Marty_Doyle

What does you Pack do, historically?

What is the PAck year?

Ours follows the school year - September to June. We plan Pack summertime events for June, July and August. A pack picnic in June, after the June Pack Night, which we treat as a graduation. Cubs move up to the next rank at that time. (The Tigers have actually had their own gradustion at a district event in May (a tradition left over from when Tigers were not really part of the Pack)).

Most Cub Scouts have earned their rank in the period from B&G (in February) through graduation. Sometimes earlier. Sometimes later. The Pack will allow boys to work on the rank associated with their current rank over the summer, as long as we know in advance, but the rank should be earned by the following September Pack Night, since the boy has moved up in grade and therefore rank. They start the next rank, at the choice of the den, either in September, or after graduation, usually related to wheteher the boys are going to summer camp.

After rank has been earned, there are still arrow points, Academic & Sports belt loops and pins, religious emblems, BSA Family, World Conservation, Conservation Good Turn, Leave No Trace, Crime Prevention, Emergency Preparedness and US Heritage awards that can be earned at pretty much every level by Cub Scouts. Webelos can earn more activity badges, aiming for Heavy Shoulder and Super Achiever awards.

Summertime is usually a little less structured, due to vacations, summer camps, etc. If you can continue to get most of the boys to meet weekly, work out with the CM which path you will follow. Also, look into the National Summertime Award for the den as well as the National Den Award, if you are active the whole year.

Dan -

I think it was Col. Potter who used to refer to Frank Burns as a "horse's patoot", referring to the posterior regions. "Patuty", I guess, is an alternate spelling of the dimunutive (similar to Thomas Seaton being an alternate spelling of Ernest Thompson Seton).

Laurie's a rock (saxa or hoya?), OGE is a traitor, the entire hierarchy and membership of the Roman Catholic Church (guess Eastern Rites are safe) is "wimpy" and knows nothing of agape, all women are evil, no one on this board is knowledgable or educated, et cetera.

Wheeler has the zeal of the true believer. He has the "big picture" and we do not. He will reveal it to us at some point in the future (meaning we will have many more of these posts to slog through). And he thinks that when he does, we and, by extension, BSA, will be converted to his world-view.

But we, the Scouters and Scouts who post/visit here, are also true believers, in Scouting. We are mostly volunteers, of both sexes, covering a wide spectrum of political beliefs, religious backgrounds, attention to the detail of BSA policies, etc. We are not homogeneous; we most often agree to disagree. Given that, one final post will not move all of us anywhere. (Except maybe to e-applause).

He will not convert us; we will not convert him.

But these threads have contained interesting and thoughful responses. Sometimes humourous ones, too. And on rare occasion, some of Wheeler's posts have had an idea buried in them that could lead to an engrossing intellectual discourse. But they are wrapped up in all of the other baggage,and it isn't worth the effort.

It is like someone said - these threads are like a car wreck - some people have to slow down. I know I shouldn't respond. I keep telling myself not to. But I am weak. I am really going to try not to. I will continue to browse through for the entertainment value (which is of course, nihilistic), but wiill strive mightily not to post.

Ave atque vale.

You know, KS, I was just thinking that those metallic kilt-like things that Hollywood always depicts the Spartans at Thermopylae wearing (probably historically inaccurate) look like they would be of better quality and last longer in the outdoors when compared to the green uniform pants.......

oops, I am being flippant and childish.

I think one of the issues is "what makes it a Pack camp out?" Some Cub Scout reality.

I am a Cubmaster, have taken all appropriate training, including BALOO and WLOT. If Its Me (the Wolf den leader in my Pack) came to me and asked (it's usually been more like told me) the Wolf den is going camping, what I would do (even though I know Its Me has completed BALOO) is bring in one of the Webelos leaders, who are also BALOO and WLOT trained, and the three of us would go over the planning aspects of the campout.

I would then check my calendar and have the Webelos leader check his calendar to see if either of us could attend attend the campout. But thatnis because I am a belt and suspenders kind of guy.

I would announce it to all the den leaders and Pack as a Pack family camping event at the next leader meeting and Pack Night. (I don't know if Its Me's CM did this).

Whichever BALOO trained leader was available to attend the camput would sign the tour permit and then attend the campout.

If for some reason, no leader but Its Me could attend, and only the Wolf den camps out, it is still a Pack campout, and I manipulated nothing.

50% or less attendance at some Pack events is not an uncommon occurrence in the Cub Scouting world.

