ASM59

Good day and welcome, First, like FireKat says, we need more detail to comment on your problem. What exactly are they not supporting you with or arguing with you about? What "voice" do you need to have on the Committee. As SM you oversee the meetings and activities that the boys have organized. You offer guidance to the boys with regard to the way the program is run. The committee ultimately answers to the Charter Organization, not the SM. Having said this, the committee should do everything possible to help to support the program that the boys want, and the SM has approved. They do this in potentially many ways, but primarily by helping with any funds necessary to provide the program (purchase of equipment and so forth). Please provide more details and we may be able to comment further. ASM59

I think this will qualifies as "Southeast". I just got back from taking some of the youth from our Church youth group to Carter Caves State Park in KY. The boys had a lot of fun, as did the adults. There is a wide variety of Caving that you can take part in at this park. 1)-Along some of their hiking trails are two caves that you can go through yourself, unguided. There is no way to get lost in these caves. They are simple single path caves with only a few short dead-end side passages. They are great fun to go through as a group, but make sure to get your hiking permit from the office first. 2)-There are guided tours of X Cave and Cascade Cave and more. Each is lighted with finished walkways. 3)-There is a guided tour of Bat Cave as well. This cave has not been modified with walkways, hand rails or installed lighting. You go on the tour with a tour guide and your flashlights only. The standard tour is not too difficult. Its about two hours long with some passages that require squating or crawling as the ceiling gets pretty low. 4)-There is also a guided crawling tour of the Bat Cave and another cave in the park. I haven't been on these tours, but I've heard that they're great fun as well. I am familiar with the caves of this park and did not have any worries about the boys being able to get through any of the caves that we went through. The 2 caves we went through on our own are considered wild caves, but they are not difficult to get through at all. The Bat Cave is a wild cave as well, but it was a guided tour and the tour is not too extreme. On our trip, the youngest was a 6th grader (11 y.o.) and he did fine on all the cave tours that we did. Of course, always submit to the G2SS when you are going on an official Scout outing. http://parks.ky.gov/resortparks/cc/index.htm ASM59

Joe, You do not need SM permission to sign up to be a MB Counselor. Go to your local Council office or download MB Counselor application and an Adult application. Both must be filled out and turned back into your Council office. Typically your application will go before the Advancement Committee to be evaluated/approved. Once approved you can begin teaching the MB. Most Councils publish a list of MB Counselors that are available. Once you are approved as a MB Counselor your name can go on this list so boys interested in the MB(s) you Counsel can contact you. I personally have been careful not to teach too many MB's to my own son, but I have helped him to find MB Counselors for what he needed or wanted. ASM59

Hello, I posted a response to another thread regarding how Troops are paying for fuel costs for outings. In that response I mentioned that our Troop also pays for the adult leaders cost for each outing. In response, it has been asked if the Adults who have their way paid submit the outing costs on their taxes. Also the thriftiness of those leaders has been called into question for allowing the Troop to pay their way. I should add that the Troop pays the Adult leaders' outing fees from the Troop funds and we do not charge extra to the boys' fees to cover it. The Troop has always looked at it as part of the cost of running the Troop. I don't think there is anything wrong with this practice. I give more in time and dollars to Scouting than I'll ever eat up in outing costs; this practice makes sense to me. So, I'd like to know: How many other Troops pay for the Leaders' Summer Camp and other outing costs? If so how is that cost covered? added to the boys' fees? Troop funds? Thanks, ASM59

Hello RangerSteve, Most of our leaders do not expect to get reimbursed for gas when we go somewhere local (e.g.; our local Council camp is 15 miles away). Our next outing is the Illini Jamboree. That will take us about 90 miles from home in a couple of large vans that get about 14 mpg. The round-trip fuel cost will be nearly $40 per van. The troop expects to reimburse the drivers for this fuel. After all, without the generous use of the vehicle, there would be no outing. In the past, we did not charge extra to cover fuel, but we have begun to do so. In the case of the Illini Jamboree, fuel cost added $10 to the cost of the outing per Scout. Our Troop does not expect "necessary leadership" to pay for their outing cost, because again without their willingness to go, there would be no outing. In other words, the Troop will pick up the fee for the Leaders when we go to the Illini Jamboree. You are very generous to drive so far in your vehicle for the Scouts. The Troop should either work this into the budget or into the outing costs. They will not keep or attract many volunteers if the do not offset or totally cover the cost of their volunteers. ASM59

