charter scout units that exclude atheists. As to OGE, class-action lawsuits always take a long time; it took about two years for the original suit against Chicago to be settled, and that didn't even go to court. As to military chaplains, I don't know of any court decisions, but in any case, it doesn't compare because military chaplains ser

>>"These units are chartered by the US military and cannot exclude atheists; ask Brad Farmer and the other BSA execs if they expect the US government to practice unlawful religious discrimination on their behalf. >This argument is built on a false premise. It suggests that the the because the unit is chartered to a specific organization that the members are members of that organization and that is not true. No, that's not my argument at all. A government agency can't discriminate on the basis of religion; they can't run, own, or sponsor a youth group that excludes athe

>This page >http://members.doubleknot.com/Pack4567/about/ScoutingOnSubase/scoutingonsubase.html >clearly states "Cub Scouts: Sponsored by the CO of Subase, Capt. Baker" >and >"Boy Scouts: Sponsored by the PACNORWEST MWR David Della Rovere" PACNORWEST MWR is the Morale, Welfare, and Recreation department of the Pacific Northwest Surface Group, which is certainly a government agency. And, as before, I doubt that the cub pack is chartered to an individual.

>>"Nothing to say about the BSA's dishonesty in chartering units to government agencies?" >I would say that the rules, policies and procedures are pretty obvious. If not, recent court cases make it so. >Merlyn_LeRoy, I'm not sure about your point here. If you think something is wrong, if you think laws are being broken, I would suggest you take action and contact your Congressman or Senator regarding it. Of course, the judicial route is always available I guess you're not aware of the ACLU lawsuit to remove all BSA charters from government agencies; aside from that

>I went to that site like you suggested. I found nothing about Scouting there. I was quoting the pack's page; they call bangor.navy.mil their chartered organization. And again, I don't know of the BSA chartering units to individuals, only organizations.

>Maybe you need to go back and read the website. The Pack was originally sponsored by the base, but now is sponsored by the Commanding Officer. So yes, I was right. Doesn't look that way to me: "More about our Chartered Organization: http://www.bangor.navy.mil/" And I've never heard of an individual chartering a BSA unit, it's always an organization.