However, in our Pack, the Wolf, Bear and Tiger dens have no parent who is BALOO trained (yet), so either the Webelos leaders or myself help in the planning, complete the LTP, and attend.(I think BALOO and YP trained adult attendance at the camping event is a Council added regulation).

Since we attend the campout with our sons, there is nominally more than one den represented. This is not done to "subvert" the rules, but because our sons just assume if one of us leaders is going camping with Scouts, then they are going too.

Eamonn could come visit me (I would welcome that anyway) and we could go visit the UC together (he's one of my MCs). There is no attempt to deceive here.

If TwoCubDad came to me wanting to camp out with his son's Bear den, given the level of trained leadership in the Den, I would do the same thing.

Convert it into a Pack event, and go ahead with the campout. It happens all the time. The Webelos DL wanted to take his den to Yankee Stadium, the Wolf DL wanted to take her den to West Point. They have no clue about LTPs. So, we announced two new Pack events, taught them about tour permits, filed them with Council and away they went (in both cases with Scouts from other dens, but it doesn't always happen that way).

You're evil.

Of course, childishness may not be so bad....didn't somebody link that to entry into heaven (Matt. 18:3)?

OGE -

I really want to hear from Outdoor Thinker if you sing as well as you type?

Being able to quote someone else seems to have acquired a new level of importance on the forums , so here is a quote:

"Scouting answered a boy's craving for fun and adventure. But it's appeal ran deeper than that, for it also spoke directly to a boy's self-respect. Instead of imposing a lot of rules, Scouting put a boy on his honor and trusted him to do his best. It encouraged him to follow his own special interests and discover his own unique abilities. It asked him to use his skills and knowledge to help others. And it challenged him to take on a man's responsibilities. Scouting took boys seriously, and that was the real secret of its enormous appeal."

Russell Freedman, Scouting with Baden-Powell, 1967

Here's another one, from B-P himself:

"If you take up Scouting in that spirit, you will be doing something. Take it up, not merely because it is good fun, but because by doing so you will be preparing yourself to be a good citizen not only of your country but of the whole world.

Then you will have in you the truest spirit of patriotism, which every boy ought to have if he is worth his salt."

"Campfire Yarn No. 2. What Scouts Do."

Baden-Powell, Scouting for Boys, 1908

No program can make "a boy into a man" (shades of Tim Curry in Rocky Horror), however we define that, unless the boy shows up.

What do youth want? We all know - knives, fire, axes. Camping out. Hiking. Swimming. Pinewood Derbies with their dads. FUN AND ADVENTURE. That's why they fill out (or get their parents to fill out) applications to join a pack, a troop, a crew, a ship.

And as leaders, we have to develop an interesting, year round program that meets these "wants", to keep the youth coming back.

When they are there, they learn the Cub Scout Promise and Law of the Pack. The Scout Oath and Law. The Venturing Oath and Code. Leadership skills. They develop character. They build physical and mental skills. They are exposed to new ideas and new experiences, that might lead to a new hobby or a field of employment. They become more self-confident, more self-reliant and have better self-esteem. They learn how to become better citizens of their country, and ohmigosh, of the world. Maybe even as "peace scouts".

That's what it is all about.

But all the words aren't worth a tinker's dam if the youths aren't there. That's why fun and adventure is so important.

(I said youths. Scouting in the US is mainly boys. But it includes girls and women, as youth members and leaders. There have been girls in Scouting from the very beginning. There were Girl Scouts at the Crystal Palace Rally in 1909 (see Jeal's biography of B-P). And who started the Girl Guides? And was friendly with Daisy Low and led her to found what became the GSUSA?

I have no problem with girls and women in Scouting, because obviously, B-P didn't).

Right now, my son isn't interested in Aristotle or Plato, unless you can get Viggio Mortensen to play him in a movie, along with the attendant horses and swordplay. But he is interested in the fun and adventures he and his buddies have as Webelos Scouts, who are crossing over to a troop this year. (And my daughter is in Girl Scouts, but she is thinking about becoming a Boy Scout when she turns 14, "because they go real camping"). The fact that they are absorbing the "lifetime values and developing ethical character as expressed in the Oath and Law" (to paraphrase the BSA vision statement for Cub Scouts) is just part of the design and icing on the cake.

