le Voyageur

It is ironic so many council are finding the need to shut down camps due to financial reasons when the most expensive part of a camp is the infrastructure. eliminate the dining hall and the extra resort style accomodations and activity areas and make the camp a "high adventure" wilderness type area.

 

I wonder if there is any council in the US which operates a camp as a "wilderness area" with designated campsites only accessible by foot and/or canoe. Zero amenities except a fire ring and a thunderbox at the well dispersed campsites. The only expensive infrastructure would be a "ranger cabin" at the parking area for check-in, etc...A camp like this would encourage the patrol method as the campsites would be small and unable to accommodate in excess of 10 people. I know some camps in NY use portions of their property for this type of activity, but they seem to be used less and less as the adults do not want to venture too far away from the mess hall and their evening cracker barrels with other adults. Just thinking out loud here.

Maine High Adventure Base

Just completed the BSA Health Form, DoT Medical Card, and YPT. The problem with the YPT was, is that our library limits internet time to 15 minutes. Was able to get it done in under 8...thus, do understand the frustration ... and the cost in time, money and those unforseen road blocks. Hang in there, and keep their feet to the fire....

Suggest the bride and groom tie the knot six feet off the deck on a rock face with each belaying the other with a top rope belay ....

AS a Shooting Sports Trainer' date=' I would be good with everything except the animal targets... but even then I would probably not make a big deal of it. Your range will have to get approved by your shooting sports staff anyway if it's a Scout-used range. I would try to add some moving targets (on a rope or a spring).[/quote']

 

In answer to your concerns, we've been using those types of targets on our Reservation's black powder ranges for over a decade or more with no objections being raised by any NCS Shooting Sports Inspector. Hopefully, those types of targets should continue as not a problem. However, if a NCS SSI has new and current marching orders from National we'll adjust to meet those standards as the safety of our Scouts is always on the front burner. Additionally, this is an out post activity of a physically demanding High Adventure program with specific age limits for participation.

 

I've a collection of hardback Merit Badge booklets from the 1950's liberally stamped on the insides with "**** County Negro Library". They serve for me as a reminder of how far we've come, but still how far we've yet to go to be more open and inclusive ....so no,as I've been with the program starting as a Bobcat in 57, and plan to stay the course as a provocateur, and burr under BSA's saddle to drag them out of the 19th century.

For the past few weeks been working on infusing more dynamics into our Camp's paint ball program... per BSA rules

"Pointing any type of firearm or simulated firearm at any individual is unauthorized. Scout units may plan or participate in paintball, laser tag or similar events where participants shoot at targets that are neither living nor human representations...."

Therefore, following these rules, I'm considering three ranges to cycle participants through. Here's where I'm at...

Range 1 will be a static range. Will be used to cover the fundamentals along with some basic firing practice.

Range 2 will be based on an 18th century long hunt. An inverted U course with each leg being around 500 to 800 meters long. Targets will be a mix of steel plate animal silhouettes, and plastic round target. Will require scouts to use trail signs, and basic stalking techniques to move from target to target.

Range 3 will be a tactical range teaching mid 18th century forest warfare. Scouts will function as a militia unit on the frontier, and be presented with a problem that they'll have to solve and execute as a team.

Thoughts and suggestions will be welcomed

Well Pack.... I gotta bail out from this thread. It's allowed me to to ponder one of the Council's summer camp programs that needed an infusion of new thought in my own obtuse way, and now I've got to get it on paper... more then likely it'll be another program that National will "steal". Well, keep the kiddies in line, and en roulant

No, it's not unique. Scientologists also describe themselves as a religion but do not believe in God. Laveyan Satanists would describe themselves the same way. - AZMike

Mike, if I may - I'll have to disagree as you're comparing an established religion with over 350 million followers, one that is older then Christianity with a UFO cult that has a membership of less then 60 000!

Other then Tom Cruise, can you cite anything of merit that Scientology has contributed on the world state?

