le Voyageur

49 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

Well there is the Boot Monument to Benedict Arnold .

"Benedict Arnold is not mentioned by name on the Boot Monument; the monument thus serves as a form of damnatio memoriae."  

And, it can be said that in Alcade, New Mexico the statue of Don Juan de Onate has been rendered to that of damnatio memoriae, too...... btw, Arnold didn't betray his country, a cause yes.  But, you can't betray a country that didn't exist.  Just a thought....

On 11/28/2019 at 11:45 AM, JoeBob said:

It's hard to find a Founding Father who never owned a slave. 

Not really.... John Quincy Adams comes to mind readly, as well as a host of Founding Mothers....

On 11/20/2019 at 5:01 PM, Jackdaws said:

I had a problem with my sons most recent summer camp and the rifle & archery classes he took.   They only marked off 2H for Rifle. I know they did more than that as I went up there on Thursday to watch him shoot.   They didn't mark off a lot of things that you even have to do before you even make it to the firing line.   I called the camp back afterwards and the lady said she can only answer for what was put on the print out.  Really?  Such crap.  So now my son will effectively have to start all over when he decides to find a new counselor for it. 

They also didn't mark off much for Archery.   He made the arrow & bow string and they didn't mark it off along with several other things.

This tells me that the Camp's Program Director isn't doing his/her job in supervising the program staff. Nor, reviewing the class sign off sheets on a daily basis, seems obvious that the Program Director isn't holding daily progress reports with Unit Leaders, or keeping the Camp Director up to speed concerning under performing staff....

As I recall, back in the 70's BSA was hard on the ropes due to an unpopular war, declining numbers, a negative image and program changes that the rank and file were unprepared for. But, overtime National was able to save it's self.  The waters may be rough, but the ship is still afloat.  I've a feeling it's still too early for the eulogy, and that the storm can be endured...

Use wedges 

16 minutes ago, TAHAWK said:

"progressive ideas"  

Aye, was a fearin' anither ay those typo beasties hud hidden in th' brambles...huzzahs to ya

On 11/19/2019 at 2:16 AM, The Latin Scot said:

 

I notice that the impending separation of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Boy Scouts of America has garnered much discussion........

You've a decision to make come 31 Dec 2019.... what thoughts have you given to this? ..... to stay the course as an LDS and fall in line and move on. Or, locate an organization (which could be far less conservative then your Church) that will charter an LDS unit (which may well  put that unit outside the direct control of your Church, which could subject those scouts to progressive ideals that your Church is in conflict with).  

12 hours ago, yknot said:

As far as I can see, Scouters are sad to see these kids exiting the program and I hope it's clear that they will always be welcomed back should they decide they and their families miss Scouting.

Well said....

8 minutes ago, Pale Horse said:

To be fair, I don't think the gender divides of the 50's and 60's was isolated to any one religion in particular.

True...but, some religions and individuals tended to the extreme...and now, we are way off topic and out in the weeds....   

52 minutes ago, The Latin Scot said:

You make it sound like raising children is somehow a "lesser responsibility" than holding the priesthood, when the two are equally important and are, in fact, shared by both sexes. Also, this is a MASSIVE generalization of an era that my parents also grew up in, and their picture of the times is very different from yours. This kind of depiction is one-sided and derogatory towards the religion of a number of members here. If you have qualms about the faith that is your right and privilege, but it's un-Scoutlike to express such demeaning and biased portrayals here. This is a forum about Scouting, not the culture of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Let's stay on topic.

You're being way too defensive, nor do you appear wanting to accept that others have experiences that you find distasteful being that they conflict with your world view....nor, is it a "massive generalization" since this was the way it was during this era.  Sadly, I lack a "wayback machine" to provide you with a tour of these times, the 50's and 60's  where the gender dividing lines were real and absolute. In a way, your comments remind me of those elders that set at my "Court of Love" attempting to admonish me for my honesty.  However, I wear my excommunication as a badge of honor as I was evicted out of the fold by this guy ....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evan_Mecham     None the less, I'll continue to speak my truths per the opening of the Desiderata....

51 minutes ago, Pale Horse said:

I know next to nothing about the Mormon religion. Can you expand on these fundamental differences between the sexes that demand they not be co-mingled? Do Mormon children go to single-sex schools? 

During my time (the David O McKay era....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_O._McKay) men would go to Priesthood, and women to the ward's kitchen to make sandwiches and kool aid and tend the children ....https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism_and_women    Everyone knew, and had their place and the lines were never crossed....