If you don't understand this, then you don't understand Scouting.(This message has been edited by Marty_Doyle)

I have always viewed people like trial lawyers and heart surgeons as so self confident about their abilities that they can appear arrogant. It might even be a pre-requisite. And to a certain extent, their personality dictates their choice of employment (or maybe it's vice versa). So, that's where I chalked that part of your post up to. No apology really necessary.

I suspected that you were drafting a thesis on-line in these forums. Do we get to grade the final version?

Continuously? Oh, joy. Laurie's a rock, OGE is a traitor, and so much more ...... to look forward to.

I suspected that you were drafting a thesis on-line in these forums. Do we get to grade the final version?

Continuously? Oh, joy. Laurie's a rock, OGE is a traitor, and so much more ...... to look forward to.

I was at a University of Scouting this weekend, and it was emphasized in two different classes that National is shortly going to recommend that Cub Scouts get outdoors more often. The assumption is that all dens are meeting weekly (emphasis on assumption), and therefore the third den meeting each month should involve an outdoor event.

This recommendation is based upon a perceived retention problem in Cub Scouting, and a series of "exit interviews" where the Cubs who left said it was because they thought they were going camping in Cub Scouts and didn't.

These outdoor den events are in addition to pack planned events, so when I asked about the issue of this thread, we were told that there would be changes in training forthcoming. There was a representative of the national Cub Scouting committee from Irving at one of the Q&A sessions that I unfortunately missed.

So, in answer to Ed, still no answer.

I wish I had these postings on Saturday, to frame my question better. But given the suggested emphasis on outdoor activities at the den level, maybe there will be an answer soon.

NJ -

I agree with you on what the boys get out of it being driven by age.

The Pack has a history of one "big" pack event each year - lock ins at a Museum or Aquarium, or camp ins at a semi-military/historical site.

When my son was a Wolf, we camoped out by the submarine display in Groton. It was "cool".

When my son was a Bear, we camped in on the Massachusetts. Again, on the surface, it appeared that it was just "cool". But then my son started taking history books out of the library. He asked his aunt, who was going to Hawaii, to bring him back things from Pearl Harbor. He wrote a report on the attack on Pearl Harboror school. He bought and built a model of a battleship. We are not a military family by any stretch. He has some uncles who served in the Gulf War, but do not make a big deal of it.

He eventually moved on to baseball cards and Lord of the Rings (my wife was worried about his fascination with things military for a while).

But the contact, in the context of "having fun", with WWII veterans on the ship sparked an interest in something he wasn't interested in before.

Which is what activity badges, and merit badges, and large parts of the whle Boy Scout program are ultimately about. While the boys (or youths) are having fun, they are being exposed to and learning things that we hope they will absorb.

I was pleased that it happened that way.

He would like to go on the Massachusetts year (and the camping out in the outfield at the Renegades game this summer), even though he will cross over to a troop this year, because it's "cool". Maybe he'll learn something again.(This message has been edited by Marty_Doyle)

I'm hurt, OGE.

And as for Wheeler's decidely un-Scout-like comment about OGE, I think it is time for an appropriate quote from a friend of BSA:

"It is not the critic who counts, nor the man who points out where the strong man stumbled, or where a doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man in the arena whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood, who strives valiantly, who errs, and who comes up short again and again, who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause. The man who at best knows the triumph of high achievement and who at worst, if he fails, fails while daring greatly, so that his place will never be with those cold timid souls who never knew victory or defeat."

---Teddy Roosevelt

Those willing to invest their time and efforts working with youth are in the arena.

OGE-

Illegitimati non carborundum

As if you would.....

BORG. I knew it.

Our Pack has camped over on the Battleship Massachusetts in Battleship Cove, Falls River, Mass. (http://www.battleshipcove.org/) approximately every third year.

The Cub Scouts love it - in addition to the Massachusetts, there is a destroyer, submarine, Russian/East German(?) cruise missile ship, PT boats and more.

The cost and schedule are about the same as the New Jersy.

As NJ pointed out, back and neck pains, plus essentially no sleep all night long are the complaints from Scouters and parents. But the boys love it.

OGE -

Don't slander the Jesuits and Christian Brothers. They would ask one to "define your terms" first and come to agreement on what all the terms mean. That has not been done at any time in these threads.

And I think wheeler telling us to get back to the thread is somewhat hilarious.

Whatever funds were expended by BSA on this case would have been better spent "making a case" why people should directly donation to BSA rather than through an intermediary, to insure that the full value of one's intended donation makes it to the organization one wants to donate to, as saltheart ponted out.

