KoreaScouter

It's kinda dangerous to re-enact things like this on an internet forum. I don't know OGE, his son, and wasn't there when it happened...very reluctant to pass judgement.

We've all said and done things we regretted afterward; my guess is that this was one of those times for this Scout. The "shared leadership" model we're supposed to be teaching them should give them, among other things, a method of solving problems that they can use in any setting, for the rest of their lives. Not sure I'd want every PL using the same method to get his Scouts to go to sleep. I wouldn't crucify him over it, but would recommend what I think are better alternatives.

We can chase our tails all day over whether this is covered in the GTSS, or if there was any criminal intent, or whether the bag was displayed vs. brandished. Who cares? It's a matter between OGE and his son, and I'm sure he dealt with it. Sure would make an interesting reflection, though, wouldn't it?

In "The Wealth of Nations", Adam Smith called it "enlightened self-interest". In other words, by investing my capital to build this factory, I certainly hope to earn a substantial return on investment, with the understanding and desire that those who work in the factory will also prosper enough to be able to purchase what they build. Entirely altruistic, which seems to be the standard some would hold an industrialist to? Of course not, but who is motivated solely by altruism (except maybe we Scouters)? Let's not fall into the trap of completely judging people's activities a hundred years ago by today's standards. Let's remember, many people back then who railed against industrialists did not think twice about sending their own children to toil in those factories. A hundred years from now, people will likely look back on us in horror that we allowed kids to play video games, deliver newspapers, or operate vehicles that weren't robotically guided.

Henry Ford is still regarded as a groundbreaking compassionate humanitarian for paying $5 a day to his factory workers at the turn of the century. His main motivation in doing so was to reduce factory turnover and save training and scrap costs.

I happen to be a big fan of Mr. Bennett, and many of his books (The Book of Virtues, the Children's Book of Virtues, the Book of Heroes, The Educated Child) are in our library. I have read to my childrens' school classes from The Children's Book of Virtues, and they have always been captivated (or, maybe it's just me!). If you study The Educated Child's recommendations on curriculum across grade levels, his excellent sections on private and home schooling as well as the good public schools he points out, you'll see he doesn't have an ideological bias, or an interest in sugar-coating anything.

As many Americans including teachers and parents deal with the date (as we will every year now), they're revisiting questions such as: How do we make this relevant to our kids; what can we do to make our kids resilient; what do our kids need to know and understand about America's place in the world? Mr. Bennett offers a foundation based on morals and patriotism. Check him out before you bash him.

Yaworski, your complaint about kids knowing about Japan but not California is common, too, and becoming more so as many states adopt standardized testing. The problem, as I saw it when we lived in Virginia, is that when the various state governments devise the standards, the history and geography portions in particular are heavily focused on the particular state you're in, at the expense of a larger world view. In the 4th grade, my son could define the five specific regions of Virginia, identify their borders, plot the fall line on a state map, and knew the three main factors that determined why the capital was sited in Richmond...but he couldn't find Alaska on a map. That is, until I used...ta-daa! William Bennett's "The Educated Child" to fill in those gaps with additional work (had to get that shameless plug in)...

KS

Kevin Eikenberry's Powerquotes are another good source, e-mailed to your computer every day. I cut and paste the good ones into a Word document that squirts into my Palm pilot whenever I sync it up. Do a google search and you'll find the site...

"Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs built the Ark; professionals built the Titanic."

KS

We're in a military retreat ceremony with the 51st Fighter Wing (Mustangs, "Tip of the Spear") on the 11th, then right over to our troop meeting. Actually, not a big deal for us here, since we do a lot of this commemorative-type activity, especially with Korean War 50th anniversary stuff going on until next summer, and our chartered organization is a VFW post...

For a SM minute, you may consider telling your Scouts what I told mine last year. To paraphrase: "Millions of families are wondering what they can do, and we're seeing new outpourings of patriotism, helpfulness, compassion, and service from many people to whom such activities were considered 'corny' on September 10th. As for you Scouts, keep doing what you have been doing and are doing. As Scouts, you are a constant example of patriotism, helpfulness, compassion, and service to your families, your community, and your country. Scouts are over-represented in the ranks of astronauts, FBI agents, and military service academies -- all examples of selfless service. As I look out among you, I see the American heroes of tomorrow."

