Marty_Doyle

I agree with NJ.

If He Who Should Not Be Named wasn't "dealt with" by the moderator, his compulsion to post would, in two to four days, have led him to seek another forum. Where they are enduring their own "Recent Unpleasantness".

I thought Sir Bob and the Boomtown Rats were from the other side of the Irish Sea from Eamonn....

NJ - "Recent Unpleasantness"? Is that what we are now calling it?

The "benefit" that we can get from some of postings in Issues and Politics is that there are people like Merlyn out there, who have contrary views of BSA. We, as leaders, need to be aware that opposing viewpoints exist, and (apologies to Ed) sometimes are more defensible and palatable to the general public (or Supreme Court) than BSA's.

We should be able to articulate responses (Hunt had a fairly good summation on the fourth page in the original posting, that rose above "Did so"-"Did not"), both on BSA's positions on these issues, and our own position, and how we reconile any differences. It will come up at some point in one's Scouting career.

Also, some of this is part of "Citizenship", that is supposed to be part of every program. There are dissenting views in this country, and we should learn to politely and respectfully debate them and learn from the discourse.

Of course, I still could use another 35 days without any "Philoposphy and Isms 101" postings.

scoutldr

Here is the article, from the Lawrence, Kansas Journal-World:

Derby crash exposes mercury, cheater

Cub Scout's father blamed for incident that closed school, cost $5,000 to clean up

By Mike Belt, Journal-World

Sunday, January 25, 2004

Scouts' honor went out the window at the annual Pinewood Derby race trials conducted by Cub Scout Pack 3072.

Somebody cheated.

During practice runs Friday evening prior to the competition at Quail Run School, one of the racers crashed and a vial of liquid mercury placed inside the car broke apart, splashing the toxic material on the floor, putting as many as 70 Cub Scouts and their parents at risk and prompting a lengthy cleanup.

Pre-race trials were stopped and the derby set for Saturday in the school's commons area was postponed.

"This was something that shouldn't have happened," said Bruce Eggers, Cub Scout pack leader.

No one would confirm who owned the pinewood car weighted with mercury intended to give it an edge on the downhill race course, but they are placing the blame on the Scout's father -- not the Scout.

"I think he's suffering the consequences," Eggers said of the parent.

Pinewood Derby cars are carved from a small block of wood. The pack's rules say that mercury and other liquids can't be used to add weight to the cars. The cars, subject to a five-ounce limit, are weighed before the race.

"It's too bad when a parent takes it to this extreme to win," said Larry Sinks, whose

7-year-old son, Mike, was planning to enter the race.

"I didn't like it," Mike Sinks said. "I was looking forward to it. I painted my car to

look like (NASCAR racer) Robby Gordon's car."

"I think it's a shame," said Kent Houk, who

worked with his 7-year-old son, Coleman, on

their car. "I'm sure there are lot of kids

disappointed."

About 70 Scouts made cars for the derby, Eggers

said, and they and their parents shuffled in and

out of the school throughout the evening before

the event was suspended.

Lawrence-Douglas County Fire & Medical

personnel were called to the school to contain

the mercury spill, which reportedly amounted to

about an ounce, Eggers said.

Parents and Scouts who had been at the school

and gone home were called and asked to bring

back the shoes they had worn so they could be

tested. Only one of the pairs of shoes was

thought to be contaminated enough not to be

returned to the owner, Eggers said.

From 10 a.m. to 2 p.m. Saturday, Haz-Mat

Response Inc. of Olathe cleaned the commons'

tile floor, used gauges to test the air and

vacuum fans to clear out the air, said Tom

Bracciano, director of operations and facility

planning for Lawrence public schools.

The Kansas Department of Health and Environment also had a representative at the school to monitor the cleanup.

KDHE and school officials will test the air in the

school again today to make sure there is no

trace of mercury. If, as expected, the building is clear, classes will be conducted Monday in the school at 1130 Inverness Drive, Bracciano said.

Gary Clapp, a chemist who has children attending Quail Run, said he was a bit concerned about the spill, but added that cleanup crews probably would do a good job.

"The only way it can be dangerous is if it is ingested through the skin or inhaled," Clapp said.

Mercury, a silvery, dense metallic liquid commonly used in thermometers, thermostats and switches, is considered toxic to the human nervous system.

When liquid mercury is spilled, it forms droplets that can accumulate in the tiniest spaces, then emit vapors into the air.

The cost of cleaning up the mercury at the school will be about $5,000, Bracciano said. The school district will foot the bill. He said he didn't know whether the district would try to recoup the cost.