Your only about 4 hours away. If I only had the time it sounds like great fun. I only asked about what type of reenacting you will be doing because I know it can get expensive. My daughter's boy friend and his brother do Civil War reenacting. They are 18 and 20 years old, and have been doing this for the last 6 years. Their parents are not involved, but the two boys have really dedicated themselves to doing this. They use Christmas and Birthdays to get things that they need for reenacting; new hats, boots, clothing, blankets,... They have invested in or been given well in excess of $6,000.00 worth of equipment, clothing, guns, saddles in the past six years. That's just two boys doing only Civil War reenacting. Trust me many of the adults doing this spend a lot more... Have fun; I know you will! ASM59

EagleInKY, I totally agree with what you say. The only advancement requirements missing that either did not happen or I am not sure of are: - The missing SM conference - Req. 4; While a Star Scout, take part in service projects totaling at least 6 hours of work. I don't know if these would be considered tangible, but at this point, there's nothing that I can do; it's looking like I will not be around to see how this family handles the Eagle rank. ASM59

Welcome, What type of re-enactments will they be doing? Civil War? Medieval? Trappers' Rendezvous? just curious ASM59

The Camp Ranger actually instructed the Scouts to break the Scout Oath/Law when he told them to take property that was not theirs to take. Bad choice, man I wish we could take things like this back after we've had the chance to think about it. This year at summer camp we had a leader in our site that flew the "Jolly Roger" (skull & cross-bones). His tent was right off of one of the main trails, only about 12 feet of not very dense trees & under brush. You could clearly see this flag from the trail, and I thought for sure that he'd be told to take it down, but it was never brought up. ASM59

Vicki, I agree totally with you. I cannot answer your questions as I am equally perplexed. ASM59

My heart goes out to this wife if what she says is true. Now, I am trying to work through this in my mind and cannot make up my mind how I would want to see this handled. There was another post back in 2001 about a Scout that got his girl friend pregnant. http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=45651&p=1 Because he was engaged in premarital sex, most in this thread thought that there should be some type of caution with regard to his involvement in the Troop and others thought that he was such a poor role model that he should be removed from the Troop. This Leader is likewise a poor role model. He was not only engaged in extramarital sex (allegedly) but broke a commitment that he had made to stay true to his wife. Do we still honor someone in this situation? I don't know??? ASM59(This message has been edited by ASM59)

Great topic, I used to get upset when we (Scouts) would ask parents to help and they'd say, "I don't have the time to do ..." or "I'm already too busy". Sometimes I'd ask them how many TV shows to you regularly watch each week. Most of the time I'd get a list of 5-10 TV shows that they regularly watch. I would always come back with the fact that I only watched one TV show and that I had to tape it to watch when I could find time. It frustrated me that no one would reevaluate their priorities to see that helping an organization that benefits their son(s) is more important that having to give up 2 or 3 of those TV shows. I try not to let it bother me anymore. My wife and I are a great fit, because we both tend to think of others and how we can help before we think about self. She is always trying to do for me and vice-verse. When it comes to Church, Youth Group, Scouts, Food Pantry and more, we are always willing to help. Unfortunately, when you are like us you can over do it and get over burdened to the detriment of your own family life, so we try to help each other by never volunteering for something until we check with each other. Why are we like we are? Perhaps it was our upbringing or maybe it has been learned from other sources, maybe it's a gift that we have, but what ever it is it seems that most people just don't have it. Maybe they need that time in front of the TV more than I do, who am I to judge. All I know is that it is getting increasingly harder to get adult volunteers for things such as our Church youth group and Scouts. I really think that it is a societal problem, one that arises out of having been taught to look out for "number one". We have and continue to train people to be self-centered loners. Are they oblivious to all the work that the few do? Yes, I don't think they have a clue... ASM59

Wingnut, You said, "...my troop signs the kids in when they arrive. Food money is how we know who to buy for." So, does the Troop/Patrols do their shopping for the outing on the way to the outing? Or, do you collect the money in advance from the boys who plan to go? acco.., Nice, I like your approach - make it each Scout's responsibility. ASM59