KS

How about updating Photography MB requirements to include digital photography? Right now, requirements are all film. Digital's legit, growing in popularity, and comarable in cost. Scouts can also operate their own digital "darkroom/studio" with software that's just impractical with film...

KS

ScoutPro's got a point. The bottom line, I think is that "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink". Here's a recent case in point for us:

August is a tough month for Scouting here. Monsoon season to begin with, so some very horrendous weather -- I'm not just talking rain, but torrential downpours with localized flooding that kills scores every year; not the safest time to be out in the backcountry. Also, most of our leaders participate in a 2-week training exercise in August that takes us completely out of the loop. Nonetheless, we have a monthly activity policy (camp/hike/day trip) that relates to the monthly theme the PLC selected at the program planning conference. August was Citizenship. Our outing was a trip to the Korean National War Memorial in Seoul. Huge, multinational, commemorates the sacrifices people from 17 countries made during the Korean War, etc. Excellent temporary DMZ exhibit with truce village mockups right now, too. Anyway, typical push, with permission slips, troop/patrol meeting emphasis, and so on. Guess who shows, or more importantly, who doesn't? We had all experienced Scouts, all 1st Class or above, who didn't need the activity for advancement. Not one first year Scout...go figure.

So, I guess the moral of the story is, you do your best, follow the rules, present the program, but it's ultimately up to the individual Scouts to motivate themselves to take advantage of it.

Here's a statistic to consider...there have been over 100,000,000 Boy Scouts, but the Handbook has sold only 60,000,000 copies. So, 40,000,000 boys have been in Scouting without a Handbook? What does that tell you?

KS

My WB patrol had one female; the other two had two each. When we overnighted, she tented in our patrol site, in her own tent, by herself (she was fine with it). There were two females on staff, too, and they tented together. At my WB course, the staff campsite was both a physical and professional distance from ours -- can't be sure, but don't think they would have gone for an all-girl site away from all the men...

Methinks your staff flatters themselves. Perhaps I'm naive, but after 14 years of marriage, I haven't met a woman other than my wife who tickles my fancy, especially out in the field...yuck.

KS

I just conducted Troop JLT for the 3rd time today. Your SM sounds like the "big boss" model BSA warns us away from. We've all seen the type, and you've got one. Do you have a unit commissioner? If not, ask your District to assign one. With your luck though, it'll probably be your SM's brother-in-law...

KS

When I was a Cub leader, our committee had it set up so that the fund raisers were "apportioned" for advancements and other collective expenses, and the den dues were apportioned right back to the dens for their specific program requirements. As I recall, the Webelos den dues were somewhat higher because of the higher cost of the advancements and the more robust program they had...

KS

We reinforce self-reliance, teamwork, leadership, and character in the program. To me, it's no wonder most boys thrive and have a great time in a well-run Scouting program. It can be such a departure from the stand-in-line, no-talking, I'm-in-charge atmosphere in many of their classrooms, at least for the younger Scouts.

I talked with my wife about this (she grew up here), and she said that these diagnoses are virtually unheard of here, and she doesn't know of any Korean kids who are on these medications. I don't remember any such discussion with our Dutch friends and neighbors when we lived there, either. Is this an American thing?

Thanks for the replies; sounds like a heapin' helpin' of attention to detail and rule following is always in order.

On the cooking, I've personally become smitten with Dutch Ovens, and always encourage the Scouts to plan at least one Dutch Oven menu item we've never had before. Most popular (besides cobbler, of course): lasagna, pizza, cinnamon rolls.

Double Eagle: I lived in the Netherlands for 3 years, so I know all about getting a bill from the Hague if you wipe out a tree skidding on black ice, having 7 different trash cans, and not being able change your oil in your driveway. And, no "wild camping" allowed. Can be a real pain in the neck, but in many ways the tradeoff is worth it.