"I don't think it's the (Scout) group's fault," Bracciano said.

Eggers said he was not aware of a similar event in the pack. The Scout whose car contained the mercury will be allowed to enter the derby when it is rescheduled.

WIth this year's Pinewod Deby rules, I attached a copy of a newspaper article (I may have gotten the link from this list) where one PWD car broke open and spilled mercury - added inside the car body to change the center of gravity as the car moved down the track - all over the school gym.

It pointed out to parents the somewhat absurd levels some people go to for a $4.95 plastic trophy.

As for design, we award a first-second-third medal in each rank, and a first-second-third trophy for the Pack. After much heated discussion in the Leader's meeting, it was agreed that there would be no limitation on how many awards a boy could win. The initial proposal was if a boy placed in the top three in the pack, then he would give up his den award, and the Scouts in the den would all move up a spot, with a new third place award.

This year, we invited the Scoutmasters and Boys Scouts from each of the three troops in town to the PWD. Mainly as a recruiting/publici relations visit. But we asked the Boy Scouts to form the judging committee for the design awards.

I was an observer only in their deliberations. About halfway through their voting, they started to eliminate or downgrade certain cars, because the Cub Scout couldn't have done that. I ponted out that a PWD was supposed to be a joint effort between dad and son. Their response back was that there should be progressively more involvement by the Cub Scout (and less by Dad) at each level. The best looking car came in fourth (and it was bviously done mostly by Dad). Most of these Boy Scoputs were somewhat younger, and therefore closer to Cubbing and PWD. Some more (delayed) retribution?

Having uninvolved external judges voting "double-blind" (the Boy Scouts voted by car number, and didn't know who they were voting for) forestalled what would have been a lot of complaining and criticism in previous years.

Every Cub Scout got a patch, a ribbon, and a participant certificate. This also lessens the "competitive juices" for a lot of boys.

True Yankee fans would probably stone him.

SR540Beaver, your post does bring up another issue, that is sort of related to camoflage.

how do units verify, if at all, that a Scout does need the financial assistnmace he or his parents may ask for?

Does a $40,000 SUV preclude any assistance? (I agree with your point FOG. I also think your descriptions related to it are getting more entertaining).

I thought ending up in the "gift" shop was now a design requirement for museums and theme parks (ala Disney).

I think fear of "failure" in front of one's child is a concern voiced to me a couple of times. Fits into EagleinKy's # 3.

My biggest problem has been overcoming the effects of a previous "bad" leader. The previous CM ran his own business, and that mindset flowed into how he ran the Pack. He did everything, and rarely asked for help. When he started announcing his eventual retirement (2 years in advance), it was delivered from this POV: "being CM is a lot of work, but if someone doesn't step up soon, the Pack will fold". He wasn't "bad", but his management style was not appropriate for Cub Scouts. Of course, no one volunteered immediately. It took me a year to decide to step up. And it turns out to be not as bad as he said.

Coupled with this was the Wolf leaders. Totally untrained, sporadic, irregular meetings, didn't fol,ow program, poorly planned meetings, with no visits from CM, and eventually only two out of twelve boys getting rank. When the two Wolf leaders (whose sons were the only ones to attain rank) announced that they were not returning, the entire den imploded. No one would agree to be a leader. "Look how hard the CM says it is. And the two Wolf leaders were so overworked. I can't do that." We eventaully lost them all and started off this year with no Bears. They were "bad" only because they were untrained and "un-supervised".

Most of the current leaders had little or no contact with the prevoius leadership. Therefore, no pre-conceived notions. Also, most have attended training. So, it has been easier. And we point to the "rookies" as an example of what a new parent can do.

I am planning on attending Sept-Oct. 2004.

(I got knocked out of last summer's WB first weekend by the great blackout. SWMBO felt that it was not a great time to be away from the family for three days - right after being stuck in the city for one night).

In our Council, units can get 30%-35%-40%, depending on whether or not they use Trail's End prizes(no, 5% more) and whether or not they meet Council's perfomance goals (attend Popcorn Training, submit a unit budget, submit a unit calendar, turn in popcorn money on time, etc)-(yes, 5% more).

The Council gets a cut, up to a total of 73% (less what the unit gets). They have all the hassle of ordering, co-ordinating, warehousing, getting prizes, etc.

It's an easy win-win.

(And sometimes, the little monsters are cute).

(This message has been edited by Marty_Doyle)

Everything FOG said, with bells on.

