Merlyn_LeRoy

You say the BSA discriminates based on religion & creed. You forgot sex! No girls! I've noticed this isn't a problem for you. I don't recall commenting one way or the other, so you have no basis for saying if it's a "problem" for me or not. And if it's not, why are the others? Because HUD grants prohibit discrimination on the basis of religion & creed; some single-sex programs ARE allowed under certain circumstances, which is also why public schools can have boys & girls basketball teams, but can't have a basketball team that excludes atheists or Jews. Sounds li

An analogy is an inference that if two or more things agree with one another in some respects they will probably agree in others. Since scouting does not agree with the actions of the white supremists that you sited in your example, then it was not an analogy. Sorry, you really DON'T know what an analogy is. My analogy was between your snide attitude towards me, and the attitude of a hypothetical white supremacist towards a Jew. You "justified" the BSA's exclusion of *all* atheists by implying that my "hostile" attitude was the real (justified) reason, when the BSA's actual reason i

Your comparison of the Scouting organization and it's volunteers to white supremists exemplifies your total lack of knowledge about this organization and what it does. No, it exemplifies your total lack of comprehension on what an "analogy" is, and what it's for.

How much of your hostility is born of citizenship and how much is anger you brought on yourself from making a choice to reject the rules of the game and then being mad because you aren't allowed to play. If you'll bother to notice (which I doubt), I've been talking about the Boy Scouts' unethical practices of getting public funding for their supposedly "private, discriminatory" club, as illustrated by the Old Baldy lawsuit. The BSA doesn't seem to want to "play" by the government's rules on HUD grants. That's a lot of hostility to carry. Ever wonder why the BSA doesn't think you sho

Merlyn however did not represent Schmidt as one volunteers opinion, he represented him incorrectly as a representative for the BSA. I most certainly did not. I clearly stated (from the OUTSET, not later as you falsely claimed) WHO I was quoting, and pointed him out as an example of the kind of bigotry found in the BSA. It shouldn't be surprising to anyone that I consider the BSA to be a dishonest organization when it has members like yourself.

Bob White: In October 2002 in a thread about an atiest scouter who had his membership removed, Merlyn repeatedly referenced a high ranking spokesman for the BSA. As the thread progressed it turned out he was refering to a local volunteer named Glen Scmidt. Uh, no. My first mention was here: http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=19496&p=4 Where I wrote this: "Anybody that doesn't believe in god isn't a good citizen, and that if an atheist found a wallet on the ground they would pick it up, plunder the money and throw the wallet back on the ground." --Gle

Ed mori: merlyn, in your one post you state "the KKK legally discriminates, yet it would be just as legal for them to use a HUD grant to solicit membership in THEIR club." Why is this legal & the BSA use of the same funds illegal? I said "it would be JUST AS LEGAL" (as the BSA's use of a HUD grant). If the BSA (a private, discriminatory club) can use a HUD grant to solicit membership in their club, so can the KKK, as they are another private, discriminatory club.

You write posts to people who cannot affect your goals, You call the ACLU to get them to take action for you. You collect articles about people who actually invest their time and resources in taking action. It's like the relative who sits by the scanner and listens to the police calls and imagines he is there fighting the crime with them instead of just sitting at home while the real officers do the work. No, I've actually done real work for the ACLUs I mentioned. And I would think there are SOME people here who might have some responsibilities in BSA councils, and a fraud lawsuit a

Well now we are getting somewhere. Lets not even dwell on the all-white thing because there are hundreds of thousands of scouts and scouters in this nation that are not Caucasian. No, lets dwell on it. You do know what an "analogy" is, don't you? You seem to dismiss my analogy by saying there are non-white Scouts, which completely misses the point of an analogy. Do you think it would be lawful for the government to support an all-white youth group by chartering units (assuming the chartering process is the same as the BSA's)? That is, a government agency signs a charter agreement

My goal is to remove all government BSA charters and all government funding of the BSA; it's unlawful for the government to charter BSA units, just as it would be unlawful for it to charter all-white youth groups, or fund them.

I have answered your question, many times; I'm an advocate for atheists' rights. You just don't like my answer.

"They lied about the use of this money," that is a personal opinion and not a legal fact. The courts have not ruled on this and since the question seems to be over whether or not the BSA practices "illegal discrimination" and the Supreme Court has has already ruled that the membership practices are not illegal then it is highly likely that Mr. Goodwin's personal opinion will remain just that and not a legal triumph. Very unlikely; the KKK legally discriminates, yet it would be just as legal for them to use a HUD grant to solicit membership in THEIR club. This isn't about the BSA as a

NJScouter: Under federal law, discrimination against atheists constitutes discrimination on the basis of "religion." I am not sure if this is true under the law of all states; my suspicion would be, yes in some, no in others. It's true under the law in all states, since the first admendment applies to state governments (via the XIV amendment), and the supreme court has ruled that discrimination against atheists is included.

