KoreaScouter

Depending on what type of obstacle/agility course your Scout has in mind, you could also call the nearest Air Force Base. All have military working dogs who are required to be exercised/trained regularly on such courses, and all USAF kennels have these courses on premises. Tell me where you live, and I could point you in the right direction.

KS

Bob;

As I mentioned in my last post, I'm going to consider us just being on a different part of the supervision continuum. Having said that, your assertion that councils/districts are not measured on advancement stats is not correct. I invite your attention to the Index of Growth product that is completed each year by each council/district (BSA Form 28-1010 for the small format, 28-5320 for the large format, 1999 printing). Items 23 and 24 are "Advancements per 100 Cub Scouts" and Advancements per 100 Boy Scouts", respectively. The formulae for calculating this % is on the reverse of the form. The "National Standard" shaded for these measurements is 87% for Cubs and 60.4% for Boy Scouts. Sure looks like they're measuring advancements to me; and item #19 is percentage of BSA Quality Units, which is composed partly of advancement figures.

Now, you're a lot closer to Irving (literally and figuratively) than I am; has BSA National discontinued this measurement product and the National Standards associated with it since 2000? If not, I would submit that any professional Scouter whose council or district is consistently below National Standards in these measured areas is in for a lot of scrutiny (with emphasis on the first syllable) which will certainly cascade down to the units. If you don't agree, could I interest you in some pristine real estate near Korea's 38th parallel?

KS

Bob;

Advancement isn't one of the three aims, but it IS one of the eight methods through which we achieve the aims. You are absolutely correct when you say that advancement should not be an end in itself, and as an aside, I think we collectively put way too much emphasis on earning Eagle rank as an ultimate goal in Scouting. However, I think that offering a program and letting the advancement/MBs sort themselves out is somewhat utopian and way too laissez-faire for most if not all units, districts, councils, even BSA national. If it wasn't, why is rank advancement one of the criteria for Quality Unit determination, and why does National rate DEs in part on advancement stats? Moreover, a Scout who isn't advancing at the same approximate rate as his peers is more likely to leave the movement (re: your FCFY data on another thread, as well as BSA stats). Or, take care of the methods, Mr. Scoutmaster, and the methods will take care of the aims...

We are obviously not in the same place on the "advancement is important enough to supervise" continuum. Some Scouts need more than others, but all need some counseling to reach the nirvana of independent decision making you refer to. Heck, I serve alongside grownups who aren't there yet.

You often serve as the rudder on our "ship of opinion". It's a little unnerving to be on the other side of an issue with you -- can we just chalk this up as a declination issue; we're getting to the same place, just running different azimuths?

KS

Bob;

You can leave out the incredibly obvious; the simply obvious will suffice! I know full well there is no BSA literature restricting the number of MBs a Scout may pursue at any given time. Many in my troop are working on multiples, including those that take a long time (camping, hiking, etc.) and those that are partial carryovers from a roundup or summer camp.

My example of 15 blue cards was hyperbole -- sorry if it missed the mark (although one of my Scouts was trying to get 12 MBs in a one-week summer camp last year...his dad the Troop CC at the time was "facilitating" it).

If a Scout came to me for what I thought was an excessive number of blue cards ("excessive" is relative, based on each Scout and my knowledge of his interests and abilities), we'd have a SM Conference to figure out what was going on -- smells like a "badge hunt" to me.

I use a variety of heuristics when counseling my Scouts on MB pursuits vs. other portions of the advancement program, leadership, community service, involvement with family, spiritual involvement, sports, and time to just lay in the grass and find animals in cloud formations...all work and no play, etc., etc.

I think the loss as you put it lies in the fact that a Scout who bites off more than he can chew, under our approving gazes, gets overwhelmed, disillusioned, and is more likely to walk away than one who receives active guidance and counseling, and pursues the advancement program at a pace that's right for him. I've seen that happen firsthand, and it could have been prevented had leaders been leaders. BTW, my time's not an issue; if it was, I wouldn't be doing this.