The local fire chief, ranger, land owner, tribal warlord, etc., is always a best last stop before striking the match. When we camp on Army property here, we need what they call a "hot work permit" before we build a fire, and they come out and inspect the site before we light it. Better safe than sorry.

KS

Okay, that was one I never heard of. This 'biz may be getting too complicated for me or maybe we're spoiled. In the troop I serve, we have one Scout with an athsma inhaler and one who takes allergy medicine in the summer time. No other meds, and I've got all the class 1/2/3's. I wonder how much of this is just kids being kids (you know, sometimes ill mannered, unruly, argumentative, etc.) and being portrayed as some kind of sickness? I'm not trying to trivialize anyone's challenges with their kids, so please don't attack me, but the definition of ODD sounds a lot like "teenager".

Bob;

Amen to your disclaimer to the casual "drop-in" who reads some of the doomsday stuff in here.

In a previous "life", I commanded a military training center. I was continuously perplexed and frustrated why, when my students (all military) returned to their home stations, the feedback rolled in about the overly tough schedule, the sadistic PT, the prison-like accomodations, the difficulty of the field exercise, blah, blah, blah. Ultimately, I realized that they earned zero "bragging rights" if the schedule was manageable, the PT reasonable, the accomodations comfortable, and so on. Only if it was near-Biblical hardship (or perceived as so by their buds) did they get the "props" for the experience.

Listen, I've seen the same syndrome among some Scouters. To get full "tough guy" credit and sympathy from your peers, you have to have some or ideally all of the following, whether you actually do or not:

- Disinterested CO

- Abusive DE

- Alcoholic unit commissioner

- Psychotic CC

- Condemned meeting place

- Lazy SPL

- All Scouts on behavior meds; at least half on probation

- No parents care

- All equipment broken or missing

- Fill in your own here ___________

I'd guess that with the very rare exception, things are mostly okay, we just tend to sensationalize to hold our audience.

KS

I've heard this forum referred to as an "online cracker barrel". Well, I gotta tell you, I've never seen Scouters say to each other at a cracker barrel some of the things we say to each other in this "online version". I've seen the same thing with e-mail usage at work. Not really facing someone when you want to insult them reduces inhibitions better than a six-pack.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to play Miss Manners here (or Mr. Manners, I guess), but Yaworski and NJ, if you two were sitting across from each other at a campfire, would you be talking to each other like you are here? If so, "no marshmallows for you!" (they can be used as weapons, you know)

KS

Let me quote the story with the above headline from Pacific Stars and Stripes:

"If the Boy Scuots are blamed for starting the blaze that blackened 14,200 acres in the Uinta Mountains area in Utah this summer, it will not be the first time they have had trouble with fires.

Utah fire officials say they received more complaints about illegal campfires at the Boy Scouts' camp than at any other spot in the region.

Although fire restriction notices are posted along roads leading to the camp and camp staff are notified of the ban, officials say the message often does not filter down to troop leaders and the boys themselves.

During the summer of 2001, state fire warden Scott Wheaton says he was sent to the camp twice to investigate reports of smoke during a period when fires were prohibited."

Now, I'll concede that not everything you read in the paper is true, but let's say that this is. Here's my thoughts; what are yours?

- How could camp staff not communicate site rules to troop leaders, or troop leaders to youth leaders?

- How could troop leaders, if informed, ignore the rules, especially when it comes to fire safety?

- How could troop leaders, if the rules were communicated to the youth, not follow up and correct violations on the spot?

- How could leaders not "be prepared" to extinguish the accidental or discovered illegal fire before it burns 14,000 acres?

In my business, we have a saying: "One oops wipes out a thousand attaboys". Here's a perfect application of that. I don't live in Utah of course, but I sure wouldn't want to be a SM trying to get a permit to use public or private land there...

You know, this is all about rule following. Some of us love to beat up on Bob White 'cuz he's so...procedural. And, most of us have seen the eye rolls and heard the air leaks at meetings when somebody reminds the group of SSD rules before the pool party, or the money earning application before the bake sale, or the tour permit before the outing, or in this case, earning the Firem'n Chit before carrying matches.