I don't see how BSA lost any first amendment rights - they could still solicit people for donations, just not through the United Way.

The answer may just be to build up the internal fundraising arm of the BSA, beyond FOS, to a real "Development" area, and avoid delaing wwith organizations like the United Way.

Whatever funds were expended by BSA on this case would have been better spent "making a case" why people should directly donation to BSA rather than through an intermediary, to insure that the full value of one's intended donation makes it to the organization one wants to donate to, as saltheart ponted out.

I don't see how BSA lost any first amendment rights - they could still solicit people for donations, just not through the United Way.

The answer may just be to build up the internal fundraising arm of the BSA, beyond FOS, to a real "Development" area, and avoid delaing wwith organizations like the United Way.

Good golly, Terry, I never knew you had so much power!

You must be a Red Sox fan too, because I am having problems getting to the Yankees site to try and get tickets for me and my son!

From our fellow Scouters across the pond:

Ralph Reader - Mr Gang Show

Ralph Reader was born in Crewkerne in Somerset on May 25, 1903. As a young man, he moved to America where he became a leading light on Broadway. It was here that he developed his performing, writing, directing, dancing and other theatrical skills that rightly earned him the title of 'The Kid Dance Director".

It was during his time in New York that he worked with the legendary Al Jolson, who had the greatest impact on his life in the theatre.

In 1928, he returned to Britain and starred in the musical 'Good News'. Ralph specialised in choreography and directed the ensemble for many large West End shows, including musicals presented by Ivor Novello at the Theatre Royal, Drury Lane. He also created the dances for a few film musicals in the 1930's starring the great Jessie Matthews. During World War 2, he was the creator and driving force behind the famous RAF Gang Shows, from which graduated a string of stars such as Peter Sellers, Tony Hancock, Dick Emery and many more.

Despite all this fame and fortune, he remained a loyal member of the Scout Movement and it was

in 1932 when his life changed forever, when he produced the first Gang Show, entitled "The

Gang's all Here!" This one-off fundraising event for the London Scout Council's campsite (Downe)

rapidly grew into a world-wide network of Gang Shows that we recognise and love today.

It is often said that, "every night of the year, somewhere in the world a Gang Show is playing".

Over the years, Ralph wrote hundreds of songs and numerous sketches that are used by Gang Shows everywhere. In 1974, Ralph, a man in his 70's, decided it was time to slow down and wrote and produced the 'Farewell London Gang Show', which was staged at the Gaumont State Theatre, London, to packed houses and tremendous acclaim.

Many awards and presentations were bestowed on Ralph throughout his life in recognition of his

commitment to Scouting and to the world of entertainment. Some of these awards included the

MBE and subsequently the CBE. He was made a Hon. Citizen of the State of Illinois in 1961, and

was awarded the Bronze Wolf from the World Scout Association in 1975.

Ralph died in 1982, but his everlasting legacy is the Gang Show. Ralph's unmistakable style of

writing and the talent of Scouts and Guides the world over prove that the greatest youth

entertainment the world has ever known continues to keep "riding along on the crest of a wave!"

wherever, whenever, a Gang Show is performed.

Good to see the library's open.

The title of the article is "THE CHANGING ROLE OF WOMEN IN CUB SCOUTING". I guess "A Sociological Evolution" could be considered a subtitle.

Missing from the above post is the long list of chronological highlights from 1930 to 1984 that make up the bulk of the article.

All of this can be found on the Virtual Cub Leader's Handbook site, an excellent source for Cub Scout leaders to draw from. However, it is not an official Boy Scouts of America site. It is a resource put up and maintained by a fellow volunteer. The article cited is also not an official publication, but contains "portions excerpted from "History of Cub Scouting"", a 1987 Boy Scout publication. This, to me, means that the article may contain the author's opinions.

The fact that the women who are involved in Cub (and all levels of Boy) Scouting ARE involved, as opposed to the post's author, is something to be commended. If one was in Cub Scouts in the sixties or earlier, one probably only had "Den Mothers" (because all of the fathers were at work). Didn't seem to scar us.

I second Fuzzy Bear on the recent slowness of the site.

Then again, the "Web site not responding" message usually appears when I try to open threads in the "Issues and Politics" forum, with philosophical subjects, probably including at least one doctortal dissertation length post (with footnotes and citations).

Would the length of a post affect the ability to open the thread, since I am able to open threads with more, shorter postings?

Thanks Terry.