Merlyn_LeRoy

bob white writes: The federal government does not give any direct funding to the traditional divisions of the BSA I'd consider HUD Community Development Block Grants to be federal funding.

littlebillie writes: Merlyn, I checked out that site, and - you're right - it's anecdotal and represents a single arbitrary decision on the part of someone who doesn't have a problem in making up awards, either. I'd really like to see a more in-your-face example - a la Lambert - where the nat'l org would pretty much have to comment. Again, the organization lets you certify yourself 'spiritual' - I am interested in a real test of that vs atheism at a media spotlight level. I still think the GSUSA has never been tested to that degree, and I'd be really fascinated by how they spin it. What woul

bob white writes: Sorry to post so soon again but Merlyn asked a direct question of me I would like to resond to. "Tell me, do you approve of a public school running a youth group that excludes atheists?" I believe in the American judicial system. I believe that public Schools should do what is legal and within their authority. If a local comunity should pass a law making it illegal for public schools to charter a scout unit then I would expect them to comply with that law. That however does not give them autority to change the scouting program, it gives them the choice to not ha

evmori writes: merlyn, Make no difference if they were kicking out gays when you were in Cubs. You said you didn't say the God part thereby making you nothing more than a hypocrite! Plain & simple! Hey ed, I already pointed out that the BSA didn't tell me that atheists couldn't join, and, as a nine-year-old only familiar with two other oaths where "god" was entirely optional, I assumed the cub scout oath was similar, and I omitted it. And nobody said a thing about it. It's the BSA's fault for not informing members of the requirements, and they're STILL doing it, because th

Bob White writes: Merlyn again does not give a clear picture of the scouting movement. First, how is it the BSA is to remove reigious foundations but accept the UU's an Wiccan religious Awards? Isn't that a catch-22. No, any government agency has to treat all religions equally. That means if catholics can have BSA recognized religious awards, UUs get to, also. Atheists too, for that matter. Unitarians and Wiccans are not barred from membership as individuals as long as they accept and meet the membership requirements. Most Unitarians are not Athiestic and there are Wicca's who d

littlebillie writes: Merlyn, So the GSUSA can meet at a public school while the BSA cannot? No, I'm not talking about units meeting at schools, I'm talking about units chartered by public schools and other government agencies. The BSA itself says that a unit chartered by organization X is that organization's youth group; they are just using the BSA program as part of its (organization X's) youth group. Government agencies can't run a "no atheists" youth group under any circumstances. Any public school that has facilities open to noncurricular groups has to allow any

littlebillie writes: Merlyn, just out of curiosity, the GSUSA does not, contrary to popular belief, vary so much from the BSA insofar as religion goes. Their website - go to http://www.girlscouts.org/adults/beliefs.html - puts God in the picture, and explains that "The 'motivating force in Girl Scouting' is spiritual. Girl Scouts respects the spiritual values and beliefs of its members, leaving the interpretation of spirituality to each individual and the family." Now, basically, I see this self-interpretation of 'spirituality' as an invitation to the atheist girl simply to lie a

evmori writes: Merlyn, An atheist Cub Scout? WOW! And you question our morals & values yet you lived a lie as a youth! Those who throw stones shouldn't live in glass houses. No, this was in the 1960's, long before the BSA kicked out atheists (I think the first such incident was Paul Trout in 1985, who was reinstated). I was about nine years old, and at that time, the only other oath I was familiar with was the pledge of allegiance and for President of the United States, and I knew that "god" in these oaths was completely optional, so I omitted "god" when I joined the cub scouts

dsteele writes: TJ and Merlyn -- How you consider yourself good scout leaders while not living up to the BSA's standards of membership is beyond me. Easy; I'm not a scout leader. I was a cub scout a few decades ago (and yes, I was an atheist even then), but that's all. Now I'm an atheist activist working to remove all government support of the BSA. I have since realized that my commission comes from the Boy Scouts of America and that I should at the very least point out that homosexuals and atheists, by BSA policy, are not granted registration. And I'll continue to

jbroganjr writes: As for change, (correct me if I am wrong) but National has only excluded adult membership on the basis of morally straight as well as a belief in G-D. They have not expelled a youth that I have heard about. (Youth being under 18). National BSA has thrown out a number of youths due to their unacceptable religious opinions: Mark Welsh (at age 6) in 1989, William and Michael Randall (both in cub scouts at the time) in 1991, and Rick Sherman when he tried to join Explorers in 1997, which was chartered by the Police department (the police department was forced to drop

OGE writes: Maybe I misunderstood you, you write the only reason that BSA started a program that does not base membership on religious beliefs or sexual orientation was because of law suits etc. And you complain it has only been for the last few years. If my above summary is wrong, please correct me. Wasnt the intent of the laswsuits to do just that? TO have the BSA run a youth program that did not base membership requirements on religious beliefs or sexual orientation? The intent was to get the BSA to stop discriminating along these lines in ALL their programs, not just a "

Bob White writes: Thank you, Merlyn, For admitting that the BSA has a program that does not determine membership based on religion or sexuality. Only for the last few years, and only because gays and atheists sued government agencies that were running the BSA's "no gays, no atheists" groups. If it were up to the BSA, there would still be no gays or atheists admitted to the Explorer program. A national program for youth that is larger than any similar program sponsored by or directed toward gay youth members. Why are you so hung up on only comparing it to organizations "gear

There is not one organized program I have ever heard of lead by gay leaders for gay scouts. Why is that? I don't know -- why haven't you heard of Scouts Canada's Rover Crew 129? Most Scout units that accept gays wouldn't be just for gays, just as most Scout units that accept Jews aren't just for Jews. Girl Scouts don't kick out gay members; the BSA's own Explorer program doesn't kick out gay members.