Out of curiosity, how do you do your cooking? We use mostly camp stoves, and a BSA charcoal table for the dutch ovens. Very little on-the-ground open-fire stuff. We'll use the fire ring at our troop campsite on base, but most other places we camp here don't permit on-the-ground fires. Do it and get caught, you won't be welcome there again, and I know my DE would rearrange the Scout Store to make room for the mounted-head trophy he'd have...

What in the world is "Oppositonal diviant disorder"? Unless I was napping, they didn't cover that at Wood Badge!

KS

We all know that a real Scouting program provides life skills they probably couldn't get anywhere else at their age -- Sctmom, your son is a case in point.

All kids are different in their maturity rates and in environments where some thrive, others feel held back. I would assert that our Scouts, with their exposure to outdoor skills, leadership, teamwork, responsibility, etc., at a young age, are better able to handle freedom and personal responsibility than many of their chronological peers.

Last year, his last in elementary school, my son did not enjoy what I would characterize as a babysitter mentality on the part of the three teachers whose classes he rotated among...overly controlling, corrective to the point of nitpicking, and worst in my opinion, trying through classroom rules to define their values and how they apply them. For example, no talking in line between classes. When a classmate (who happened to also be a Scout in our Troop) unknowingly dropped a ruler on their way to math class, and had a certain chewing-out coming from the teacher if he didn't have it, my son told him in a stage whisper he dropped his ruler (help other people at all times, right?). Well, he got pulled out of line and written up. I just had to shake my head and give him a pass on that one (and others, too, during the year). He tolerated school last year and did fine, but was definitely not looking forward to this year.

Now, in 7th grade, he's across the street at the high school. Completely different atmosphere and environment. Treated as young adults, given authority and responsibility, not supervised like jail inmates (okay, I exaggerate). He's enjoying himself, looks forward to going to school, and is really tackling the books this year.

Sometimes a change of scenery is all that's needed. All situations aren't that simple of course, but I don't think it's necessarily a case of traditional school or home school. Nothing wrong with any responsible decision, my point is there's more than just a couple possible responsible decisions...

KS

On Star Trek, Capt Kirk, as any good leader does, solicited opinions from many of his officers. Mr Spock always gave the unemotional, logical input. That's Bob, and I've used him as an AI system or human encyclopedia in the past, as we all have. The key is knowing his world view, and also coming from an experienced-enough position so you know the bold-type policies from the normal-type recommendations...

KS

In another thread, Le Voyageur mentioned the Jackie Cooper "Scouts to the Rescue" movies from the '30s (never saw any of them).

I know that on those rare occasions when a copy of Disney's "Follow Me Boys" is offered on e-bay, the bidding goes over $100 easy.

Who has any movies with Scouts in them, including the ones I mentioned above?

Have any of you found Follow Me Boys at any of the internet download sites where you can burn a movie onto a CD?

KS

The "social Darwinism" described here is, in my opinion, less prevalent in a well-run Scout troop than it is in a typical school, sports team, neighborhood, family, etc. And, when I've seen it pervasive enough that it gets my attention, it's almost always based on age and/or size rather than a rank or position.

Older/larger boys will often feel entitled to order younger/smaller ones about. Watch a playground for an hour and you'll see. In a Scout troop, however, authority is derived from position, and it's a position the Scout was elected to by his Troop/patrol members -- extra legitimacy. All leaders should be alert for "dominating" behavior by older Scouts, especially if it's outside the purview of the PLC. The venture patrol option exists to permit the older Scouts to enjoy age-appropriate activities, separate from the younger Scouts, without them feeling left out or watching from a distance.

I'll be the first to admit that awkward situations can arise when an older or higher ranking Scout has to follow the directions of a younger or junior ranking Scout who happens to be a green bar. As mentioned, that's real life, and most Scouts understand it and deal with it well.

KS

Well, it sounds like two different roads to the same destination to me. All leaders have standards; problems arise, in my experience, when they're not articulated clearly. The standards (like your 80%) can be a double-edged sword -- they can help define what's acceptable vs. what's not, but they can also hoist a leader on his own petard. For example, using the same example, what if the Scout attended 79% and all other indicators were positive? Obviously an application of discretion is in order, but you did say 80%...