Pack - sorry, I've always been a rule breaker. Maybe I should report to the Hokey Pokey Center and turn myself around, hey....

Theological and historical nonsense ??? Well, the clues are in plain sight.....some being more obvious then other...

 

 

 

I cannot pray to Allah. I cannot participate in worship ceremonies of other faiths (Hindu, Buddist, etc) because in my faith, they are praying to false gods, and that is against the Commandments of my God. Yes, Rick, in my church participating in interfaith services would be blasphemy.

As Buddhists we don't pray to any god or gods. Buddhism is unique amongst the religions of the world because it does not have any place for God in its soteriology. Indeed most Asian religions (with the possible exception of some extremely devotional forms of Hinduism) are essentially non-theistic, in that God does not occupy the central place that is accorded to him in monotheistic religious traditions. But Buddhism goes beyond most of these other religions in that it is positively anti-theistic because the very notion of God conflicts with some principles which are fundamental to the Buddhist view of the world and the role of humans in it.

However Buddhism is not atheistic in the sense that modern secularism, rationalism, humanism, etc. could be regarded to be atheistic (although it has much in common with them). Buddhism is not concerned primarily with refuting the notion of God. It is principally concerned with developing a method of transcending from the worldly ills. This involves undertaking a method of mental discipline and a code of conduct which is sufficient to satisfy the most demanding of spiritual requirements. Indeed only very little of the Buddha's voluminous discourses deal directly with the question of God. He was more interested in expounding a way to personal salvation, and to improve the weal of mankind both in this world and in the worlds to come.

Consider also that Jesus was teaching a variation of Buddhism, not Judaism. As such, Buddhism dovetails very well with pre Pauline Christianity.

I think faith is so personal that BSA should not go down this road at all. I think they should stick to camping, etc., and leave faith and worship to each child's own family to participate (or not) according to their own conscience.

 

Ga Mom

 

Agree - however, it seems BSA is intent on taking the program down this rabbit hole.

 

Impatient, much?

No, sadly it's reality ... BSA has played the game of religious openness very well, and it's unofficial religion has always been and will always remain conservative christianity. Those of us who are outside of this box are forced to breathe this second hand smoke of religious indifference at nearly every BSA function we attend... Round Tables, District Committee meetings, Summer Camps, NCS, Council Dinners...in short, we get no choice. It's forced on us.....

So far .... I'll have to say your "experiment" has failed. I've yet to see atheists posting (could it be that they're shut out of the program) to explain their positions. Same goes for the Agnostic, Jews and the Buddhists. All I seen here is how Christians have figured out a way to massage their religion into faux religious programs to prove that they are open minded, and accepting of others beliefs. It's a pointless thread ......

Agree .... let the girls in. On a number of camp staffs, I've seen them run COPE and Climbing Courses as well as swiftwater. They have served as Camp Directors as well as Program Directors. They've also served as back country guides in Maine's North woods having skill sets that would put an Eagle Scout as well as a number of adult leaders to shame ....yet, they are shut out of the advancement side of the program....

You claim to have a far richer "environment of thought" yet are very close minded about the beliefs of others. This is what we don't want in our new thread. I want us to get beyond the stereotypes that Atheists are all rebellious and angry and selfish' date=' and that religious people are childish and unintelligent. Those stereotypes are not true, and I'm tired of seeing them. Especially in the same post where the poster claims to be enlightened.[/quote']

 

First, I've made no such claim.... and you need to sit around a few campfires and chew the fat with me before passing judgement on how "close minded" I am . You just might discover who that really is. None the less, I suggest you spend a bit more time reflecting on my post, and dig a bit deeper into it's philosophical depths before letting your horse out of the barn, as you're lumping atheists as one trick ponies. They tend to be more complex in critical thinking then the religious....

As I see it, we are all born into the world as atheists where the functions of parents and culture is to derail us from rational thinking into the absurdities of magical thinking and sky daddies. My own observations suggest that the religious find the atheist/agnostic a threat to this programming, the wolves that circle their status quo heard, that at the primal level is the fear they've been hoodwinked.