Using your logic that we should not interfere in a Scout's MB pursuits, we would not only not interfere to "hold them back", but not interfere to "push them forward". In other words, if a Scout can apply for a combination of MBs at summer camp, one combination resulting in completing Star Scout requirements, and other combination resulting in him coming up short on Eagle-required badges, and he's careening toward the latter, we should just rubber stamp the blue cards he asked for and his rank advancement is his problem? Sounds a lot like the "controlled failure" model of teaching, which reminds me of watching lab rats trying to negotiate a maze. I won't participate in that -- I actively counsel my Scouts, pointing the way to the end of the maze...getting there is their responsibility.

Lest you think otherwise, I am not a dictator who approaches my position as would the foreman of a Soviet collective farm, controlling all the means of production. Rather, I recognize the fact that I was selected for this based in part on my maturity and judgement. I've disapproved Scouts' MB applications very rarely, they've always understood why, and we've found alternate badges that satisfied their interests or waited a while until a better opportunity to complete the badge came along.

At every SM conference I hold with my Scouts, a standard question I ask is "What can I do to be a better Scoutmaster?" After they get over the first-time shock of an adult asking them for advice on how to do something, they're brutally frank, as boys will be. None have ever complained I'm micromanaging their MB program...

We agree on one thing here, at least in part. The SM is not in control of the MB process after the blue card is signed. That's why many SMs, myself included, pay so much attention at the front end.

I'm all about following the rules. This may be one of those areas where there is no cookie-cutter solution -- different leaders have different techniques...and they're all following the rules.

KS

First, to answer the question, of course parents (as long as they're registered with BSA and approved as a counselor for that badge) can be MB counselors. Seems many of us have a sort of built-in "mistrust meter" in our unit policies that restrict this, restricts number of badges, etc. Great thing about the BSA system is that it's self-cleansing...at annual recharter time, if the troop committee determines a given counselor is not doing his job properly, that's the time to fix it.

I've really enjoyed the Bob White/Ed Mori tennis match here, and I've gotta go with Ed. While it's true (and admirable) that the advancement program is Scout-centered and self-determined, the unit leader fills a "firewall" role here. Using your logic, Bob, a Scout who wanted to apply for 15 merit badges simultaneously could demand signed blue cards if he's currently registered and counselors were available. This is ridiculous on its face. I've "redirected" Scouts to badges other than the ones they thought they wanted (Scouts didn't understand the requirements), throttled others back from what looked like a "badge hunt" to an endeavor more manageable/realistic/likely to succeed, or deferred a Scout until summer camp or the Troop monthly theme tied in with it (i.e., Fishing in September for us). Call it approval, counseling, supervision, or disco if you want to, but that's my responsibility. If I'm just rubber-stamping blue cards, any simian could be trained to do that. I repeat an oath every week that includes a promise to "do my best". If I knowingly let a Scout make a poor decision out of inexperience, ignorance, or overexuberance, then shame on me.

Do parents play a role? Certainly, but if they're not also Scouters, the inner workings of Scout Advancement can resemble the Papal election process for many of them -- they cede that supervision to the unit leader.

Do I sometimes not "approve" a Scout for a particular badge. Yes, but not often. For example, I didn't sign any Orienteering blue cards for summer camp this year, for a couple very good reasons that don't matter in this forum. All unit leaders, if they haven't experienced it yet, will learn this: Once you sign the blue card and refer the Scout to a registered counselor, you have no subsequent "vote" regarding the Scout's meeting the MB requirements. That's determined by the MB counselor. Even if you know that a counselor is mis-applying the requirements, you have no recourse...except at recharter time, or the next time a Scout asks for a signed blue card for that badge -- then, you need to find a different counselor for him.

