Kudu

ajmako writes: "We who operate exclusively within the BSA cannot remove the rank requirement, and we cannot eliminate Scoutmaster Conferences or Boards of Review. We can use these things to our advantage, and I think that would be a far more constructive discussion...By that I mean, of course, ways in which we can achieve the aims of Scouting the way B-P intended within the system established by the BSA." How do you "measure" Spirit in a Scout's everyday life? True Spirit is not like a square knot, which can be "demonstrated" at will. Some Troops ask for a note from a Scout's parents or religious leaders. Other Troops count attendance, correct uniforms, and use this requirement to block Advancement to "trouble-makers." No method in which an adult evaluates a Scout is as efficient a learning experience as making a game out of a Scout's reflection on his own behavior. Those who prefer Baden-Powell's divine spark approach to Scouting can use my "Scout Spirit Scavenger Hunt" to help their Scouts focus on how their own behavior is already an example of Scout Law. This is what B-P called "education:" learning by drawing from Scout's own experences (B-P defined this as the opposite of "instruction"). See the US Scouting Service Project: http://usscouts.org/advance/docs/spirit.html The Scout Spirit Scavenger Hunt can convert a Scoutmaster Conference into a Baden-Powell encounter in which the Scoutmaster does not judge the Scout's "Spirit" as a condition for advancement, but expands the Scout's understanding of the words of Scout Law. When a Scout sits down to write, he is always surprised to find how many of his actions are already an example of Scout-like behavior. If you approach it in the spirit of a game, the Scout Spirit Scavenger Hunt can turn this Rank Requirement into a source of joy, pride, and growth. ajmako writes: "giving long sermons about how different BSA was from B-P ninety-some years ago" The ridicule of the discussion of history is an appeal to ignorance. Human nature is exactly the same as it was "ninety-some years ago." B-P invented Scouting as an alternative to the same social forces that now insist on turning the Ideals of Scouting into adult-enforced "obligations." To understand the history of the Court of Honor is to understand OldGreyEagle's disconnect between the pretty words about Scout Spirit that he finds in the BSA Handbook and the way that religious conservatives turn these Ideals into obligations. Kudu

A candlelight Scout Law ceremony based on the Scout Spirit Scavenger Hunt. It works really well because the Scouts don't read from a sheet of paper, but say meaningful things in their own words: http://inquiry.net/advancement/ceremonies/candlelight.htm See also: http://inquiry.net/advancement/ceremonies/index.htm Kudu

Beavah writes: "Kudu talks about not havin' a "Scout Spirit" requirement in a BP system, but in a lot of ways it sounds like there's an adult-determined "Scout Spirit" requirement before being appointed to PL or another POR. So it's still there, it's just been moved from the tail end to the front end. Not "evaluation" as much - more like "setup." " Yes, but remember that PORs are not required for advancement in B-P's system. The Troop's "Honor" is guarded by the Court of Honor (the Patrol Leaders in Council). The equivalent to a "Blue Card" is the Court of Honor's permission for a Scout to meet with an examiner to have his self-taught skills tested to earn a Proficiency Badge. If a Scout does not help the whole Troop "move along," the Court of Honor can block his advancement beyond First Class. Prior to First Class, the Court of Honor also examines each Tenderfoot Scout before being awarded Second Class "to ensure you are a satisfactory member of your Patrol and the Troop." So what we call "Scout Spirit requirements for advancement" are vested with the Patrol Leaders. Although the Scoutmaster has the final say in who he appoints as Patrol Leader, he is expected to follow the recommendation of the Court of Honor. The Court and the Scoutmaster are pledged to absolute secrecy in all of their deliberations, including appointments. The Scoutmaster must be convinced of the "three musts." A Patrol Leader MUST be "kind, straight, and keen" (straight = loyalty as the ability to speak truth to power). With "good manners and qualities of leadership" as nice qualities that "can largely be taught and acquired" :-) Kudu

OGE writes: "You have the appointed Troop Guide, the experienced scout whom is the role model for the patrol, so whether you call him an appointed patrol leader or appointed troop guide I don't see a difference." Well, an appointed older Scout Patrol Leader is a real Patrol Leader, and a Troop Guide is somebody that props up a ten or eleven-year-old pretend Patrol Leader while trying to teach him Scoutcraft. "The New Scout Patrol ASM lends support to the Patrol Guide when he needs it, it doesnt mean he runs the New Scout Patrol anymore than a Scoutmaster runs a troop." Yeah, if you chain him to a tree 300' from the Patrol then I guess it is OK. My experience is similar to AJ's, if you have an adult hovering around then the Scouts will defer to him. A good Patrol Leader is better than a good adult. "But I have always thought that giving the new scout a taste of what it it like to be in charge is a very important lesson. Many times the scout will come to me and complain that no one in the patrol will listen to him, I offer sympathy and ask him if he paid much attention to the previous patrol leader or any boy leader for that matter, usually there is an "Aha" moment, where the boy realizes how he is perceived when he ignores direction from youth leaders...its tough to command respect as a leader, if you personally cant take direction" Both Baden-Powell's Patrol System and William Hillcourt's Patrol Method "does it better" than the 1972 "Leadership Development Method" with its artificial "very important lesson" stuff, however well-intentioned. A ten or eleven-year-old needs to learn Scoutcraft to be warm and dry and well-fed and confident in the wilderness. The leadership stuff is better learned by him observing the best older Scout in the Troop as his close-range Patrol Leader role model. Kudu