So, why not allow the atheist into the ranks exposing Scouts to a far richer environment of thought?... Eventually Scouts do grow up and exit out of the program and into the real world.

Suggest you keep shopping for another Unit. If possible, one that isn't LDS. However, since you are running an LDS Webelos pack you may be well stuck with what their Bishop orders as to what Troop they can attend. Sucks, but that's the way it is with the LDS.....

Got my beads back in the early 70's. Back in those days it was old school, and a week long course. Not busted up over several weekends. As I see it, today's Wood Badge has abandoned the outdoors as the classroom of Scouting. It's an okay course for new leaders, or paper pushers. But, for those wanting to run their Unit per BP's vision, Wood Badge isn't it...

If you have a good job that you are happy doing and it provides the standard of living that you are looking for, I would urge you look deeply and think seriously before leaving it to be a DE. It is a very difficult job that, IMO, is going to get even more difficult....even impossible. Schools are cutting the scouts out from doing Cub Scout recruiting and United Ways are cutting the scouts out from their allocations. Bad press is hurting the scouts ability to get an audience with new potential givers. In short, the job is not one that most sane people would want.

Well Philmont is suppose to Maintain the Working Ranch..and It is a Lease agreement so Not really sure what It equates to in the Way of Programs..and additional trails

11 000 acres = about 50 extra miles of backpacking trails, plus supporting outpost programs ...

"...Someone mentioned the merit badges don't prove a thing that they're just checkmarks on a list... they do actually... commitment, and mommy and daddy cannot buy them a badge, they have to be earned... I'm thinking that perhaps just Orienteering and First Aid though.... This is not too much to ask of my current scouts to complete in 1.5 years... I dont' care if it's at camp this year or merit badge colleges, or on their own that they earn the badges... I want them to be committed to the trek with something other than having the money to attend... that's also why I want to make the training treks mandatory for both scouts and adults attending... can't make the training treks because you don't feel like it? can't go to yellowstone, sorry :-("

 

If you plan on requiring specific merit badges, then incorporate requirements during your training treks. Obviously Backpacking merit badge would be a goal to accomplish during the entire process of training and final trek. Orienteering requires running laid out courses. Split the group into sub-groups. Each sub group sets up a course for the other groups to run. Arrange a First Aid mb class. 2hr sessions once a week on a different night from Troop meeting vs. couple of Saturdays. You are planning 1.5 years out. Recommend reminding the scouts that if they miss troop planned opportunites, they can still earn the MBs at summer camp, MB clinics, or earn on their own. Both of these opportunities could/should be open to the entire troop. Start building the skills of the entire troop so next time will be easier.

 

You probably should consider requiring at least two or more participants complete Wilderness First Aid. National BSA High Adventure Bases require minimum 2 current certifications for crews participating. Typical class costs $175-$250 per person. Cost of class for 2 participants is folded into total cost of trip. WFA helps you understand that no help is coming and you gotta do things you are told not to do in urban/surburban settings. Standard first aid assumes professional help, transportation, and advanced care will be available in 1 hr or less. Backwoods first aid situations presume a minimun of a day before help arrives and multiple days to advanced care facility. Fall off your bike in town, call 911, ride ambulance to hospital, get bones set and cast applied. Break a bone in the outback, you will have to stablize and potentially carry the victim for days. What would be a normal 2 hour hike can turn into a 8+ hour carry out. Now you need have extra food and water for the trip extension. You potentially have to sacrafice gear to lighten load or build stretchers. Party may have to split up to send runners ahead to request assistance while others stay behind to treat and transport. How do you best divide the group based on experience, training, leadership, maturity, etc. "Planetary Stablization" instead of a backboard. The typical BSA first aid kit that fits in your back pocket does not have the necessary equipment to treat backwoods injuries. The crew will need supplemental first aid supplies. One giant kit or mulitple sub-kits to distribute weight across all crew members?