Got a little rush last night, had to cut it short...to continue. So, why these points?   Here, the goal  and purpose is to lay out the general requirements that will allow me to build a long range hunting rifle that is very accurate. Some may change later on in the build.  Basically,  the ideal is to follow nearly in the same steps as Jacob and Samuel Hawken who patterned their "Plains" and "Mountain" rifles on the 1803 Harpers Ferry. By marrying three different patterns (Poor Boy, Harpers, Whitworth) the best elements of each can be incorporated into a robust platform lacking the bells and whistles seen in such fragile rifles as the Pennsylvania's,.  Using polygonal rifling (Whitworth), and a barrel length of 32 inches a 105 grain charge of 2F should send a  54 caliber, 430 grain Maxi Ball out to about 800 yards plus at 1200 fps. Though this type of rifling is noted for fouling, it's of no great concern as it can be used to one's advantage to better seat the round (fouling shots).  However, most will start off with an off the rack muzzle loader (hopefully not an inline) . Regardless of the make or caliber,  be it a percussion, or a flintlock, the most important primary elements to consider are the barrel's proof markings (safety)  length of pull, and drop at comb (fit). And, that the sights are parallel to, and centered over the bore line (accuracy).

Quote

Discuss what points you would consider in selecting a muzzleloading rifle.

My points

1.    A full stock Southern Style Poor Boy rifle based on the 1803 Harpers Ferry Rifle. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harpers_Ferry_Model_1803

2.    Siler Lock (flint lock)

3.    Barrel - 4140 CroMo steel, 32 inch, 54 caliber octagonal barrel,  1:48 right twist polygonal rifling... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitworth_rifle,   bore line correct to 3 decimal places.

4.    Walnut stock, Iron furniture

5.    Open sights.  Rear sight set at center of balance

6.    Lollipop Tang

7.    Set Triggers

8.    Straight Cast

9.    Drop at Comb - 1.5 inches

10.  Drop at Heel - 2 inches

11.   Length of Pull - 13.5 inches

12.  Eye Relief from Rear Sight to Nose of Comb - 13.5 inches

13.  Trigger guard sized for gloved hand           

My own research dovetails with Smithsonian's in that I can safely say...."we don't know'.  About the best we can do is to state, is that the triangle fold first appeared about 1917.  Trying to glean reasons from 18th and 19th century quartermaster inventories, as well as those of militia units were dead ends.  Old Glory was simply folded the same as a bed sheet, or rolled up.

However, there is a hypothesis, which is, is that we're dealing with a Mason's  hat trick (no disrespect intended being that it was hugely clever if this is the case). The first clue can be found on the back of the One Dollar Bill.  Additionally, an early Jewish - Christian symbol was the chevron and circle which can be seen on the Talpot tomb,  supposedly symbolizing the House of David. However, the symbol is far older then that harking back to the Egyptians where this symbol represented protection, royal power and good health.

I say, why not!  But, take it up a notch where the Camp uses their Camp Commissioners as "traffic cops" in that  they write citations for infractions of pre establish safety rules.  Those cited would then appear before a judge (Program Director) at the Camp's "traffic court".....just my 2 cents, and thinking out loud

6 hours ago, The Latin Scot said:

Much of your information is incorrect, and I must take a moment to clarify the false allegations of this post. Clearly you have a vendetta against our people, so I must as a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints counter your claims so that the facts can be weighed to the benefit of the members here and the discussion at hand. We have a PROFOUND respect for the separation of church and state - but that idea is not, as some might assume, the right of the state to prohibit religions from taking political stand on issues that have moral and civil ramifications. You need to study what the separation of church and state really means. It does NOT mean that the two exist in separate worlds. Rather, it is a means of living in harmony together. Religions need government - and government needs religion. They cannot be utterly divorced, nor were they meant to be. 

The concept of freedom of religion, including the right to practice that religion, means that we have to right to our values and principles, and to proclaim them as well. To use our pulpits as platforms to declare our moral positions and effect social change is not, in fact, illegal. Nothing the church did during Prop 8 was illegal - I know, because I was there, and I was a part of it. The freedom of religion as defined in the constitution protects our right to preach our values and to work to effect social change and preserve social values. We participate in civil discourse entirely within the parameters of the law, and for you to make these broad false claims in this forum is both inflammatory - and off-topic. So let's get back to our relationship with the BSA, and leave Prop 8 to a discussion elsewhere, where the true facts can be considered without bias.

As for our position in the BSA (since that IS what we are discussing here), there was never any "punitive" action taken by the church - we do expect our youth organizations to support our beliefs and standards, and when the BSA started making dramatic changes to its central values and membership standards, we had to make a choice between accepting these changes and being complicit with the fundamental change of moral ideology that would express, or standing by our beliefs and values at the cost of our long and treasured partnership. We held to our beliefs, yet also tried to do whatever we could to save that partnership, because we have loved it and helped millions of boys through it - but we can't cling to something forever when it just doesn't align with our core values anymore.

The BSA, on the other hand, did not "stand on principle" - the very opposite - it changed and conformed and let itself be swept along by the tide of current social and political ideologies. It didn't "refuse to be exhorted" by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - first of all, because that's not really what the word exhort means (I suppose you mean something else but can't quite ascertain what it might be) - secondly, because in our day The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints needs a global program that adheres to the values and ideals for which we stand and in which we believe - and the BSA no longer fits that description. Our principles have stayed the same. Those of the BSA have been adapted to fit the current climate. If anybody moved, it was they.