KS

I put all our new Scouts in a New Scout Patrol shortly after taking over as Scoutmaster about six months ago. I had 8 Scouts in the patrol at the outset. Some were truly "new", and a few had a couple months in the Troop already. I did this based on BSA literature that encourages it, two ASMs I latched onto them, and a heartfelt promise from my newly anointed Troop Guide that he would jump into it with both feet.

The Troop Guide piece didn't work out as expected. This older Scout, who's a good kid and completed JLT, has the typical teenage distractions, missed some meetings/activities, and increasingly came to view himself as a "babysitter". This hurt the effort.

All the Scouts in the NSP were not a smooth, homogenous, single demographic. They didn't all come from a feeder pack, didn't have universal Cub Scout experience, and weren't all 11 years old.

The ASMs, being active duty military guys, weren't at every activity/meeting, either.

In short, I sometimes had to "detail" an older Scout or another leader to work with the NSP. Had I assigned them to permanent patrols to begin with, that support system would have been built in and automatic.

We also had problems when the NSP competed in interpatrol activities at troop meetings, or at camporee competitions. I had to be very creative when they consistently came up last in events that counted on Scout skills they simply didn't collectively have yet, or physical prowess inherent in the older Scouts in the permanent patrols. To be sure, the part time Troop Guide affected this, but in fairness, no Troop Guide can make an 11 year old perform like a 15 year old in a relay race without performance enhancing drugs -- you get the point. As much as the Scouts pay attention to the competition results, this was a much bigger deal than it may seem to an adult.

Since FCFY (as a program) is closely linked in my mind to formation and care/feeding of an NSP, I think it's success is dependent on several things happening simultaneously, and efficiently.

1. NSP is formed before summer camp, of boys from the same feeder pack. They will, by definition, know each other and be close in demographics.

2. Gotta have a good, dedicated Troop Guide.

3. ASM(s) who have both the inclination and the opportunity at the same time.

Would I do it again? Not under the same circumstances I had this time around. I believe I can give one or two new Scouts to each permanent patrol, with FCFY tracking sheets to supplement the patrol record book, and let them run it.

KS

BubbaBear;

Geez, you get away from a thread for a day and it gets completely away from you!

Unfortunately, I didn't get a chance to personally attend any World Cup games. Contrary to rumor, the tickets were available, and if you planned properly, not expensive. But, my military duties lie mainly in the area of anti-terrorism, and I was on a fairly short tether. The only way I could take my troop to summer camp last month was with a cell phone and the fact that our camp was in a military training area 20 minutes from home. All's well that ends well, though. No hooliganism, no terrorist activity, and the USA and Korea did better than anyone expected...I realize I'm off topic, but you asked!

Back on topic, a big Amen to Bob White. My $.02: Gay leaders are none of my business, unless I happen to believe the BSA assertion that they are not acceptable role models for youth...which I do. If I didn't believe that, I'd get into a different youth movement.

I'll certainly compromise on any number of things, such as aluminum vs. cast iron dutch ovens, or dome vs. a-frame tents, or whether cobbler should be made with fresh fruit vs. pie filling. But, I won't compromise my values, which is what this seems to be about. If BSA changed the national policy, would I stay or go? I don't know, honestly, and I don't know what my son would want to do. We've had several "birds/bees" conversations, but not on that specific topic as it relates to Scouting.

From a practical standpoint, a person can't just walk away from any setting where gays are present (assuming you know they're gay). A former school nurse (male) was quite open about it...drove a pink Dodge Neon, lipstick, rouge, the mannerisms, the voice, everything. What to do, find another school? He may have been gay, but was not a pedophile (as far as we know). School had pretty good YP policies; chaperones, open door, etc., so it wasn't an issue as far as that goes. Now, when it was time for the sexuality portion of their health curriculum, and he was one of the lecturers, I took advantage of my right to opt my son out of that block and discuss it with him myself.