OGE writes: "They have a Troop Guide and an ASM assigned to them and they rotate the Patrol Leaders job on a monthly basis until all have been in the position at which time they elect a permanent PL and the Troop Guide bids them a fond adieu." The ASM raises a big red flag for me. I prefer mixed-age Patrols, but with New Scout Patrols (NSP) I find that Baden-Powell "does it better" by appointing an older Patrol Leader rather than teaching some kind of lesson about leadership by having 10 and 11 year-old Scouts rotate the Patrol Leaders job. Getting other kids to follow you really sucks at that age, and the actual "muscle" is the appointed ASM or, at best, the appointed Troop Guide. If you appoint a popular older Scout to be their Patrol Leader (ideally a good-natured ex-SPL), he becomes the young Patrol's role model of how a real Patrol Leader does his job. It is important to have the PL pick an age-peer to be associated with the Patrol as Troop Guide or the Patrol's own Troop Quartermaster so they don't mind camping away from the other older Scouts. The Patrol Leader can experiment with little Assistant Patrol Leaders, finally sticking with the best natural leader (who usually gets elected PL when the Patrol "comes of age"). I find that most of the appointed NSP Patrol Leaders discover that they enjoy the pure adoration of their charges. I treat them like an adult ASM and I run interference between them and the adult leaders when necessary. Kudu

I'm growing old and feeble, Beavah. I had already retired from the Scoutmaster business (while still staffing local Council advanced cold weather training [Okpik], and acting as course director of Introduction to Outdoor Leader Skills [iOLS]) when a few years ago the District Commissioner (DC) across town asked me if I would be willing to serve in one of the Troops in his district which was operating without a Scoutmaster. One of the dads was the acting Scoutmaster, and a few others were Assistant Scoutmasters but nobody wanted to step up. The Troop is located in a transitional neighborhood where the Chartering Organization's Cub Scout Pack was in its last year before finally folding. The Scouts were mostly older teenagers who were in their last year or two before aging out. One of the two Patrol Leaders didn't know the name of his Patrol, and neither of them knew exactly who was in which Patrol. The weekly program was mostly instant Merit Badges and basketball, but they did camp regularly. My mission for the DC was to steer the Troop back to the standard BSA program and then hand it off to a new Scoutmaster, most likely either one of the current Assistant Scoutmasters (an Eagle Scout from the Troop who was now in college); or the Cubmaster of the CO's floundering Cub Scout Pack (an Eagle Scout who would soon be crossing over with his son). The Eagle Scout in college got married and is now delaying Scoutmastership until he and his newborn son go through the Cub program. The ex-Cubmaster (the dad mentioned in the post that Brent-Allen quotes with glee) emerged after Scouter training as an outspoken critic of not only high adventure but the Patrol Method itself. He appears to be less than the perfect candidate to replace me :-/ So I don't have much to report in the way of really radical departures from the BSA program in the Troop that I currently serve. For instance some of you are aware that I am very critical of what I call "Resume Scouting" (summer camps geared toward advancement rather than the Patrol camping, and youth leadership training based on corporate management rather than practical specific Patrol Leader skills). Well, a couple of weeks ago the "Frontiersmen" Patrol Leader (FPL) saw a flyer for this year's National Youth Leadership Training (NYLT) and told the SPL he was going bump the evening's planned activity for the older Scouts so that he could talk to them about his own experience in the course. The older Scouts circled their chairs and what was the first thing out of his mouth? "This course rocks! It is even better than Eagle on your resume! I listed it on an application and I got hired right away to lay fiber-optic cable out west this summer!" "Da stuff that's most different from an average modern BSA troop": 1. Patrol Leaders' Council (PLC): The FPL (likely our next SPL) is the ringleader of a movement to sneak PLC meetings into weekly meetings when the adults aren't looking. He points to the diagram of the PLC on page 37 of the Patrol Leader Handbook and says "Do you see 'Scoutmaster' in the blue area? No!" This seems to have greatly energized the Junior Leaders as a group so I sometimes let them slink off to plan things on their own, although I do maintain veto privileges. 2. Troop Elections? We don't have them: a) The older Scouts have secret Patrol elections for reasons of their own. I usually find out about them after the fact when someone asks me for a Patrol Leader's patch. I only require that Patrol Leaders camp regularly. b) When we have a Patrol of very young Scouts, I try to appoint the most popular ex-SPL as their Patrol Leader at least for the first year. I also appoint the Troop Guide (TG) (as was recommended in the last Scoutmaster Handbook). The ideal combination is when the PL and TG are good friends so they don't mind camping together with the young Patrol away from their age-peers. The Patrol comes "of age" when they figure out that they can hold their own elections without anyone's permission. c) SPL has only one vote in the PLC and is therefore not the Patrol Leaders' boss. He is usually selected by the consensus of the Junior Leaders with as little input from me as possible, as in both Hillcourt's BSA Baden-Powell's programs. The FPL is already running the PLC and many of the activities, but if our very competitive Troop Guide won't sign off on the FPL being SPL, then the PLC will hold an election of some sort. 3. ASPL: In a small Troop an Assistant SPL is a complete waste of talent. B-P did not use them (and even SPLs were merely optional) and Hillcourt did not use them except in very large Troops. The Troop Guide should be the most talented non-PL in the Troop so he certainly does not need a less talented Scout as his supervisor, and what Patrol Leader needs an SPL-appointed ASPL acting as SPL in his absence? So one of our Patrol Leaders acts as SPL when the SPL is not around. 4. Blue Cards: I only sign Cooking Merit Badge blue cards with me as the Counselor, and I would only sign a blue card for Camping Merit Badge if the Scout had already been on a four mile backpacking trip with me (so far I haven't had to refuse anyone). The FPL wants to camp in the Allegheny National Forest and he is a natural Troop leader with a lot of charisma, so it appears that we will be a backpacking Troop again this year! A Scout who can't cook and who has never walked into the woods with a pack on his back is just a paper Eagle. I agree with Beavah that what most people want to hear about is personal experience. To go one step further, I find that I receive the most grateful "off-list" Email when I write about all the "warts" of my Troop's shortcomings: candid accounts of where our program falls far short of the ideal. A number of Scouters seem to be inspired more by these frank posts than by glowing accounts of what goes right, or by what Beavah dismisses as "mere theory." But with apologies to Beavah and his flat-tailed fellow-travelers, "mere historical theory" is the one unique thing that I do have to contribute :-) As for radical departures from the "modern" BSA program, in my prime I contributed to the Troop I served mostly along the lines of the BSA program by William Hillcourt in his pre-1970s handbooks for Scoutmasters. I especially like Hillcourt's "Intensive Patrol Leader Training in the Green Bar Patrol" (PLT) course. The whole point of PLT is to get the Patrols hiking and camping on their own, but I admit I only allowed the most gifted Patrol Leaders to take their Patrols camping without adult supervision. Terry Howerton and his staff interviewed one of them about ten years ago: a twelve-year-old Patrol Leader who had been a member of the Young Pioneers in Lithuania before he joined our Troop. Those of you who support Scouter.Com and have the back issues of Scouter Magazine will find a detailed account of what I consider to be a good Traditional Patrol Leader on page 12 of issue #5 (Winter 1997/1998). Kudu