Crew21 and John, Just to clear up a couple of points. I do find fault with the Scout. Consider how many times he has gone through this process to get to Star and how many times the SM and ASM's have stressed that they must have everything completed in the book before going into a BOR. He knows what is necessary for a BOR to take place. He did not approach a SM or ASM to let them know he was ready for a SM Conference, nor did he let a SM or ASM know that he intended to ask for a BOR. Does he deserve his Life rank? Ultimately he has met the requirements, and would still be Life rank even if this had been handled correctly. The BOR should have turned him away with instructions to make sure he is ready next time. He could have had another BOR the next week or even two weeks later and still had it in time for the COH. But did he deserve to walk away from that BOR with a completed Life rank that night? I think not. And yes, there is fault to be found on the side of the Committee. First, the CC was not even notified that a BOR was taking place that night. If she had been there, this would not have happened as she is very meticulous and would never have let this slide. Secondly, those who did show up for the BOR did not apparently know what they were doing; like I said, there is a lack of training/understanding. Now, regarding the Advancement Chair, she was one of the Committee Members present at the BOR. Sadly, she too is in need of training. She also really does not have access to advancement records. I know, this is not right, but we track advancements using Troopmaster software and the CC has ruled that only SM and ASM's should have access to this data. ASM59

Thanks for the info. FScouter, I guess that's something that I've overlooked and/or Troop tradition has blinded me to - Our Troop (from before I was involved) made it the boy's job to contact the CC or other CM's for the purpose of arranging a BOR. Of course this is supposed to be with the SM's approval and is normally discussed at the SM Conference. Venividi and evmori, Unfortunately, the Scout has already been awarded his Life rank at a COH. You are correct with your assumption that the SM is in the position without really wanting to be there, yet will not give it up. What happened here was due to a lack of training of the committee members present. All of the CM's have been spoken to and now understand that what happened was not correct, but too much time has passed and I don't know of a way to go back to correct this problem. Yes, we will most likely be looking for another Troop. I guess I'm trying to tie up all the loose ends that I am aware of with our current Troop before I totally step down from responsibilities. Thanks again for your input and understanding, ASM59

OK, I think I'm seeing that the level of involvement by CM's depends on the need in the Troop and possibly Troop tradition / philosophy. Please, keep the feedback coming. Thanks, ASM59

Thanks for the info. Is it really true that Committee Members are allowed to sign of on advancements? I thought I was told in SM specific training that they were not allowed to, but perhaps that is just an old rule that our Troop had in place. Thanks also for the vote of confidence, this whole thing is sooooo difficult. ASM59

What about e-mail notifications? I no longer receive them when I check the box to get notified of a reply on the thread... ASM59

I just found out about an incident that took place a several weeks ago. Let me explain: One of our Scouts, Scout1, was ready for his Life BOR and called some of our Committee Members to see if they'd be able to meet him at a Troop meeting for a BOR. They agreed and he had his BOR. One of these Committee Members let her son (Scout2) know that there were going to be Committee Members present and told him to be ready for his Life BOR as well. Here is my first problem: Scout2 made no contacts to assure that he could have a BOR and the Committee Members present for Scout1's BOR stayed to give this other BOR. Now for the really big problem: Scout2 sat down with the Committee Members for his BOR and presented his book to them. None of the Life requirements were checked off, initialed or signed. The Committee (probably due to lack of training) passed him and signed off on his BOR. His book was presented to the SM to have all the blanks checked off and signed after the BOR was over. I just asked the SM tonight if Scout 2 ever had a SM Conference. The answer was, "No, but what was I supposed to do? The Committee already signed off on the BOR!" I don't think Scout2 deserved his Life rank; at least not that night. Am I off base for thinking this? I know there is probably not much that can be done at this point, but this is really disturbing to me. Have any of you ever heard of anything like this happening? ASM59

Hello, I have a quick question and would like to get as much feedback as possible. Do you have Committee Members who are regularly involved in your Troop Meetings and on Troop Outings? Our CC has told the committee that they are not allowed to be involved in such areas and need to stay out as that is the responsibility of the SM and ASM's. I know that Committee Members can not sign-off for any advancements, but I should think (and have seen in the past) that they should be welcome wherever and however they are willing to help. Thanks for your responses, ASM59

In answer to a couple questions: About the CC: She is a part of the in-fighting. She will admit that she has a "control problem" and most committee members feel that problem. She is not related to the SM but is wife of one of the ASM's Commitment Level / Training: Yes, there is a lack of commitment, and therefore there is no desire to take "my personal time" to get the training. There is only one Committee person who has a real desire to see that the Troop keeps going. She is the Outing/Transportation coordinator. If it were not for her help, I would not have been able to pull off some of the outings that we did earlier this year. There is also another ASM who would like to be more involved and who would even go get training, but his wife gives him a hard time about spending so much time with Scouting. So, based on trouble at home, I don't picture him taking the time to get trained. About the COR: She has know about the problems on the committee for about two years now. I notified her about the lack of commitment from anyone and the lack of help about one year ago. Nothing has been done to try to help from the COR's side. Where am I? Ready to find another Troop. ASM59