I spent three years living in the Netherlands and serving alongside their military, which allows open homosexuality. That and other things took some getting used to, but get used to it we did...after all, had to go to work or go to jail. My kids were little then, so I didn't have to have any of the "lifestyle" discussions with them -- it would be more awkward now, I think, just as when you have to explain anything your kids see that runs counter to your beliefs and values.

Anyway, a gay Scoutmaster is no different from a straight one? I guess that's what gay sympathizers want you to believe. But, the hordes of deviants marching in gay pride parades last week don't support that argument. Are they the lunatic fringe? Maybe, maybe not, but they're getting all the press.

KS

Allowing COs or even councils to set their own policy regarding this would turn into a real briar patch. Here's why: A CO allowing their troop committee to "hire" gay leaders because it doesn't conflict with the moral beliefs of their families (assuming BSA permitted it) implies that such a decision has no consequence outside the troop. This is simply false, unless that troop participates in no district, council, regional, or national events.

How many of you have taken your troop to a camporee or other district-or-higher-level event in which every leader available wasn't pressed into service running a station, counseling a badge, leading a hike, supervising Safe Swim Defense, etc.? And, we leaders "consign" our Scouts to these leaders from other units because we know there is a single standard. I think you get my point. At a multi-unit event, how would the church-chartered troop reconcile their beliefs to consign their Scouts to walk the nature trail with the gay leader from the community center-chartered troop? Answer: they probably wouldn't...if they knew the leader was gay. Will they know? Maybe not, but the fact that a certain troop's CO allows gay leaders will not be a secret, and then you're reduced to suspicion and "only his hairdresser knows for sure". Either way, not acceptable.

In a curious way, I think the "states' rights" analogy works, in this sense. When two states have laws (councils have policies) that conflict with each other, the U.S. Supreme Court resolves it (BSA National policy prevails)...whaddya think?

Five Scouts from my troop are going to WJ in Thailand. For any of you old heads who may have been involved with a WJ in the past, a few questions?

1. Do you know how the WJ fee breaks out? It seems incredibly expensive, and no doubt a lot of that is for insurance and other costs that are transparent to those attending...not disputing them, just want to be able to offer something other than the deer-in-the-headlights look to families when they ask me...

2. What trading items are most popular and most portable? We want to send our Scouts with something that others will want to trade for. We can get anything made here in Korea, including unique caps, patches, and coins.

3. Any general tips/advice for sending Scouts to an international event with thousands in attendance?

thanks in advance,

KS

And, if they're water repellent (either naturally or with Scotchgard), they'll keep your noggin dry too. Ironically, Cub Scouts have an official blue-color boonie-type hat (very expensive, over $30), but Boy Scouts, with the more robust outdoor program, does not...go figure.

We sold popcorn in Virginia, but didn't do it here last year (first time popcorn sales were offered in Korea). We'll probably have to do it this year, since our other main fund-raising opportunity may not be available to us again.

Here's my question for any of you who may know. I've seen unit profits from 22% (Virginia if we took prizes) to 40%. Is this a local Council determination? I think last year, units here got just 15% (I'm probably off on this). It's hardly worth it for that, but for 40%....

KS

Thanks all for your feedback; I'm looking forward to reading your reports, too. I like the idea of a nightly cracker barrel before lights out...I may try to work that for Fall Camporee over here.

Double Eagle, appreciate the comments about Scouting overseas -- it is more difficult. We may end up in Europe and Transatlantic Council next summer after our little vacation in Korea.

About the watermelon: who knows, but if that's the worst thing I did during the week, I consider it a compliment!

KS

Got back Saturday night from Summer Camp. Four leaders took 12 Scouts from the troop (over 50%, but would have had more if it wasn't for vacations and summer moves). Plus, I had two Scouts and one leader on camp staff.

- Five of our six first-time summer campers received their Tenderfoot badges at the closing campfire, and our Scouts earned a total of 43 merit badges. We came home with some partials, but not too many.

- Very little homesickness; family night/campfire on Wednesday helped take care of that.