BTW, I liked your suggestions on rewarding uniform wear...we've gotten better, but are not fully head-to-toe. I'm going to try free ice cream coupons or something to motivate them.

KS

paper clips hold things together, as do all dedicated Scouters. I'm thinking of changing my username to "Swingline"...then again, someone may take it the wrong way.

KS

Hey Bob;

Here's a hypothetical. If, as you suggest, you couled expect a prospective PL to commit to 80% meeting attendance, and he falls short of that (slightly or considerably), would you as SM still sign off the leadership advancement requirement for Star, Life, or Eagle?

If not, isn't that the same as an attendance requirement for advancement, which some of us think is reasonable but you do not? If so, aren't you concerned about the example set for those in the troop who will follow (i.e., "...the 80% was a requirement/standard/ commitment, but Joe didn't make 80% and Mr. X signed him off on his leadership requirement anyway...").

I'm not trying to paint you into a corner, since I know from some time in this forum that you always try to position yourself in the room so you have a door or window behind you rather than a corner. Rather, I'm seriously interested in your opinion on this question, since I have such a situation upcoming. Although I haven't given specific percentage requirements, one of my Scouts just hasn't attended/performed in his leadership position, and I'm pondering how to deal with it come SM conference time...

KS

We don't permit electronics at troop meetings, but they're not an issue anyway, 'cuz we keep it moving. On outings, they're okay on the bus/in the car with headphones. Once we get where we're going, they're stowed away. Although I discourage cell phone use by the Scouts, I will not overrule a parent who wants them to carry one. I have to remember we're in an overseas high threat area and despite our experience and caution, parents will worry and quick check-ins are the norm vs. calling girlfriends, etc.

I don't try to restrict leaders at all. They're grownups, and almost all have to have phones or pagers on all the time for military recall reasons, myself included. Pain in the neck, but thank bin laden.

I'm okay with books and board games. The chess set one of our Scouts brought to summer camp was the most popular free-time activity in our site.

I always take my PDA (all BSA requirements on it), a small portable radio (news & weather), and talkabouts...

These things are a part of their lives, and times do change. If they want to listen to a CD before they fall asleep, I don't think it'll make B-P roll over in his grave. Frankly, I've gotten to know many Scouts on another level by discussing their music and their taste in games (which relates to their taste in movies, etc) while on the bus, on the ferry, taking a break, etc. At 45, I became a Nickelback fan...they rock.

KS

We apply a FC emphasis, but without the individual tracking sheets. We use the large, plastic laminated, BSA graphic chart that lets you "X" off all requirements through Eagle palms. It's on the wall in our Scout hut, it's kept up to date, and everybody can see the "X's" marching across from left to right. Moreover, we follow the Troop Program Resources pretty closely, and the built-in troop meeting plans steer you toward activities designed to fit new/experienced/older Scouts. I think if your PLC focuses on the right monthly themes at their program planning conference, the adults support the plan properly, and the Scouts execute it, you can't help but provide redundant opportunities for all your new Scouts to earn FC in their first year.

As I mentioned in a previous post, we tried an NSP earlier in the year, but it didn't have the results we hoped for due to a less-than-dedicated Troop Guide and active-duty ASMs who couldn't devote themselves exclusively to the NSP. Also, our demographics didn't exactly match the handbook example of all 11-year old boys from the same feeder pack. Our new Scouts ranged in age from 10 1/2 to 13, and most didn't know each other before joining -- of 6 Scouts who graduated from our feeder pack, four moved away within a month (military overseas). So, we struggled with it more than some of you with different human factors. After summer camp, when they had most FC requirements complete anyway, we moved them to their permanent patrols. It seems to be working better, with the PLs and APLs assuming responsibility for tying up their advancement loose ends.

Having said that, I'm not ruling out trying the NSP again to complement our FC emphasis. I did learn a couple things though, and will make sure we don't make the same mistakes...

Hey, Bob and Ed, will you guys kiss and make up, for goodness sakes?

KS