The way I see it is National is not going to do anything until it becomes public knowledge (in the news) that there is a homosexual leader in this council. That's already happened: http://boston.com/dailynews/149/technology/Philadelphia_scouts_decide_not:.shtml ... ''The camp staff I work with know I'm gay,'' 18-year-old Life Scout Gregory Lattera of South Philadelphia told a news conference to protest the national ban on homosexuals in the scouts, which was upheld by the U.S. Supreme Court in 2000. ...

The 1964 civil rights act says an employer must accommodate an employee's religious practices, unless they can show that this constitutes an "undue hardship" for the company: http://www.eeoc.gov/facts/fs-relig.html An "undue hardship" can mean more than a de minimus cost, or a "business necessity": http://www.boli.state.or.us/civil/religion.html Rescheduling a meeting or having someone cover for an employee doesn't sound like it would constitute an "undue hardship" for the company under normal circumstances, but if there was some reason it had to be held that particular day, it c

I would like to turn the question up side down. If the BSA were denied a HUD grant because they are a faith based organization wouldnt that be discrimination on the basis of religion? But that isn't the reason why the BSA would be turned down; it would be turned down because the HUD grant itself would be used in a way that religiously discriminates (Old Baldy used theirs to fund a scoutreach program to increase membership, and, of course, atheists couldn't join). If an organization, faith-based or not, wants a HUD grant, they have to agree to and abide by the nondiscrimination requireme

The government frequently discriminates---giving a minority applicant preference over a non minority applicant is discrimination based on race. And there are plenty of laws regulating this. That is most certainly discrimination and its funded by our tax dollars--have you taken a stance against that or do you prefer to spend your time bashing youth organizations? I'm not "bashing" youth organizations, I'm trying to get a dishonest youth organization (the BSA) to stop defrauding my government. The discrimination you're complaining about is known and regulated by the government; t

I discriminate by prefering NY strip steaks to porterhouse, I discriminate by prefering blonds to brunettes (although my brunette wife will be offended to hear that), and I discriminate by prefering to asociate with people of high moral character (by MY definition) rather than low life scum. I believe none of these are illegal, and I also believe none are immoral. It is my right as a citizen of this planet to discriminate in this manner. And none of this would disqualify me for a HUD grant. If you went to HUD and said you'd like a grant, but you'd only allow blonds access to your program,

Mark: Is it being too simplistic to say that the BSA does not descrimnate based on religion, they don't have any care what religion you are, they just require a belif in God? Yes, it's too simplistic. That isn't religious descrimination in my book. Well, it's religious discrimination in the legal books. They aren't descriminating against anyone belonging to a specific religion. If the BSA required all members to believe in only one god and started kicking out polytheists, that wouldn't be discriminating against a specific religion, either. It would eliminate membe

You don't seem to be able to follow a conversation. Remember my earlier answer? Because HUD grants prohibit discrimination on the basis of religion & creed; some single-sex programs ARE allowed under certain circumstances, which is also why public schools can have boys & girls basketball teams, but can't have a basketball team that excludes atheists or Jews. Now you're just trying to equivocate on the term "discrimination"; yes, the Boy Scouts discriminate on the basis of sex. The government *can* discriminate on the basis of sex in certain circumstances; they *can't* disc

I think there ought to be one US Scouting organization umbrella, and let the individual charter partners decide if they're going to have an all-boys, all-girls, or mixed unit.

The online archives of the Star-Ledger don't include photographs, so a NJ library is probably your best bet. This interview with James Dale says the photo was taken during the conference by the Star-Ledger: http://www.generationq.org/jdale.htm Q: How did your being Gay come out? JD: I was speaking at a conference. The School of Social Work had a conference for teachers and guidance counselors on how they could be better about Lesbian and Gay issues in their classrooms. I was nineteen at the time. The Star Ledger was there. I guess they photographed me. I didn't think too much

Here's the decision from Cornell's web site: http://supct.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/99-699.ZO.html The first part is the findings of fact section; I don't think either side disputed any of these findings: ... Dale applied for adult membership in the Boy Scouts in 1989. The Boy Scouts approved his application for the position of assistant scoutmaster of Troop 73. Around the same time, Dale left home to attend Rutgers University. After arriving at Rutgers, Dale first acknowledged to himself and others that he is gay. He quickly became involved with, and eventually became the copre

So you see it's not so much that the BSA refuses athiests, it's really more that athiests have refused the ideals of scouting. This is the same rationale that Restricted clubs used to exclude Jews. A practicing Catholic cannot be a Jewish Rabbi. Does that give him casue to hate Jews or to be hated by them. Of course not. The Jewish faith requires that to be a member or a leader in the faith you must share their belief system. That makes perfect sense to me. If the Catholic sues the synagogue should he expect to win? Of course not. (That by the way that was an analogy to the relation

But discrimination is discrimination regardless of what you are discriminationg against. This is called "equivocation"; it's a logical fallacy. HUD grants can discriminate on the basis of many things, such as economic status (many grants are for poor people); HUD grants cannot be used to discriminate on the basis of religion. You're trying to dismiss the whole issue by pretending all discrimination is the same; using your "logic", it would be OK if HUD grants could only be used by white people, since HUD discriminates on the basis of economic status, and that's just more discriminat