- No injuries, and the skeeters weren't too bad.

- I advised all our Scouts to do the academic work for their merit badges before leaving for camp, since the camp environment isn't conducive to report writing and bookwork. Guess what? Most of them didn't. Fortunately, we took our troop-owned folding picnic tables, which made the "homework" a little easier.

- Best campfire skit: A first-year Scout from another troop took one of the food-handling rubber gloves from dinner, inflated it, taped it to his stomach, and became "UdderMan", a summer camp bovine superhero. We were in stitches! It was original, virtually impromptu, and delivered brilliantly (in good taste, too). I promise you, you will see this lad on television in 15 years.

- First Class Trail portion was a disappointment, despite promised improvements. It was pretty good at TF requirements, but dropped off markedly for 2C and 1C. It didn't follow the schedule in the camp handout, and was arranged so that every Scout had to go to every session, no matter what his personal advancement status was. I've heard of a "station method" of doing FCT, where you have a knot station, a first aid station, a map/compass station, a citizenship station, a nature station, and so on. Have any of you seen this, and how does it work?

- We were a little heavy on staff. I say this only because one of my two Scouts on staff spent a lot of time hanging out in our troop campsite...happy to see him, but he seemed "underemployed".

- Our dining hall had half the seats it needed. For the first two days, the camp director ran it "boot camp" style (i.e., "throw it down your neck and get out", at high decibel levels). At a leaders meeting, we suggested another method which reduced the stress considerably.

- Some Safe Scouting violations; adult tobacco use near Scouts, axe yard compliance when the OA ordeal was chopping firewood, occasional buddy system lapses, adults in youth latrine (inadvertant; we camped in an Army training area complex and soldiers from other training areas who normally use the shower/shave buildings didn't know BSA rules). Again, no injuries or incidents, and with that many "moving parts", slipups are bound to occur; these were not by design. Have any of you seen these things at your camps?

- I took a notebook computer to track advancement data, but it doesn't have TroopMaster on it. One of the other Scoutmasters did have TM on his, and it seemed to make his life a lot easier.

- I got jumped by the DE for serving my troop watermelon one of our families brought out on family night; if I had told him I had it, he would have gone and gotten additional for all the other troops. Wasn't trying to hide it, just didn't think it was a big deal. I take his point, but am not losing sleep over it.

- We enforced a mandatory daily "showers before lights out" rule on our Scouts, and I'm glad we did. Made 'em change clothes too, so they looked (and smelled) as nifty as possible all week.

- Bottom line: Scouts had a good time and got a lot accomplished, made some new friends, and have a newfound appreciation for their mothers, home cooking, air conditioning, and washing machines.

KS

(PS: I give it a 7.5 overall)

Weekender;

Congrats on a great camp; ours just ended, and I'm going to post a report in a minute. Get ready for some questions from other forum members about the camo uniform items -- many extended cracker barrels here over that subject...

How do you keep your Scouts from heat stroke? Is prevention just a way of life for you guys, or what?

KS

Methinks this may be a case of adults making a mountain out of a molehill. Every Troop, every year, that bridges W2s from their feeder Pack (if they're lucky enough to have one) deals with this. In my experience, the Scouts themselves are eager to divest themselves of "little guy" stuff like the Whittlin' Chip (although many still want to do Pinewood Derby...).

In military working dog circles, there is an expression: "What goes down the leash, comes up the leash". In other words, the dogs (Scouts) pick up the attitudes of their handlers (adult leaders) and adopt them as their own. I recommend the Totin' Chip training be considered a rite of passage with enthusiastic support from all grownups, at least publicly.

Dan, you're going to encounter many examples of "We did this last year, why do we have to do it again?", such as the Tenderfoot camping requirement. As someone who walked your path not so long ago, I'd advise you to stick to the rules, even if they seem to peg your logic meter. As a distillation of 92 years of experience by millions of Scouts and Scouters, it's done that way on purpose rather than as an accidental oversight.