Our Council had four districts last year, and decided to split into five, by taking a piece of district b and a piece of district d. The new districts would be more in line with local school districts, so there was some logic behind the decision.

The problem was and is staffing.

No professional was on board until September, so the new district calendar still isn't finalized.

(Not the new DE's fault).

Most Boy Scout and Cub Scout district events are staffed by the same twenty or thirty people. Splitting two districts into three means you lose some of this critical mass of volunteers. Recruit adult volunteers early, to help staff things like Camporees and Klondike.

Training - There are four district training teams, and for the same reasons, a fifth has yet to be constituted. Not enough trained trainers to build a fifth team without raiding the existing teams.

We are not really hampered by this yet, but one of the reasons for the split was to give better/closer support to units, including more opportunities for training.

Roundtable - Half way through the year, the new district's monthly meeting day was changed. Attendance dropped. Firm this type of stuff up early - district roundtable meeting date, date of district Camporee/Klondike/PWD Championship/Webelos Woods/Cub Olympics/Tigermania, etc. Waiting just causes havoc with unit calendar coordination.

Don't forget all components of the program. We have a somewhat established Boy Scout series of committees in our new district, but nothing for Cub Scouts or Venturers. Our Pack stil plans on attending our old district Cub Scout events through the end of this year at least, and probably next year too. The district was supposed to be running it's own events as of January 1. Not happening yet at the Cub level.

Good luck.

I am of two minds on this.

If it was a Scout with some organic issue, that was a contributory factor to the disruptiveness, I would try and see if there could be some accomodation reached that would allow the Scout to participate, without causing too many problems for every one else.

But in other instances, maybe the Scout would need to go home.

And both of these may relate to the real world circumstance we are discussing.

Maybe that "Scout" was less able to endure five days of "time-out", and moved on to another troop.

(This message has been edited by Marty_Doyle)

Our Pack sold popcorn for the first time this year. Total sales exceeded $5K, and the Pack got commissions close to $2K. We ended up fourth in sales in our district. Another Pack, in our same town, sold over $15K (and netted over $5K). There are three other Packs in town, two who also participated in the Popcorn sale. So the "market" exists.

My daughter's troop sold about twice the dollar amount of cookie sales as we did popcorn sales. But they netted less (we were eligible for 40%). An important consideration from the unit level. Partly because the cookies require a higher % to go to the manufacturer than popcorn does. And the popcorn costs more per unit, meaning less units to sell to reach prize dollar limits. Important to the Cub Scouts. (Some might say that this is because the popocorn is overpriced. That may be true, but what is being sold is a chance to support Scouting, not popcorn per se).

I agree that the prizes at the low end were more geared towards Cubs.

But the popcorn sale is pretty much it for our Pack fundraising. The rest of the year can be spent fun-raising.

All in all, approximatley 111 hours wasn't too difficult.

I would say the fact that both The Adventures of Tom Saywer and The Adventures of Huck Finn consistently make the American Library Asssociation's list of top 100 challenged (to be removed from library shelves) books each year. Plus a number of court cases to remove them from public libaries in various venues across the country. A suit by the Pennsylvania NAACP to remove it, based upon Twains' use of certain "when published acceptable" colloquialisms to describe Jim, etc. would qualify it as non-PC.

I don't agree. But much of America might.(This message has been edited by Marty_Doyle)

I think my son has read most of the "current" popular books - Harry Potter, the Baudelaire sibling's Series of Unfortunate Events (the audio books narrated by Tim Curry are really enetertaining for long car trips). But he has also raided my boxes of old books still stored in the attic, which leans closer to what FOG mentioned. Jack London, R.L. Stevenson, Mark Twain, Jules Verne, the Hardy Boys, Ivanhoe, Three Musketeers, Man in the Iron Mask, some Horatio Hornblower, some Rafael Sabatini, Robin Hood (supplemented by a video of the Errol Flynn movie), and so on.... Mom now requires some prior review of the reading material, but he will devour most of it of given a chance. In conjuction with the movies, he has read The Hobbit and two thirds of the Rings triology by Tolkien.

An interesting idea in here. What books would one include in a modern day version of the Boy Scouts of America "Every Boy's Library", to fire up the boy's imaginations, and possibly hook them into Scouting?

Hardy Boys are kind of dated (would today's boys know what a roadster is?), and Tom Swift is even more dated. Tom Sawyer, Huck Finn and Mark Twain are considered politically incorrect.

Seton and Beard's early works are hard to obtain.