BrentAllen writes: Sorry, but Scouting is not just a game. Baseball is a game. No, as soon as you allow this adult purpose thing to justify substituting adults for Patrol Leaders, you are no longer playing the game of Scouting as Baden-Powell describes boy-run, so his quotes no longer apply to your adult-run pastime. You could ruin baseball in a similar way if you required all players who cross home plate to have their "School Spirit" tested, undergo an interview with the coach of the other team to examine your "Team Spirit", and a board of review by members of the community (to determine if you represent the "ideals" of baseball) all before the "requirements" of crossing home plate are counted as a "score". Kudu

BrentAllen writes: Kudu writes: "I agree that human nature is the same, but what aspects of adult behavior are encouraged depend on how the program is structured: the BSA has the adult-led method called "Adult Association" which is a collection of powers taken away from the Patrol Leaders and given to the adults by the adults." Yes, the BSA was founded on a profound ignorance (or rejection) of Baden-Powell's boy-led Patrol System. This tradition started back when the BSA instructed "Scout Masters" to divide up the troop by the Scouts' body weight and height, and to keep the Patrol Leaders powerless: The Patrol Leader and the Scout Master Care should be taken by the Scout Master that the patrol leaders do not have too great authority in the supervision of their patrols. The success of the troop affairs and supervision of patrol progress is, in the last analysis, the responsibility of the Scout Master and not that of the patrol leader. There is also a danger, in magnifying the patrol leader in this way, of inordinately swelling the ordinary boy's head. The activities of the patrol should not be left to the judgment of any patrol leader, and if the Scout Master wants to delegate the work of the patrol and troop, the whole group should reach a decision in regard to the plan (Handbook for Scout Masters, 1st Ed., p. 85,). See: http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/1st/index.htm This is the exact opposite of real Scouting which uses the Patrol System. The heart of the Patrol System is the "Court of Honor" which runs the Troop, including Advancement. Americans might wonder why the term "Court of Honor" in the United States refers to an award ceremony rather than to the governing body of Patrol Leaders. In the early BSA, testing was not done by the Patrol Leaders, or the Scout Master, or even the Troop Committee. A Scout's Scout Master could not be trusted to administer these written examinations impartially! Testing was done by a committee of adults at the local BSA Council. This committee was called (you guessed it) the "Court of Honor"! "All examinations wherever there is a local council should be conducted by the Court of Honor and not by the Scout Master in charge of the troop. Where there is no Court of Honor, it is best to obtain the aid of another Scout Master or some other known man of the community to serve as such a court. Where the local Scout Master gives examinations to his own Scouts there will always be charges of favoritism, and a general feeling of discontent will be engendered before very long under such conditions (Handbook for Scout Masters, 1st ed., page 127). Scout Masters were instructed to impress their Scouts with the awesome importance of these adults to whom the BSA had given the Patrol Leaders' powers: "It should also be the general rule that the Scout should make formal application for an examination. This besides impressing the Scout that the examination is a matter of consequence, will furnish a valuable record of the work accomplished by the various Scouts (Handbook for Scout Masters, 1st ed., page 127). Unlike Baden-Powell's model which made a distinction between "education" (self-directed learning) and "instruction" (the school lecture model), the BSA Court of Honor included a comprehensive battery of written examinations for each "rank" plus additional oral and/or practical examinations. See: http://inquiry.net/adult/methods/1st/064-Scout_Exams.htm An additional perversion of the Patrol System under the new Scouting monopoly included "Inter-Patrol Contests!" This might conjure up visions of Patrols in campaign hats cheering in the open air as they compete with each other to claim mastery of outdoor skills. You would be mistaken. "Inter-Patrol Contests" were the ranking by adults of all the Patrols in a Council by calculating the written test examination scores of the members of every Patrol! Patrols were even penalized when one of their members received a low exam score: "Any Scout failing to receive a percentage of at least 50 will be marked "FF" and his patrol will have to forfeit 10 points. He will not be allowed to take the next examination, but may take anyone succeeding that (See reference, above). Eventually the powers stolen from the Patrol Leaders were were transferred to the adults in the Scout's own Troop. The Adult Association is described as follows, at least in my copy of the SM HB: "Boys learn a great deal by watching how adults conduct themselves. Scout leaders can be positive role models for the members of their troops. In many cases a Scoutmaster who is willing to listen to boys, encourage them, and take a sincere interest in them can make a profound difference in their lives." Why do BSA adults need the "muscle" of examining and judging a Scout in order to make this "profound difference" in his life? And don't give me the "BOR & SM Conference is taking power away from the PL's" argument. The SM conference, as described in the SM HB, is a conversation to see if the boy is ready to advance. Same thing with the BOR. In real Scouting the Troop is boy-led, not adult-led. When asked to submit to a formal adult-led examination of their Scoutcraft skills or "Scout Spirit" a Scout should politely reply, "Did you ask my Patrol Leader?" It is also a great time for the SM and Committee members to take a pulse on the troop - how are things going, what needs to be improved. They don't need to pretend to be Patrol Leaders to find out those things! Teaching boys how to interact with adults is a very important skill - more so than learning how to tie a square knot. No, Scouting is all about the square knot. Forget all this made-up "Purpose of Scouting" crap, Scouting is a Game. Period. Boys get tested by adults all the time at school, they don't need more schoolmarm interaction with adults at Scouts. If you need to take powers away from Patrol Leaders for your BSA Adult Association Method, then why not go all the way and make 18 or 21 the minimum age to be a Patrol Leader? It would certainly be an easy transition to make in Troops where every Patrol has an "adult mentor" hanging around the Patrol all the time. And Kudu, I'm still waiting to hear which B-P quotes are phony. Or do you wish to retract that statement. I'm still waiting to hear the sources of the quotes that I listed already. In the meantime you can add the all-time most famous phony BSA Baden-Powell quote: "Scouting is a Game with a Purpose" This phony profound "purpose" thing is usually used by adults who need an excuse to take powers away from the Patrol Leaders because they think that interaction with adults is more important than the Game of Scouting. Kudu