On top of all this, our new program has finally been released in tremendous detail, and it is exciting, inspired, and can be shared by the millions of Latter-day Saint youth all over the world. Youth who wish can use Scouting as part of their own personalized program of goals and learning if they wish, but now they have a whole host of options before them, with a program that will build faith and help them grow physically, spiritually, socially and intellectually. With all this in mind, BSA just doesn't fully serve the needs of our youth anymore, and so we have amicably, and with great love and tenderness, closed our official partnership. But as another one of our church leaders also said, "we have been and will always be friends." If there is resentment, then it is unwarranted. 106 years of partnership was a wonderful thing for BOTH of our organizations, but it cannot have been expected to last forever. Why this is happening no longer merits discussion. It's happening, so let us part ways as friends, and move on with love and kind feelings and hopes that both organizations will continue to thrive and grow in the future. 

The youth of today deserve to see with these changes faith and goodwill from both parties. Even if you have doubts, or concerns, or even fear or resentment - put on a smile, then look back with fondness, look forward with courage, and press on with hope - for their sakes. In the end we'll all be the better for it.

As one who spent 30 years of my life as a TBM (true blue Mormon) before being excommunicated, I've a perspective that you lack based on research and experience thus the reason for my comments. But, I do respect your vigorous defense of your faith. All I ask is that at least you make an effort to explore my comments with your own research independent of what you're being told by the Mormon church.

1 hour ago, SubSM said:

All this talk of drunken sailors... it's like y'all have met some before.

Revenue neutral is the best way to go.

 

Mike

Shore Patrol LPO - Subic

They've been burning money at Betchel like drunken sailors in a liberty port.  Should of saved a few bucks  and supported a nearby by Council that has 16 000 acres of playground... 

I'll have to disagree....When it comes to the social agenda, the Mormon Church has never respected separation of church and state. This course of action that the Mormon hierarchy decided to pursue was purely punitive,  their original intent was to force BSA to back down from social changes that they strongly disagreed with. Recall Prop 8, California's Equal Rights amendment where the Mormon church illegally used the pulpit and deceptively named grassroots groups to enlist supporters against the amendment.  It should be obvious that the Mormon church placed the BSA in a no win situation... to either conform to Mormon values to keep the dollars flowing into BSA coffers; or, to adjust the program to current societal changes and loose LDS support.  As I see it, BSA took the right course by standing on principle and refusing to be exhorted by the LDS   

Day 4 of a bike trek we were headed into Angel Camp, one of the groups more daring riders lost control, careened into and flipped over  a barb wire fence landing on a fair size Timber Rattler.  Luck was on his side - it was a dry strike so no venom.  However, we took him into Angel Camp, found something called a Medical center, not much more than a first aid station that deals with minor stuff such as colds and tummy aches. Watching the nurse go deer in the headlights when told I had a kid that was snake bit was priceless, all she could say was, "we've got no protocols for snakebite!".   Assuring her it was a dry strike, and all that she had to deal was to clean the area,  pop him with a tetanus shot and hand him an Rx for a course of antibiotics and that he would be fine.   While that was happening, we got ahold of the mom back at base, an ER trauma nurse and told her of the event, after getting control of herself from a fit of roaring giggles, simply said to bring him back at the end of the week....

For a great story around the evening campfire, ask the lads which of them have ever kissed the dead lips of the young lassy known as the "L'Inconnue de la Seine"?

Google is your friend.....

11 hours ago, Onslow said:

I would like to hear from those who have first hand experience running units in poor rural areas where ignorance is a badge of honor,  families are mostly broken,  most adults are drug users.  Oh, did I mention cliquish because everyone is related.

I'm trying to understand how adult leaders are developed in blighted areas which obviously is a key requirement for administering a unit, particularly in the long term when leadership succession is a given.  I desperately need some tried and tested ideas that work.

Secondly, is trying to organize in such godforsaken places a fool's errand?

First, don't pigeon hole those of us that live in these areas. Those of us that are active in the program bring a lot of skill sets into Scouting not found in Urban America (I know teenagers who are better and safer with chain saws then Council Rangers). A number of my "bubba" friends have degrees from  Old Dominion, William and Mary, James Madison and Virginia Tech and yes, with outsiders we do play on their perceptions at times. My best advice is to just be flexable,  open and willing to be a part of this community.  The reality is, you will be frustrated, and you will have to deal with setbacks. But, that is part of the learning curve that will eventually make you more successful.

Collecting the morning dew off either the tarp, or tent with a small towel/bandanna works too.....

On a Rim to Rim trek and preparing for the hard slog up to the South Rim, one of our scouts asked..."if I get snakebit will I get a ride up?".  The SM replied, "Yep".

At which time  said Scout stepped off trail and into the brush shouting "Here snake, snake, snake..."