All of those Pee Wee Harris and Banner Boys and Boy Scouts in World War I stories are also kind of dated, and replaced by Indiana Jones.

What list would we develop to become a Cub or Boy Scout's summer reading list?

Congratulations!

Immediate recognition is not just for the boys.

FOG's post regarding a new version of "Every Boy's Library" notwithstanding....

48 hours plus 48 hours and counting.

24 days to go.

Ed -

Cub Scout leaders, in addition to YP, are supposed to take NLE (New Leader Essentials) and PS (Position Specific) Training to be considered "TRAINED". PST is really 5 different courses (Tiger Leader, Wolf/Bear Leader, Webelos Leader, Cubmaster and Committee). Together (NLE and PST), they are about 8 hours of training.

BALOO is supplemental, designed to train a person in the Pack leadership how to plan for Cub Scout age appropriate outdoor events (not just camping). It is fairly specific to the course objective, and usually runs around 7-8 hours. Very little of what is covered in BALOO is covered in NLE/PS, and when there is overlap, BALOO is more detailed.

WLOT is also supplemental, for Webelos den leaders (or Bear den leaders who plan to move up). This is supposed to show a Webelos den leader enough to allow him or her to take a Webelos den camping overnight. There is some overlap with what is covered in BALOO, on the planing, health/safety, sanitation, etc. issues, but much more hands on practical detail about actual camping. In our Council, it is about 15 hours, usually all day Saturday (8:30 am to 9pm), camp out Saturday night, and half day Sunday (done by noon).

You couldn't squeeze either BALOO or WLOT into NLE/PS without short changing the current course objectives.

My own personal opinion - there could be something in between BALOO (Introduction: Planning a Pack Outdoor Event) and WLOT (Advanced: Webelos Den Camping) that takes a little from each, and expands on some of the things fotoscout and I mentioned, to get Intermediate: Pack Camping. (I don't have a cute acronym for this yet.) Especially if there really is an emphasis on more outdoor activities for Cubs coming from National.

Thanks, Terry.

I second Eamonn's suggestion. 48 days, or two fortnights, whichever is longer.

Of course, I fear some might take the time to compose really long posts that can be cut and paste into a thread when the Issues and Politics section re-opens....

Our council Scout Shop requires the advancement reports for purchase of all Cub Scout rank badges and all Webelos activity badges. (The DE says that WABS do ot require an advancement form, since they don't get entered into any database by Council, but the Scout Shop still requires the form).

When I took over as Cubmaster, I inherited two boxes that contained enough rank badges, arrow points, WABs, and belt loops to get me through the next two years. My problem is the reverse. I hand in advancement reports, but buy no badges. This confuses the manager of the Scout Shop no end.

The former CM told me that forexampl,e, at a Pack Night, he would buy six Bear badges to award. Only four Bears would show up at the meeting. He tried to award at the next Pack meeting, or give to the den leader. But no matter what he did, he still seemed to end up with an extra badge.

Multiply that by a couple of years, and I have an

large inventory. Helps this year's budget.

Solves the duplicate badge for a second shirt issue.

And also covers for those "rare" occaions where the DL says four boys need to get an award, and at the PAck Night, there are five.

Plan B - I work in Manhattan. If I go to the GNYC Scouty Shop, they will sell me pretty much everthing (never thought to ask about Eagle) and don't want my advancement forms. (They also don't want Brooklyn's or Queen's advancement forms either, which is strange, but that is their rules).

Ya know, amazingly enough, I agree with Bob, too. I am not advocating Cub Scouts going on long hikes deep in the woods on unmarked trails, where orienteering and compass skills are a necessity.

At our district Akela Calls camping event last year, I know of a Bear leader (from another pack in town) that had decided to take his boys on an early Sunday morning hike around the pond (to see ducks and other birds). He had bought a map of the Scout Reservation at the camp store, which had the trails marked.

You know what's coming. He didn't really know how to read a topo map. He didn't really know how to use a compass. He didn't know that different color tail blazes meant something. The den wandered onto the wrong trail (a more difficult one) and were "dis-oriented" for a short while. Every got back safely, and the boys just thought it was part of the hike.

Would BALOO have helped this leader? Maybe not.

When he talked about it afterwards, there was a lot of

"I didn't know....", or "I didn't realize...."

Maybe if he had attended some training that exposed him to some of these things, where he could realize his limitations, the experience could have been avoided.

Like fotoscout said, kost of my BALOO training revolved arounrd planning and health/safety, and not as much on things like planning hikes, which was coveered very quickly at the end of the day.