Eagle Dad writes: words are funny sometimes and actually yours sound angry I admit to contempt for the meanness of the religious right, and yes I do think bigots are funny! What you are doing is called "projection," Barry, or as kids say "It takes one to know one." NPR did an interesting piece in which they recorded short clips of conservative Republicans all using the same talking point of describing their enemies as "angry." Tune in Fox News and you will be surprised at how common your projection of anger technique is. People should be asking themselves "Why exactly is Eagledad so obsessed with Kudu?" and "Can we get back to the topic?" Kudu

Eagledad writes: I don't trust you Kudu Your continued personal attacks are especially inappropriate in a thread about Scout Spirit. Kudu

BrentAllen writes: The quotes I use from B-P are either from original source, or cited to original documents. Are you telling me "Footsteps of the Founder" is phony? I believe every single quote in there is cited. Please tell me which ones are phony. OK, in the "How do we compete against the allure of a Webelos III Troop?" thread you write: Keep these B-P quotes on an index card in your pocket...They are found in the Scoutmaster Handbook, on page 20 & 70. When the parents ask those questions, pull out the card and show it to them. Tell them you agree with the founder of Scouting on how to run a troop. "The patrol method is not a way to operate a Boy Scout troop, it is the only way. Unless the patrol method is in operation, you don't really have a Boy Scout troop." William Hillcourt attributes something similar to this to Roland Phillips on page 161 or the 3rd Edition of Handbook for Scoutmasters. "The object of the patrol method is not so much saving the Scoutmaster trouble as to give responsibility to the boy." Baden-Powell did not use the term "patrol method." The BSA Patrol Method is the Patrol System "lite" because it does not give the boy leaders real free-handed responsibility and if you only give partial responsibility you will only get partial results :-) So Brent, if you really do agree with the founder of Scouting on how to run a troop, then save the Scoutmaster some trouble and get rid of adult-run Scoutmaster Conferences, Boards of Review, and Scout Spirit requirements! "Training boy leaders to run their troop is the Scoutmaster's most important job." "Train Scouts to do a job, then let them do it." "Never do anything a boy can do." Maybe you can help me out on these three quotes, I can't find a Baden-Powell source. Kudu

AJ! Welcome to the Scouter.Com Forum! Finally, someone who writes longer posts than me :-) Kudu