Eamonn, I was interested in you comment about being able to rent a 15 passenger van for $80 for the weekend. What rental company is that? We rented two 15 passenger vans for our Church Youth Group and the best we could find was about $100 per day which ended up costing aroung $300 for the weekend per van. Just curious... ASM59

Yes, there is a lack of shared vision, but mostly a lack of commitment. I mentioned that we have 21 boys in the Troop, and that we are utilizing every available parent (on Committee or SM/ASM). There simply is not one additional parent that we have available due to a variety of reasons. I didn't mean to imply that our PLC does not plan outings. When I said that our SM "planned the last two outings", I should have said that he was going to be the adult leader in charge of facilitating the outing. The PLC has been doing a great job of planning outings for the last year. They have planned outings for October & November, but I cannot get another leader willing to go so we'll have two deep leadership; so there may be no outings after September's outing. I really think the reason that we could not get parents to drive the boys 1/2 hour away is because the "Boy Scout thing" is not a priority or not as important as other things that they have going on in their lives - including the SM, ASM's, and Committee Members. It is not because of being "fed up with the adult leadership" yet. You see, most of the problems were not visible to anyone outside of the Troop leadership until this outing. This is because there were a couple of us committed to doing anything possible to make sure things didn't fall apart. In the past, I have missed family activites and other engagements for the sake of making sure that the Troop could have an outing. There have been other times in the past where I was not scheduled to be a leader on an outing and someone canceled at the last minute and I put the Troop (and the Scouts) ahead of my plans; even going when my son did't go. But lately this has happened too many times. I could have changed my plans and helped take the Scouts on last month's outing, but I felt it was time to place my priorities on my wife and not make her take a back seat to a Scout activity again. The fact that nobody else would volunteer to take the boys really shocked me and made me realize just how bad it is. ASM59

Yes, it is difficult to give the whole story, but as I mentioned, there has been in-fighting on the committee. Everyone thinks everyone else is out to get each other along with gossip and hard feelings. It is almost impossible to get cooperation out of anyone. I have talked to our CO Rep but she doesn't know what to do outside of getting rid of the whole lot of them (Committee, SM, and an ASM). If she did that, there would be only two or possibly three people left, and we have 21 Scouts. Like I said, we cannot get anyone to even help drive boys to outings when we have two leaders to take them. Our August outing was canceled due to not enough seat space. I was out of town with my wife for her birthday. The SM set-up the outing and then a few days before the outing told one of the other parents that his son would not be going. When asked if he was still going, he simply did not answer and made an excuse why he needed to go. The same committee member tried calling the next day and left a message on his answering machine. She was never called back despite multiple attempts and messages. She and another committee member decided to try to make the outing happen. They called the parents of all the boy who were going and not one of them would volunteer to drive a few boys (only needed room for 3 additional boys) 30 minutes from town. After they could not get one of the parents to do it, they called all other adults registered in the Troop who did not have a son going, only to be told no by all and at least one said, "My son's not going, why would I drive other kids?" We are planning to go to the Illini Jamboree in Rantoul, IL in September. The two of us that are planning to go do not have enough seat space to take all the boys that have signed up, so our CO is going to have one of their employees take us in their 15 passenger bus. This is a two hour drive each way. I really appreciate their willingness to do this. I asked our SM 5 weeks ago if he'd be able to go so we'd have enough seats. As before, he keeps avoiding the answer to the question, so we've made these other arrangements. This is really bad and very hard to explain. It goes deeper, but I think it's impossible to get a year's worth of history out... ASM59

Hello, I've been an ASM for 5+ years now. Similar to Lynda, I had a discussion with the SM (no longer with the Troop) regarding my role and what I could do to help. For the first year or so, I'd always check with him before doing much, so I'd be sure not to interfere with his wishes. I also had a "deal" with some of the other dads who were ASM's that I'd take care of anything to do with their son (including advancements and any correction/guidance) if they'd take care of the same with my son; that way my son wouldn't have to feel like Dad is always getting onto him on Scout outings. As far as your situation, I agree that someone needs to have an one-on-one discussion with this ASM to gently inform him that he is not working in the spirit of the program and see if he is willing to make some changes. ASM59