What is your point Merlyn? You haven't proven that the BSA did anything wgong. The courts haven't determined that hte BSA did anything wrong. All you have is 'Hey look! This guy says the BSA lied!' Isn't it obvious that they did? Accepting the money required that they sign a nondiscrimination agreement, yet they discriminate. They don't admit atheists or gays. By the way when last we chatted we were waiting for you to answer a question. As a non-member of the BSA what do you hope to accomplish by posting here? I've stated before, I consider the BSA to be a dish

A couple of news stories on it; LA Times: http://tinyurl.com/526o Press-Enterprise: http://www.pe.com/localnews/sanbernardino/stories/PE_NEWS_nbscout29.f105.html And the ACLU press release: http://www.aclu-sc.org/news/releases/20030128bsafalseclaimsact.shtml From the LA Times: ... The lawsuit filed by Glenn Goodwin, a board member of the ACLU Southern California, challenges a $15,000 federal grant from San Bernardino County to the Old Baldy Council of Boy Scouts. "They lied about the use of this money," said Goodwin. "They use public monies that go on

We talk so much about the dangers of smoking and drinking, but a few years ago there was a statistic that showed the average gay person didn't live to see 40. That "statistic" was by Paul Cameron, a fraudulent and long-discredited researcher who was thrown out of the American Psychological Association over 15 years ago. There's a good reason his statistics aren't talked about; they're clearly bogus: http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_cameron_obit.html

Do you really think that the test for being "avowed" is acknowledgement? Yes, as kwc57 stated later in the thread, that's what the word means. If the BSA didn't mean "avowed homosexuals", they could've stated their policy as "The BSA reaffirmed its view that a homosexual cannot serve as a role model etc etc". That policy would exclude avowed and unavowed gays, but apparently that isn't their policy.

ScoutParent quotes BSA policy: "The BSA reaffirmed its view that an avowed homosexual..." In keeping his real name and identity secret, tjhammer is not an avowed homosexual; the BSA based its case on their claim that having known gays as leaders conflicted with the message they wanted to send, but since tjhammer is not known to be gay in "real life", he's still in line with BSA policy.

kwc57: Under this policy, you can even be a Raelian and believe that aliens created life on Earth thru genetic engineering and still be a Scout. That's actually an interesting question; the Raelians believe aliens created humans, but they are also an explicitly atheist religion: http://www.rael.org/int/english/philosophy/summary/body_summary.html ... Following the extra-terrestrial's instructions, Rael established the Raelian Movement, an international organization to bring together anyone who wishes to help. It is an atheist, non-profit, spiritual organisation; "atheist" b

Rooster7: That is, for a given trial, a "hot shot" lawyer might be able to make a valid point against a particular judge that he "could be" bias because he belongs to a particular organization. However, to decree that no one who belongs to the BSA is qualified for the judgeship is not only overkill, it's dishonest and a blatant example of partisan politics. The partisan politics occurred when a special exemption was added to their nondiscrimination policy to allow judges to be members of "nonprofit youth organizations". Right now, a CA judge can't be a member of a whites-only group - unl

You'll have to point out the "good" in a youth program that has as a central tenet that only theists can be "the best kinds of citizens" (and it's particularly egregious when the government unlawfully charters such discriminatory units). Any good done by a program that promotes such discrimination is completely undercut by it, much as a "character building youth program" that admits all religions (except those Jews over there).

Hey, don't blame me for this mess; people who wanted government religious symbols on public property succeeded in arguing that menorahs and christmas trees are 'secular', so the school is simply following a policy of only allowing 'secular' decorations.

>Merlyn, what will you do this thursday and why? Eat a lot with my wife's family. Why do Christians celebrate pagan holidays like Saturnalia during winter solstice, and the spring festival for the goddess Eostre/Ostara celebrated on the first sunday after the first full moon after the vernal equinox, using her fertility symbols like rabbits and eggs?

OGE: >First things first, who has 2 days in the pool until merlyn leroy enters the fray? Two days? I'm insulted. >next, I wonder why Mr Newdow didnt include military chaplains as well. You can ask him at http://www.restorethepledge.com if you want. ... >What I dont understand is how "...no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof" came to mean all that I just wrote. >If a governmental unit passed a law that only Baptists could be mayor, that only Methodists could be policemen and you had to be Jewish to b

>If federal government entanglement with the Boy Scouts of America violates the establishment clause, what is the story on the federal holiday of Thanksgiving? When the federal government charters a Boy Scout unit, it's running a youth group that excludes atheists; any atheist boy that wants to join will be refused membership, and the government can't do that. If the federal government granted some days off only to theists, your analogy would be more apt, and that too would be unlawful. As it stands, I think companies & government agencies ought to have all holidays as f