ASM59

Eamonn, I've found it more difficult as time goes on too. Sometimes motivation is lacking, and I really have a hard time tolerating some adults in recent years. Just the time that I'm ready to give it all up and walk away from Scouting, I get just the motivation that I need to keep going. It always comes from the boys. I travel in my job and sometimes miss a couple of weeks in a row. Lately, when this happens and I show up for the next Troop meeting I will be approached by one, two, or more boys to ask where I've been and to ask if I'll be at the next outing or next meeting. Th

I hear you Doc... I have also made the decision to ignore the Scouter Forums for a while; old habits die hard, so here I am. I am not as frequent of a poster as others here, but have had some extra time lately and have been able to do more posting than usual. I have been met with what I consider un-Scout-like responses too. I have received scathing personal messages for trying to defend myself. I feel like I am supposed to bow to the superior wisdom of others and never counter them with what I believe or what Ive read or what I know from experience. Like you said, I feel like I accid

boysmom..., Ditto what Beavah and OneHour said... I was an ASM who felt compelled to leave the Troop I was serving in. In my case, I left because of lack of support from my SM other ASM's and my Committee. Everything, became my responsibility and I simply did not have time to continue because of my job requirements. I made sure to have a discusion with each boy and his parent(s) before actually leaving. I would never have left without some kind of explaination to them and asking parents for help in the hopes that I would not need to leave. I tell you this, because I would ho

Beavah, I brought up the situation with our Adult Member (who yes did have a son in the Troop) and the death of his Father to simply point out to GW that there may be circumstances where you do need to go back on your promise (your word). I did not bring it up to say that someone should chastise the poor fellow for making a decision one way or the other. In fact, I think it would be cruel and heartless to do so. I don't know anyone who would think any less of someone in this situation for making the choice that he did. He, in fact, made the only choice he could; it was not his fault.

GW, I really hope it is as David said, that you're "just yanking our chains". Like I said, there are circumstances that would allow you to change your mind and back out of a commitment (go back on your word). To say, "can not going change anything?" simply seems to me to be insensitive to your other responsibilities. Yes, not going can change things or at least help. No, it cannot bring the deceased one back, but you could be available to Mom and the rest of the family. In the case I spoke of, the adult was the only Son in town available to help his mother make visitation and funeral

GW, What about if you give your word and then circumstances change? Is that acceptable? I'm only asking because I too find your position somewhat severe. I try to be a person of integrity, and if I give my word I typically follow through. There have been times however when I have had to change my position because of new information or because of a change of circumstance. An example (in this case not me) was one of our adult leaders promised to go to Summer Camp and then backed out when his father got very sick and actually passed away just the day before we were supposed to lea

Baden..., Thanks for clarifying. I understand you point about how some are reacting. You also pointed out that, "The fact is that scouting has survived a hundred years not because of a myriad of rules but because the program is FUN, the kids feel challenged, experience leadership, and develop a sense of who they are and what they are capable of achieving, period. What kind of boys a unit puts out is far more more important than how the leader interprets the patrol method or who can sit on a BOR." I can agree with your thoughts on this as long as people can also understand tha

I've resisted posting on this one since I saw that Beavah started it. But I just can't resist any more. I really have found parts of this humorous, while other parts I find confusing if not troubling. Baden says, "Anyone who volunteers their time to be a scout leader and works hard to create the right environment for our youth to excel in life should be commended and not denigrated by those whose own overinflated egos and self importance overides everything else in their lives." Please help me understand what you are saying. If I pull you aside at summer camp or a camporee to le

"Do yeh have a moral obligation to at least raise the question to those who are responsible? Quite possibly." Beavah? Is that you? Moral obligation? ASM59

I like the prospect of the on-line social networking presence. Even though Im old now, I have kept up on what the youth are doing. I have been to yearly Youth Ministry conventions that highlight changes in youth culture and the simple fact is that on-line is where most of them are for their social networking. Even the 20-somethings are on-line. It is absolutely amazing to hear about the dollars that organizations like M-TV are spending to research our youth culture in this country and around the world so they can understand their culture. Their budget for this is nearly unimaginable.