Good luck in your new position!

OGE;

I completed the new WB course in early May. Other posters are right, it's not about secrecy, it's just that laying a full syllabus in front of you will ruin the course and prevent the necessary human dynamics from occurring the way they're supposed to. You'll see this for yourself. I have an MBA and years of management and leadership experience -- nonetheless, I "surrendered myself" to the staff...I'm glad I did. One member of our class in another patrol (very Type-A) tried to game it by front-loading everything, having all his ticket items written before he showed up, having all the answers, etc. He was very frustrated and disappointed, in large part because there is no personal or programmatic reward or advantage to doing so. In fact, it's almost certainly counterproductive.

I didn't even think about ticket items until the last couple days (we did a week straight rather than two weekends -- tyrrany of distance in the Western Pacific). All were approved by the staff without rewrite.

My advice: relax, have fun, make friends, and hold judgment on the course until after you're finished...

On the rare occasions when I've encountered the "what's his position?" question, the pack/troop recharter report has always been the tie-breaker. In other words, the position in which you registered in January is how Scoutnet carries you until the recharter next January. I think they have your fellow Scouter on a technicality. If the Tiger knot was important to me, I wouldn't have rechartered as the Cubmaster, even if I was doing the Cubmaster's job in a de facto sense.

You're dead on regarding multiple-hat leaders. A couple years back, I was our Pack's Committee Chair, Cubmaster, Treasurer, and Events/Activities chair for a several month period. I know, I know, I was writing letters to myself and had a velcro position patch...believe me, it was not by choice. Also, I've always agreed to serve in whatever capacity the Pack/Troop needed me. If I didn't have enough tenure in the position for the knot, then the heck with the knot, or I'll go back later and earn it if I want the fruit salad.

Wish you luck; as long as you're not trying to double-dip, I don't see why your training guy is being hardheaded...

Frankly, there's not a lot to teach, aside from the components of fitness and nutrition. The bulk of the badge work is the initial, interim, and final fitness testing, and the 12-week personal exercise program that each Scout must develop, follow, and complete. Importantly, the requirements don't prescribe group workouts and testing (in fact, you shouldn't do it that way in my opinion). Since each Scout will develop a program that will optimize his own strength, flexibility, and endurance, they're generally best pursued individually or as buddies, particularly the 2-week tests.

Whoever your counselor is, I'd recommend they arrange the initial requirements, then closely monitor each Scout's exercise program. The worksheets at MeritBadge.com are pretty good for doing that.

I think this is a good time of year to start the 12-week program. My son did his beginning in October, and the 12 weeks turned into 19. His exercise program was dependent on outdoor running for the aerobic endurance, and he had a number of "weather cancels"...live and learn!

Ron;

There is always a lot of those type items on e-bay; have you ever checked there?

Yaworsky;

While I appreciate your point about mollycoddling, I pretty much disagree with the premises you make in your last two posts.

First, the scenarios you use as examples include other Scouts teasing (latrine), a Scout-initiated act (skunk), and an unintentional, unplanned minor hardship (runny eggs). None of those are institutional, condoned, leader-driven behavior -- that's what I think we're talking about here. Second, your assertion that this is an indicator that Scouting is a refuge for non-athletes and the socially impaired just doesn't hold water, at least in the troop I serve. I've got all-star football players, varsity basketball stars, martial artists, etc. Our Scouts have many friends, in and out of Scouting, and as a group, are highly regarded by their teachers, their coaches, our chartered organization (VFW), and the community at large.

If the Scouts in the troop you serve are not athletic or have impaired social skills, may I be so bold as to offer some advice? First, introduce more physical games into your troop meetings, at the preopening and interpatrol activities. Encourage your Scouts to earn the Sports, Athletics, Communications, Public Speaking, and Personal Fitness merit badges. Second, encourage your Scouts to perform community service in settings where they must interact with people other than their patrol buddies. Every summer, a number of our Scouts serve as community volunteers at hospital clinics, the USO, the family support center, and other locations. It works for us; it may work for you too.