Beavah writes: Often better to appoint or at least screen PL's. That way the PL's are ones the adults can trust with independence, and therefore stay out of the way. I've seen it done both ways, though myself I always did the elected thing. These days, I lean toward appointed or screened, with youth input. Makes for more youth-run in all the other areas. Yes, and screening was sometimes used in B-P's Patrol System: the Scoutmaster and the Court of Honor would determine the most qualified potential Patrol Leaders, the Patrol members would vote for the approved candidate of their choice, and the Scoutmaster would then appoint the winner. Likewise William "Green Bar Bill" Hillcourt, the Danish "Father of the Patrol Method" in the BSA, had some hybrid strategies for heading off the worst disasters in Patrol elections. Note also his four to six week "period of probation" between the election and the formal appointment ceremony: "The Scoutmaster's Part "If a very definitely unfortunate selection seems imminent to the Scoutmaster, through his more mature knowledge of the Scout in question, he may decide to call the Patrol together and give it a talk on the necessary qualifications of a Patrol Leader. This talk may even be so designed as to narrow the choice to the boy the Scoutmaster would like to see chosen. Almost invariably the boys will follow suggestions thus diplomatically given-and will feel that they, after all, did the choosing. "A modified election scheme is the method by which two or three boys in each Patrol are nominated by the Scoutmaster or the Troop Leaders' Council and one is elected by a vote of the Patrol. "In some Patrols every boy writes out the names of the fellows he thinks are the three best leaders in his group. The results are not made known directly to the Scouts but practically every boy in the Patrol has some kind of rating placed upon him as a leader. At the Troop Leaders' Council meeting, with all the senior and junior leaders present, the ratings are gone over and it is decided just who will be the best leader for the group. In this way both Scouters and Scouts have a share in deciding who the Patrol Leaders shall be and the possibility of embarrassing situations is eliminated. "In all instances, the appointment of the Patrol Leader should not immediately follow his election or selection. It should be definitely understood that he has to prove his mettle before the appointment is forthcoming. For this reason it is advisable to institute what might be called a "period of probation" during which the Scout is given the chance to prove that he is worthy of the high office of Patrol Leader. This period may be of one month or six weeks' duration, and should seldom be longer (William Hillcourt, Handbook for Scoutmasters, 3rd Ed., Page 184). Kudu

FScouter writes: Which edition is the correct edition, and which ones are wrong?? As Stosh points out, it is not a matter of "right and wrong," the editions are a natural 30-year progression in which the Court of Honor proved to be capable of much more responsibility than B-P had originally anticipated. jblake47 writes: Have fun, but those questions really don't help the program much. Is it effective and is it efficient are two better systems of evaluation. Yes, I agree. I think the evaluation depends on your Troop's Outdoor program: if your Patrols are trained and expected to camp without adults, and your 2nd Class Scouts are trained and required to backpack 15 miles without adults, and your Life Scouts are off organizing their own 200 mile horseback Scout Journey for an Eagle Badge, then your criteria of what is effective or efficient are probably much different than if your Patrols always camp close together in the same campsite under adult supervision. BrentAllen writes: As to which program is "correct," I would argue that answer is self-evident, though Kudu isn't going to like it. If you are running a Troop under the BSA, then you follow the BSA program. If you alter the program, that is your Troop's decision. As you know, the "Patrol" answers for Questions 1 - 5 are still consistent with BSA rules, so the program is not limited to what you learn in Wood Badge. There have been lots of thoughts about boy-lead bandied about, with some tied to B-P, some to his writings and quotes, and some not cited. While there is much information on Kudu's page, much of it is not cited, so I can't tell what has basis from B-P and what is personal opinion. I do not mean that as a criticism of Kudu's page, just an observation from a reader. Which of the 2,280 pages are those, dear reader? :-) I guess that is the problem I have with those suggesting methods other than the BSA program, especially when they tell me the BSA program is wrong, not boy-led. Take the "right" and "wrong" thing up with FScouter. I can't tell what has a historical basis, and what is just personal opinion. It may not matter either way to some, but it does to me. If it matters so much to you, you could ask and then debate the specific issues, couldn't you? Why aren't you as skeptical about the phony Baden-Powell quotes that you recite from the BSA handbooks? Eagledad writes: OK, but do you really think that you couldn't do this in the BSA Troop or that the BP program would protect against a SM whose real desire is for an adult run program? Lets ignore the program differences for a moment, just how does youth imput guard against the self-serving adult? Why get so caught up in idiot-proofing Scouting? The problem with trying to make something idiot proof is that the idiots are so ingenious :-) These two programs have basically the mechanics... After readying many many of Kudu's post, I am very confident that my Troop when I was Scoutmaster was more boy run than any troop he will ever lead. That is more bragging then I like, but from what I read, Kudu doesn't understand heart of the program, only the written facts and details. This is the third time that you have insisted that the two programs "have basically the same mechanics," but you never respond to the "written facts and details," do you? Perhaps if you debated the details rather than bragging about your superior "understanding of the heart of the program," you would not have to fashion such purely personal attacks in your attempt to say something hurtful. Kudu

Brent, From which edition of Scouting for Boys are you quoting? The term patrol "corporal" suggests that it was early. In the later editions the Scoutmaster attends the Court of Honor but does not vote. In some editions the Court of Honor ensures that a Second Class candidate "is a satisfactory member of your Patrol and the Troop," and the Scoutmaster tests the Scout only on his understanding of the meaning of the Scout Law and Promise, but these were dropped in the final versions of his program. Kudu