Beavah, Lets see, Ive posted about 280 times since November of 2003 and youve posted 2820 times since June of 2005. So who spends the time on forums? Most of my time is spent at meetings and in the field with the Troop. As I said in the other thread, I'm OK with disagreeing on something like this. But I am a firm believer in being able to disagree and have a respectful dialogue about the reasons that we disagree. It doesnt mean that I think youre horrible so please dont think I am saying that. But you have to understand that there are probably just as many who agree with my side of

Beavah, I'm OK with disagreeing on something like this. But I am a firm believer in being able to disagree and have a respectful dialogue about the reasons that we disagree. It doesnt mean that I think youre horrible so please dont think I am saying that. But you have to understand that there are probably just as many who agree with my side or somewhere in between our seemingly diametrically opposed positions. You say, So yeh see, for all you know, both da SE and the DE are followin' the law/rules. Well it occurs to me that based on how you say this that you dont know that they a

Neil..., I like vanilla ice cream; yeah I know it's kind of plain, but that's what I like. I really don't think we are that far apart. By calling someone on a violation, I simply mean speaking to them about it; not trying to get them in trouble, but simply giving information. This is in fact close to the first option that you mentioned. I simply want to make sure that the other person is aware that they are indeed violating the rules. In my experience simply pointing out the fact that the violation has been noticed is enough, or sometimes the person really didn't know that it was

Stosh, I think Lisa...'s point is that she would have to know the person driving her son. She may be perfectly OK with my daugter driving her son, and I'm sure she would be if she knew her :-), but she may know something about another 18 year old that would make her nervous about that person driving her son. If I had this situation in our Troop, I think I'd make every effort to accomodate the wishes of that parent and let their son ride with someone else. Now, if all the parents said this and having the 18 yr old drive is the only way for the outing to happen, then yes, I'd make

Eamonn says, "I know that at the end of the day the only person who can make any real changes to me is myself. Others can make me aware of things that I'm not doing right or point me in the direction to where the information I might need is. They can offer me advise. If I'm doing something wrong, they can report my wrong doings to the DE or the District Chairman. The District Chairman was the person who asked me to take on what I'm now doing. He can ask me to step down. The DE could report to the SE who can revoke my membership in the BSA." Eamonn implies that someone could report his wro

Neil..., So, are you saying it IS our (the vounteer at the unit level) place to call someone on a rules infraction? The disagreement on this thread regarding if it is our place to do that or not is the reason that I spun the other thread about the BSA Rules Police. I understand that in this case you are advocating going to the DE's superior to address this, but in order to understand where he received his permission, you would have had to have had a talk with the DE about the matter. I'm really trying to understand our (my) responsibility in matters such as this... A

Lisa..., Excellent point and no offense taken. Even though it's OK by the book, I would make sure that it was OK with parents before letting their boys ride with someone that young. I think your comments make perfect sense. ASM59

nld... Good point! I just looked and not only could she have youth passengers, but even 16 yr old youth drivers can have youth passengers under the conditions outlined. I really thought this was not allowed (especially the 16 & 17 yr old drivers). Anyway, my point still stands, as the practice in our unit is that two adults from the same family do not constitute adequate 2-deep leadership... ASM59

BW, You posted, "People who do not understand the relationship between operating within the rules of scouting and setting an example of good citizenship should be doing something other than scouting." What you say is true, and I can agree that the person to tell these people that they do not belong in Scouting is most likely the COR if the person is in a Unit position. Or if the person you talk about is at the Council/District level I suppose the responsibility of getting the person out of Scouting is one of the Executives or the Board. What about the case where you're on an ou

Neil..., Thanks for your explaination, very well thought out... Adams... Welcome to the forum and thanks for the added insight. Hope to see you posting more. ASM59

So Beavah seems to indicate that pointing out the fact that someone is breaking the rules is to be judgmental, at least in the case of the thread this is spun from. Eamonn says that he does not want to be judge & jury in cases like this, his duty is to follow the rules himself and hopes that others will do likewise. But where do we draw the line? On the one hand some want to accuse people of being judgmental for simply pointing out the rules and expecting others to follow them. On the other hand Im sure that there are some rules that if violated everyone on this board would stand u

Beavah, Once again you miss the rest of the story... After telling her that he did not condemn her, he told her to "go and sin no more". In that simple compassionate response He was acknowledging that what she had done was wrong and He was telling her not to break the rules anymore. No one is advocating stoning this DE for what he did, but I guess its too judgmental to simply point out that the rules are not being followed. What good are rules if there are no checks to see that the rules are being followed? ASM59

First, in our Troop the adults act as a Patrol of their own, so the adults do cook and are set up away from but within sight of the boys. The boys are left to cook in their Patrols on their own. If an adult is not registered but wants to go on a campout with his/her son, then the first time, they are a guest. They are informed that for the most part, it's hands off; no helping son set up tent, no cooking for son, no agonizing over son dying from eating what's prepared, etc. Most importantly, observe from a distance. The second time, they are invited to help the adults with the a

Neil..., I am curious about your saying that the BSA is a Consensus Organization and exactly what you mean by that. from Webster's Dictionary: Consensus 1 a: general agreement : unanimity b: the judgment arrived at by most of those concerned 2: group solidarity in sentiment and belief My first reaction to the term Consensus Organization is an organization that takes a vote on everything. Meaning that if there was a disagreement over the DE sleeping with the fianc, then we should assemble and vote on whether to allow it or not. If thats the case then I would not agre

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