 

How about PLB? Personal Locator Beacon. They can be rented. Might be a useful safety feature to have one for the crew to signal if the poop hits the fan. Satelitte Phone? Again rent for the trip? Depends on the experience level of the crew. Some parents might feel it is worth an extra $10-$50? per scout knowing the crew can call for help. Just be sure not to give out the phone number to parents. Crew calls once a day to designated person and gives thumbs up, nothing more. GPS? That way when you call on the Satelitte phone, you can give specific coordinates to the SAR team. Maybe earning the SAR MB would be useful. Knowing how SAR teams search and what clues they look for helps one to get found quicker. Hint: Lost people always got to water. Even it is just a mud puddle. There is only one lost person but they leave lots of clues. SAR looks for clues, not people. If you wanna get found, leave lots of easy to find clues. Visit Equipped to Survive website. http://www.equipped.org Great resource for SAR and wilderness survival.

 

Backpacking stoves. Do you want all to use the same fuel so it is interchangable or would it be better to have at least one different kind of stove/fuel. Propane does not work well when cold but butane does better. Liquid fuels can spill. Cannisters can loose pressure or explode. One pot meals that are basically boiling water or more elaborate cooking? Most stoves flaunt their speed at boiling water. Most are poor at cooking in a skillet due to concentrated hot spot in center of pan. Will you have food drops or will you carry all food the entire way?

 

How about water? What kind of purification process are you going to use? Tablets, filters, straws, etc. How far apart are your water sources? Will you need to adjust your route to go to a water source? Will you have dry camps and have to carry extra water? If so, then you will need collapsable water containers or additional water containers. Will you cook your main meal requireing water at noon because that is where the water is and have a dry evening meal due to dry camp? Is water seasonal so eliminating certain routes? Planning your route will force you to change gear and food decisions.

 

There are plenty of decisions for the scouts to be invovled in. Get a crew leader ASAP. Start getting scout volunteers to research and present information to rest of the crew so decisions can be made, gear tested and final decisions made before leaving for the big trek. Many outdoor stores will rent gear for the weekend. Field testing often shows flaws not so obvious in the store.

 

Go to Roundtable and ask if any past Philmonters are willing to hold a Q&A for your scouts about backpacking for extended days. Philmont solves a lot of problems that you have to solve yourself when planning your own trip. Philmont has a food drop every 3 days. Crews check in with a staff member in the field every evening. Trails are very worn so difficult to get lost. Trained medical personnel oncall with knowledge of specific area, etc. Philmont is realtively tame. There is a lot going on behind the scenes that participants dont't see. You probably don't know what you don't know. Asking questions will force you to ask more questions.

Don't put the cart before the horse. Do your homework first to see just what are the group size limits for the area you're interested in visiting. Then develop a plan that meet those limits....from experience, large groups don't work well in the back country. Logistics, added risk, a wide range of physical abilities, egos and group dynamics (clicks) will negatively impact the adventure

I've two....my Nashwaak otter tail canoe paddle (one piece cherry), and the Garman Dakota 20 GPS......

It doesn't appear as though National Camp School teaches the outdoors skills that leaders need. Maybe the old Woodbadge did but of course that's not an option. So apparently there is no other course that teaches these skills currently offered.

 

The reason might be that there is generally among the adults no interest in learning these skills. Or maybe they already know everything they think they need to know. After all how much do you need to know to take a bunch of kids out to a campground for the weekend?

 

Some of the subjects I'd like to see taught:

Advanced backpacking skills including lightweight methods.

Orienteering and advanced map and compass use.

Campfire cooking, utensiless cooking.

Make your own gear (remember the old Boys Life articles on making your own gear like backpacks?)

Canoeing (I'll bet there's a lot of leaders who don't know to do a J stroke).

 

Any other ideas?

 

 

Don't drink the water...I am sure someone will come up with a Filter soon