DugNevius writes: If you are against the "troop method" because as you say Adults dictate too much, then how can you be behind a system where the adults dictate exactly who makes up the program. That would be direct control over the troop and the patrols. OK, the following 10 question survey should help everyone understand the differences between the BSA's Patrol Method, Baden-Powell's Patrol System, and the "Troop Method." Answer "Patrol" or "Troop" to the following questions: 1) Do your Patrol Leaders report to the PLC about regular weekly or biweekly Patrol Meetings of at least a 30 minute duration each in which they instruct Tenderfoot through First Class advancement skills and prepare for hikes and campouts, all without any adult supervision; or is such indoor instruction and planning usually undertaken in Troop Meetings? 2) Do your Patrol Leaders report to the PLC about regular Patrol Hikes undertaken without adult supervision on which they test (or continue to practice) Tenderfoot through First Class advancement skills; or are hikes usually undertaken as a Troop with adult supervision? 3) Do your Patrol Leaders report to the PLC about regular Patrol Campouts of at least 24 hours duration undertaken without adult supervision; or are all camping trips undertaken as a Troop with adult supervision? 4) When your Patrols camp as a group, do all of your Patrols camp at least 300 feet from each other and the nearest adult; or do the Patrols in the Troop that you serve camp within the eyesight and earshot of adult supervision? 5) Do your Patrol Leaders test and sign off all of the Tenderfoot through First Class advancement requirements; or are these advancement requirements signed off by a Troop Guide and/or authorized Troop Scouter? All of the above five practices are still allowed in the BSA, but they were the primary focus of BSA Patrol Leader Training from the late 1930s until 1972. For the details of how to conduct such competency-based Patrol Leader Training, see: http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm In 1972 the BSA introduced the new "Leadership Development" Method of Scouting, and Patrol Leader Training and Wood Badge were changed from teaching the mechanics and the experience of the Patrol Method to teaching abstract leadership skills. If you answered "Patrol" to questions 1-5, then by today's standards your Troop practices a very high level of the Patrol Method, and your experiences in achieving that with elected Patrol Leaders should be of interest to every reader! Now, answer "Patrol" or "Troop" to the following questions: 6) Are your Patrol Leaders in Council (with advice from the Scoutmaster) the final authority on the practice of Scout Law; or is the punishment for bad behavior (after the incident) in the hands of the adult Troop Scouters or adult Troop Committee? 7) Are your Patrol Leaders the final authority on the practice of Scout Law; or are their Scouts subjected to a "Scout Spirit" evaluation by an adult Troop Scouter? 8) Are your Patrol Leaders the final authority on Tenderfoot through First Class Advancement; or are their Scouts subjected to an adult Troop Scoutmaster Conference as a condition of Advancement? 9) Are your Patrol Leaders the final authority on Tenderfoot through First Class Advancement; or are their Scouts subjected to an adult Troop Committee Board of Review as a condition of Advancement? 10) Are your Patrol Leaders in Council the final authority on granting permission to a Scout to contact a Merit Badge Counselor; or are the "Blue Cards" of the Scouts in the Troop that you serve signed by an adult Troop Scouter? If you answered "Patrol" to questions 1 - 10, then you practice the Patrol System as it was designed by the inventor of Scouting, Robert Baden-Powell. For the details of this Patrol System and the ruling Court of Honor (PLC), see: http://inquiry.net/patrol/system/index.htm http://inquiry.net/patrol/court_honor/index.htm If practice the Patrol System on this high a level and find that elected Patrol Leaders are just as competent in handling these responsibilities as appointed Patrol Leaders then we all have a lot to learn from you! Kudu "To get first-class results from the Patrol System you have to give the leader a real free-handed responsibility. If you only give partial responsibility you will only get partial results (Robert Baden-Powell, Headquarters Gazette, May 1914).

OldGreyEagle writes: I agree the above skill is needed in adult life, however the three aims of scouting are Character Development, Personal Fitness and Citizenship. No, OGE, "Scouting" does not have three aims, only BSA Scouting has three aims. According to Baden-Powell Scouting has only one (1) Aim: Citizenship. Character development and fitness are means to the end: the one single Aim of Scouting, Citizenship. Pop Quiz: in which version of Scouting is Citizenship more important, in the BSA model where Citizenship is only one of three Aims, or in Baden-Powell's model where Citizenship is the only Aim of Scouting? The reason the youth of the troop elect their leadership is to learn lessons in democracy....It may take awhile and the youth may have to live with the consequences of a poor choice, but they are living out democracy. Suffering under the leadership of a bad Patrol Leader is not a "lesson in democracy," it is a lesson in bad democracy and bad Scouting. Good democracy in Scouting is: "Program Planning: As a result of a Patrol-in-Council, each Patrol Leader brings the ideas and wishes of his Patrol to the notice of the Court of Honor. These are discussed and those receiving majority votes are put forward as program material. In this way the type of Troop programs are built which the majority of boys want. This is real democracy. The Patrol Leader has to learn to represent his Patrol and to put their case forward even though he may not agree with it personally. He has to persuade his Patrol to back up loyally any decisions of the Court of Honor, even when they are contrary to their own wishes. He must learn to accept success or defeat with equanimity. " See: http://inquiry.net/patrol/system/6_court_of_honor.htm Citizenship is learned better in strong Patrols that meet, hike, and camp independently of adults or the Troop Method mini-adult called the SPL. Kudu

LongHaul writes: The wording changes for POR over the years make me wonder what the actual intent or desired goal of National has been. The desired goal has been Wood Badge in the 21st Century: the victory of business leadership skills over outdoor skills and the Patrol Method. At one time Wood Badge taught the Patrol Method by teaching participants outdoor skills in a Wood Badge Patrol. Previous to William Hillcourt's retirement there were no POR requirements and the 1960's wording was: Star: "be active in meetings, outdoor activities, and service projects of your unit and dependable in your unit obligations." Life: "Accept and carry out responsibilities in meetings, outdoor activities, and service projects of your unit." Eagle: "Work actively as a leader in meetings, outdoor activities, and service projects of your unit." Kudu

>>the BSA PARENT figure who judges the Scout's behavior by taking Advancement away from the Patrol Leaders and holding it hostage to his judgement.