To a certain extent, we are talking about common sense, which you can't teach.

And, while I agree with the guidelines against map/compass activities for Cub Scouts, I have a problem with the dichotomy inherent in the offering of the Academic and Sports program "Map and Compass" belt loop and pin, available to Tigers through Webelos.

Bob -

This is a theoretical exercise about what do we think could be added to a BALOO type course to avoid the false impression that "now you can camp" that someone might walk out of BALOO with. I've taken BALOO and thought it was very good in what it was supposed to impart. What Laurie asked in the initial post was what could be added that could improve a BALOO type course. And recall the original genesis of the thread - someome who took BALOO and thought it meant he (or she) could take a den camping.

There could be something in between BALOO and WLOT, that addresses many of the issues that fotoscout enumerates above. More of the planning aspects could be expanded in a revised BALOO by shifting the camping practical stuff to the new intermediate course.

This of course assumes leaders will attend, trainers will volunteer to traIin, a place will be available for training, etc.

And by the way, "Hug A Tree" is a course for chilren about what to do if they become separated from their group in the woods. The first thing the kids are taught is to stop, by hugging the biggest tree they can see, until they calm down. It was started in California by a family who's son got separated on a hike, but kept walking, away from the searchers, and eventually died from exposure.

I said, paraphrasing, some kind of basic first aid and something like the Hug-a-tree program should be offered and required. Map/compass/GPS should be offered for leaders, but may be overkill, given where our Cubs usually camp.

I don't think it would need to be required. But, one of my den leaders did get lost going from Westchester to Yankee Stadium (when we gave out fairly detailed maps and driving instructions, for a 25 mile essentially straight drive), so I would be a little concerned if he decided to take his den for a hike on the council's Scout Reservation. But that's just me.

And having the opportunity to learn a new skill is always a good thing, no? My impression of what Laurie asked was what else would one want to see in something like BALOO that may make a leader better prepared to lead a campout, at the Cub Scout level.

Based on past experience, and wisdom gleaned from these forums and a couple of lists, I planned this year similar to what TwoCubDad said.

FOS at B&G in February, early in the evening, before skits, awards, entertainment.

Over the past four years, there have been three FOS clunkers and one good FOS presenation - last year, by the brand new DE, Kevin. He is an Eagle Scout, in his late 20s. Could relate to the kids easier than a 50s something Scouter. Brought coffee mugs for the IH and COR. Had some award to give to the Pack - Summertime? Taught the boys a cheer. And had a funny, short speech about why Scouting is important and how FOS fits into funding Scouting. In and out in 15 minutes with a bunch of pledges and checks.

We were moved to a different district this year, so wouldn't be getting Kevin. Called the new new DE. Told him the date and how last year's went.

No one showed up at the B&G. Now they are scrambling to get on a Pack Night agenda soon (the Cub Scout camping director also never showed up at B&G to talk about Cub/Webelos resident/day camps, and is part of the scramble).

Next year, I'm putting them down at Pinewood Derby, in January. If they miss that, they still have a shot at B&G.

Pack Nights aren't a bad venue, but PWD and B&G have almost every Cub and his family, somewhat captive (sitting down), plus extended family. More donor prospects.

You live and you learn.

Shortly after taking BALOO, I participated in WLOT (Webelos Leader Outdoor Training), followed by attending Safe Swim Defense and Safety Afloat, and then a basic First Aid course at the Red Cross.

In my council, there was more of an emphasis on the planning of an event, with some pratical detail, at BALOO, which was one 8 hour day. WLOT was a two day training event, with an overnight camp out in between. There was much more information about the practical realities of camping with Webelos (which would also apply to Packs) in the two day course.

I try to get the leaders to take both in tandem, because there is reptition of the planning/health & safety aspects and much more practical advice in that combination. Only the current Webelos leaders have done this.

I think that at a minimum, a basic first aid course, including child CPR, should also be required. Not as part of BALOO, but as supplemental training required before any adult leader takes the boys "into the woods". Something like Hug-A-Tree should also be incorporated, again as supplemental training, but required. Basic map and compass and/or GPS should also be offered. The leaders should know what to do if someone gets lost or injured. There should also be more of a "practicuum" on appropriate medical forms, local tour permits, etc. that may be necessary for campouts, that seemed to be glossed over.

The above may be overkill, since Cubs camp out in fairly defined areas, not deep back country, but it is best to "Be Prepared".

Just my .02.