...not trying to teach them to be women, just real men.

I just got Brad Andrews' patches, and they're great! I've sent him two already and will follow up with more after this weekend. For St. Louis and Portland ME, I'll get one out to you guys, too...

I'm trying to find out the best way to store/display these. They don't fit in the standard trading card/MB certificate binder sheets...

I think some of this discussion amounts to splitting hairs, such as whether or not singing for a lost item is actually "hazing" or just "teasing". I say, who cares?

My concern is not so much with the book definition as it is with the question "Is there a better way to achieve your goal?" The troop I serve sang for lost items when I came on board, and I've moved us away from that...

-Lost items were handed over to a leader, who scheduled the singing at a troop formation before dinner or whatever. Could have been hours before the Scout was reunited with his flashlight, canteen, first aid kit, whatever. Not optimal, even if he was careless to lose it.

-The joy of watching another Scout squirm to get his compass back encouraged what I call a "gotcha" mentality..."It's Bill's canteen, grab it so he'll have to sing!" Lessee, "...help other people at all times...A Scout is helpful". It didn't seem to me we were reinforcing those values.

So, what to do instead? I encourage Scouts who find something that belongs to someone else to return it to him as quickly as possible, and let me know. At the next troop formation, I mention the act as a good turn, calling forward the Scout who found/returned the item. Does the troop know who lost his whistle? Sure. But, there's no question over hazing, since we don't put him through a performance. He's reunited with his item as quickly as possible, and the Scout who found it is publicly praised.

This seems to do the right things for us...

KS

Rooster;

There's gotta be an Indian Lore tie-in there somewhere -- ride that horse as far as you can!

Personally, I'm a big fan of online resources. I'll stick my neck out and say we're further from Irving than anyone else -- it's not the end of the world, but you can see it from here! The supply lines are long, too. Many of the printed resources are hard to come by, and to visit our council, I need an international plane ticket and a passport. Online access to everything, including national by-laws and the other Jedi Knight stuff would be great.

We do a lot of online training in my military field, and it's easily verified through things like online testing...

Bob, I do agree that there are many bold-print policies that are not universally followed, but there are many grey areas subject to adult interpretation too. In the area of hazing for example, I've seen Scouts expected to sing in front of their troop, camp, etc., to recover a personal item they dropped, misplaced, whatever. Is this hazing? Apparently, many think not, because it's a common practice. I happen to think it is (and not very Scoutlike, either when you consider the Oath and Law), and do not permit it in the troop I serve. Yet, it's a grey area...

KS

The 2002 catalog has a cool-max t-shirt with a logo on it; I don't know if it's embroidered or not. The price is reasonable, too, compared to most commercial products I've seen.

Good discussion by all. When we ground our son, it's from all activities EXCEPT school, church, and Scouts. Why? Basically, I think the aims/methods are a better use of his time than sitting in his room, regardless of the "atrocity" he committed. Moreover, I personally believe the Scout has a responsibility to his patrol/troop which he partially fulfills and internalizes by showing up. Plus, call me a caveman, but boys are not designed for sitting indoors on their cans for extended periods -- they gotta smell the air, hear birds, step in dirt, stuff trash in their pockets, and handle sticks on a regular basis or it screws up their heads. Even when my son's grounded and can't do things he wants to do, I'll detail him to things I want him to do (take out the trash, wash the van, go get a paper, take this tour permit to Mr. V's house)...sorta like a minimum custody prisoner.

An important follow up question would probably be "Why is he grounded"? In many cases, the behavior that resulted in the grounding would be eventually modified by continuous exposure to Scouting activities.

Having said that, I would never presume to lecture a parent on how they should discipline their son. I am occasionally asked, in which case I freely opine. Otherwise, I take it in stride.