Gonzo writes: I disagree that a boy can earn Eagle without going into the woods.... Any boy can earn Eagle without ever walking into the woods with a pack on his back. At one time the BSA did require a tiny three mile (that is 1.5 miles each way) backpacking trip for Camping Merit Badge but now even that is optional. Now to satisfy all his Eagle camping requirements, Tommy Tenderfoot can order an "Executive Rolling Suitcase" from his mommy's "Wood Badge Leadership Accessories Catalog" and simply wheel his slumber-party gear to his tent! So, what can Kudu and Gonzo do to improve the situation? How can we all make change happen? In the United States we believe in the corrective forces of a free market: if the government deregulates the Scouting industry and allows Americans to join traditional 1960's style Scouting associations, then market forces will pressure the BSA to re-evaluate its post 1972 Advancement rigor. I've read here that National reads these posts, is that true? Not as closely as they read the financial news :-) Kudu

BrentAllen writes: These are the areas where I see a program can be either adult-lead or boy-lead: 1. Planning the annual calendar 2. Planning troop meetings 3. Planning campouts 4. Training the boys in Scout skills (not talking about merit badges) 5. Training the boys in leadership (JLT) 6. Signing off on rank advancements 7. Choosing youth leaders The real differences I see are in who conducts the training and who signs off. Brent, 1) In Baden-Powell's Program the annual calendar is done by the Court of Honor (PLC) usually in July or August, and preferably at the Troop's summer long term camp with the plans announced to the Troop at the last campfire. 2 & 3) The planning of Troop meetings and Troop campouts is also done by the Court of Honor which can meet once or twice a month, or on a weekly basis after Troop meetings. An interesting difference between the two approaches to Scouting is that after the Court of Honor has decided on the theme and general outline, they can delegate the details of indoor weekly meetings to the Scouters who prepare the actual details for the Program Patrols or an ASM. A sample "transcript" of such a Court of Honor in session can be found at: http://inquiry.net/patrol/court_honor/coh_session.htm 4 & 6) Training of Tenderfoot through First Class Scoutcraft skills and signing off is the responsibility of the Patrol Leaders and is done primarily in weekly Patrol Meetings and weekend Patrol Hikes or Patrol campouts, but the Court of Honor can also plan weekly meetings around the Scoutcraft skills to be used for the next Troop campout, see: http://inquiry.net/patrol/system/5_advancement_training.htm After he becomes a First Class Scout, a Scout commonly must ask the Court of Honor for permission to be tested by an outside examiner for Proficiency Badges. 5) New Patrol Leaders learn a lot from the older Patrol Leaders in the Court of Honor meetings, and from the Scoutmaster in a Troop-level training course called "Golden Arrow;" there is also a district-level course called "Gilwell Patrol Leader Training," see: http://inquiry.net/patrol/gilwell/index.htm 7) Patrol Leaders are appointed by the Scoutmaster with the best candidates commonly discussed in the Court of Honor: the Scoutmaster can sanction candidates for Patrol elections (with the winner then appointed by the SM), but there is no electing obviously unqualified Scouts so that the Patrol can suffer under a bad Patrol Leader and learn some kind of lesson about popularity contests. A Scouter training explanation of the Court of Honor can be found at The Inquiry Net: http://inquiry.net/patrol/court_honor/index.htm A Patrol Leader training explanation of Baden-Powell's Patrol System can be found at: http://inquiry.net/patrol/system/index.htm Kudu

Yes, with a little wiggle-room for English Scouts in the words "man" and "should" :-) Despite all his contradictions it was always his mission to inspire boys to action, not to sanction them. "He never put us in a position where we felt awkward or silly." (Terry Bonfield -- one of the boys who accompanied Baden-Powell to Brownsea Island in August 1907)

Hunt writes: No, I'm sorry, the rhetorical device is your misstatement of the Welsh case. "BSA" did not tell him that anyone can join; a person did that, and that person was wrong. In fact, not everyone can join. While it is regrettable that a boy's feelings were hurt, I don't think a national organization should have to change its membership requirements just because one of its members mistated them. According to Mark's father, Elliott Welsh, the flyer was professionally designed in color with space to print or copy in a local time and place: the "any boy" portion was pre-printed. Unless you have evidence to the contrary, it is reasonable to assume that it was produced by BSA national for local councils to use for recruiting in schools and the like. This case is not really relevant to the argument about whether everyone should be allowed to join, We agree on that: I believe that the state should not establish a MONOPOLY for a private religious organization with a fundamentalist joining requirement: Americans should have the religious freedom to join the Scouting association of their choice. and it is your use of this single emotion-laden incident that diverts the discussion from the real issues. It is not a single emotion-laden incident, it is a precedent: whenever parents question whether the BSA has the right to exclude their son from Scouting, their lawyer will look up the relevant rulings and explain that if the BSA went to court to force volunteers to turn their backs on a boy as innocent as six-year-old Mark Welsh, then they certainly will use their unlimited resources as a state-sanctioned religious monopoly on Scouting to go to court to force local volunteers to turn their backs on their child as well. I mean, we could talk about whether BSA should admit girls without talking about poor little Susie whose heart was broken when her brother joined and she couldn't. Don't forget to belittle the feelings of the little homos: Limiting membership to only those whom affirm in writing that good citizenship is limited to people who recognize "God" as "the ruling and leading power in the universe," is how the BSA talks like a fundamentalist duck; and discriminating against Girls, Gays, and Godless six-year-olds is how the BSA walks like a fundamentalist duck. Indeed, your devotion to Baden-Powell's ideas is a much more obvious form of fundamentalism. That is a variation of the assertion that to prove religious tolerance, you must be tolerant of religious intolerance. I understand that you think a return to the basics of Baden-Powell's approach would result in the inculcation of "Practical Christianity" in scouts. Would you object to the use of the term "Practical Christianity" in BSA materials to describe the values of the organization? "Practical Christianity" is the term Baden-Powell uses to explain to Christians why people in cultures that do not believe in Christ or God can still be of good character through good works alone, as in the Final Judgement of Matthew (where, by the way, those who turn their backs on the weak are cast into eternal fire): as such Practical Christianity describes exactly the opposite values as those of the BSA, doesn't it? Kudu The Final Judgment 31 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me. 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you? 40 And the King will answer them, Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, [6] you did it to me. 41 Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me. 44 Then they also will answer, saying, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you? 45 Then he will answer them, saying, Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me. 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. http://www.gnpcb.org/esv/search/?q=Matthew+25

BrentAllen writes: Also, back to my other post - you stated the SM should chose the best candidate for leadership, instead of letting the boys elect their own. Baden-Powell recommended that, yes, but remember that boys in the British Empire wanted the real thing and Boy Scouting was inspired by Baden-Powell's unique form of military reconnaissance patrols in which the soldier most capable of heading a self-sufficient unit behind enemy lines was appointed leader of his patrol. So too Boy Scouts wanted to be a part of a Patrol that was truly boy-led, and boy-led by Baden-Powell's standards means that a Patrol Leader has the "pluck, self-reliance, and discretion" plus actual Scouting skills to lead his self-sufficient unit through a weekend (or a week) of adventure in which the nearest Patrol is camped at least 300 feet away. You argue this is just a popularity contest, but I would argue the SM appointing the PL takes "power" and boy-lead program out of Scouting. In Baden-Powell's Patrol System, the Scoutmaster delegates this "power" to the boy-leader most capable of leading a Patrol in the Scoutmaster's absence. Yes, a popularity contest typically elects the boy with the most charisma (which often is based on self-confidence: the root of pluck and self-reliance in B-P's theory of leadership) but discretion and actual Scouting skills are less likely to factor into a boy election than an adult appointment. I submit that the only real, objective criterion by which the relative advantages of Patrol elections vs. Scoutmaster appointment in the Patrol System can be judged is: which method is most likely to select a boy-leader with the "pluck, self-reliance, and discretion" plus actual Scouting skills to actually lead his Patrol while camped at least 300 feet away from the nearest Patrol? Perhaps after everything is said and done, it is this 300 foot mark that distinguishes the BSA "Patrol Method" from Baden-Powell's "Patrol System." Kudu "The main key to success in scouting is to have pluck and self-reliance. I will show you what these are, and how to get them. PLUCK. -- Many people will tell you that pluck is not a thing that can be taught a man; it is either born in him or he has not got it at all. But I think that, like many other things, it is almost always in a man, though, in some cases, it wants developing and bringing out. The pluck required of a scout is of a very high order. A man who takes part in a Balaclava Charge is talked of as a hero, but he goes in with his comrades all round him and officers directing; he cannot well turn back. How much higher, then, is the pluck of the single scout who goes on some risky enterprise alone, on his own account, taking his life in his hand, when it is quite possible for him to go back without anybody being the wiser; but he carries it out because he thinks the result to his side will be worth the risk he runs. Such pluck is very much the result of confidence in himself" (Robert Baden-Powell, the opening lines of Aids to Scouting, 1900)

BrentAllen writes: I think we need to define what exactly the "power" is you think the boys should have, but don't...Before answering, consider B-P's answer to the question about how many boys should make up a troop. "The numbers in a Troop should preferably not exceed thirty-two. I suggest this number because IN TRAINING BOYS MYSELF I have found that sixteen was about as many as I could deal with - in getting at and bringing out the individual character in each." Yes, Brent, "in getting at and bringing out the individual character in each," which OldGreyEagle might recognize from his research as what we call "Scout Spirit." Our "Advancement Method" is based loosely on Baden-Powell's "Progressive Training in Scoutcraft:" a series of outdoor skills any one of which could provide an opportunity for a sharp-eyed Scoutmaster to "educate" (to draw out from within) an individual Scout's character. There is only one point where this interaction between the Scoutmaster and Scout is formal: the "Re-Test of Scout Law and Promise," which is the last requirement for Second Class: Re-test Scout Law and Promise. (Before the Second Class Badge is Awarded, the Scoutmaster will ensure that you understand the Law and Promise in accordance with your age and development, and the Court of Honour will ensure you are a satisfactory member of your Patrol and the Troop). Note that the Scoutmaster ensures only that the Scout understands the meaning of the Law and Promise; the evaluation of a Scout's character (or "Scout Spirit") is never an advancement requirement in B-P's Progressive Training in Scoutcraft. BSA Scouters who wish to follow Baden-Powell's example and use the BSA Scout Spirit Advancement requirements as an opportunity to discuss with each Scout his developing understanding of Scout Law in action might find the "Scout Spirit Scavenger Hunt" useful: http://usscouts.org/advance/docs/spirit.html Looks to me like the SM is conducting the training, through Adult Association. Yes, but as you know "The Methods of Scouting" are a BSA invention and the main elements of the BSA's "Adult Association Method" are based on adults judging the Scouts (Scoutmaster Conferences, Boards of Review, and as OGE points out, usually Scout Spirit Requirements); perhaps Baden-Powell could have called his informal, individualized, and non-judgemental approach to Scout Spirit the "Elder Brother Association Method" :-) Kudu The object of a camp a (a) to meet the boy's desire for the open-air life of the Scout, and (b) to put him completely in the hands of this Scoutmaster for a definite period for individual training in character and initiative and in physical and moral development (Baden-Powell, Headquarters Gazette, October 1909).